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06-01-2000, 12:37 AM

Maha you haven't gone halfway towards dispelling any of my point's either, aside from saying that you disagree & recounting the individual details of the scenes at length & in a in a kinder light from your point of view.
This is not dispelling, this is re-telling (or if you will, re-spinning) in your point of view.I'm not sure why you think this "proves you right", all this is is you seeing this movie in a different way the I did.....your dissagreement proves your correctness?
You claim that Tall's few moment's of regret give him a more human light then "the ridiculous German", yet in that very small scene Spielberg showed me more insight into the nature of man & war then malick did in the first hour & 1/2 of his film: after quietly whispering "The Jew" into death, as he leaves, the german simply walks past the crumpled boy on the stairs showing the dual nature of "humanity" that we use at times like this(war) in order to mentally survive & certainly it showed that the faceless "blurr" in the crosshairs are not all of them just "filthy evil nazis" but doing the same thing that most of us were doing in that war, doing what we were told & trying not to die or go insane.
All the individual moments that you see as cliche' build up to create a whole picture in my mind & the "campfire" you speak of is just one moment in a film filled with subtle characterization that you see as thin : as he looks at the Hitler youth knife Mellish realizes that they have been killing 14 to 16 year old "boys" instead of men : Hanks is once again a teacher but this time he is "teaching" boys how to kill more effectively adding to his rapid breakdown : Ryan grappling with the idea that so many have died so one man could live & the hypocritical concept behind this.
To me it is a whole meaningful picture while you simply dismiss it as "hollywood trash" bookended by violence.

You say that you don't understand what I mean by cliche' Ok, the cliche' of Penn's character in TTRL for example is that he seems to be there not only as an "everyman" for the viewer to identify with but mainly to give Witt someone to talk to in order to get some of his philosophy out in actual conversation & not just in voice-over. This is one of those "tool's" I was talking about.(by the way I don't agree that Witt was the "everyman" in this story,I think Penn was,Witt was the philosopher soldier which if you've ever read french novels of war is also....in a way...a cliche') I don't mean that a cliche' is a bad thing in all cases, indeed I think in films about war(or within war's if you wish) you simply can't avoid them.
However I do NOT see TRL as a war cliche' in itself as you aparently seem to think I do, however I do think that it does HAVE war cliche's in it as I have pointed out (no matter whether you wish to see it as being totally without cliche's or not, I see them.).
I see Ryan as a war movie which also has cliche's in it but unlike you I also see the whole as more important than the pieces and NOT just a cliche'd War Movie to get a hard on to at the orgasmic violence.
The Thin Red Line to me was a great movie that for me crumbled under it's own lofty ambition.

Let me repeat this....I never said your respect for Line was wrong, I just didn't agree with your total dismissal of Ryan as a cliche' trash or your opinion that Line was without cliche'.

You will disagree of course & you will of course try to dismiss my opinion.....that's your nature I guess. Seem's to me it's more of an Alpha dog ego trip then a debate anymore. I don't feel the need to "prove" anything to anyone,Maha & I'm not playing at "territorial pissings" like some of you seem to be, I was just defending my point of view from your attacks.
But I keep coming back after saying I'm through now don't I?
well......

------------------
-Dougpirana
" It's not my damn planet, MONKEY BOY!"

P.S. If I never use the word "cliche'" ever again it will be too soon.....uh......that's a cliche' isn't it? D'OH!

[This message has been edited by dougpirana (edited 05-31-2000).]

06-01-2000, 12:37 AM	#23 (permalink)
dougpirana	Maha you haven't gone halfway towards dispelling any of my point's either, aside from saying that you disagree & recounting the individual details of the scenes at length & in a in a kinder light from your point of view. This is not dispelling, this is re-telling (or if you will, re-spinning) in your point of view.I'm not sure why you think this "proves you right", all this is is you seeing this movie in a different way the I did.....your dissagreement proves your correctness? You claim that Tall's few moment's of regret give him a more human light then "the ridiculous German", yet in that very small scene Spielberg showed me more insight into the nature of man & war then malick did in the first hour & 1/2 of his film: after quietly whispering "The Jew" into death, as he leaves, the german simply walks past the crumpled boy on the stairs showing the dual nature of "humanity" that we use at times like this(war) in order to mentally survive & certainly it showed that the faceless "blurr" in the crosshairs are not all of them just "filthy evil nazis" but doing the same thing that most of us were doing in that war, doing what we were told & trying not to die or go insane. All the individual moments that you see as cliche' build up to create a whole picture in my mind & the "campfire" you speak of is just one moment in a film filled with subtle characterization that you see as thin : as he looks at the Hitler youth knife Mellish realizes that they have been killing 14 to 16 year old "boys" instead of men : Hanks is once again a teacher but this time he is "teaching" boys how to kill more effectively adding to his rapid breakdown : Ryan grappling with the idea that so many have died so one man could live & the hypocritical concept behind this. To me it is a whole meaningful picture while you simply dismiss it as "hollywood trash" bookended by violence. You say that you don't understand what I mean by cliche' Ok, the cliche' of Penn's character in TTRL for example is that he seems to be there not only as an "everyman" for the viewer to identify with but mainly to give Witt someone to talk to in order to get some of his philosophy out in actual conversation & not just in voice-over. This is one of those "tool's" I was talking about.(by the way I don't agree that Witt was the "everyman" in this story,I think Penn was,Witt was the philosopher soldier which if you've ever read french novels of war is also....in a way...a cliche') I don't mean that a cliche' is a bad thing in all cases, indeed I think in films about war(or within war's if you wish) you simply can't avoid them. However I do NOT see TRL as a war cliche' in itself as you aparently seem to think I do, however I do think that it does HAVE war cliche's in it as I have pointed out (no matter whether you wish to see it as being totally without cliche's or not, I see them.). I see Ryan as a war movie which also has cliche's in it but unlike you I also see the whole as more important than the pieces and NOT just a cliche'd War Movie to get a hard on to at the orgasmic violence. The Thin Red Line to me was a great movie that for me crumbled under it's own lofty ambition. Let me repeat this....I never said your respect for Line was wrong, I just didn't agree with your total dismissal of Ryan as a cliche' trash or your opinion that Line was without cliche'. You will disagree of course & you will of course try to dismiss my opinion.....that's your nature I guess. Seem's to me it's more of an Alpha dog ego trip then a debate anymore. I don't feel the need to "prove" anything to anyone,Maha & I'm not playing at "territorial pissings" like some of you seem to be, I was just defending my point of view from your attacks. But I keep coming back after saying I'm through now don't I? well...... ------------------ -Dougpirana " It's not my damn planet, MONKEY BOY!" P.S. If I never use the word "cliche'" ever again it will be too soon.....uh......that's a cliche' isn't it? D'OH! [This message has been edited by dougpirana (edited 05-31-2000).]