At this stage in the game...

[Sehnzeleid]

Are there any practical advantages of choosing a dedicated processor that can process the HD/BD next gen audio formats as opposed to a A/V receiver that can do the same, or vice versa?

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

Are there any practical advantages of choosing a dedicated processor that can process the HD/BD next gen audio formats as opposed to a A/V receiver that can do the same, or vice versa?

I'd imagine right now, probably not until you hit whatever mark price/soundwise that becomes 'diminishing returns' for you. That probably makes no sense but hey..I'm tired.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's probably no different than if you substituted HD/BD with SD DVD. The seperates tend to focus on less and thus can perform 'better'. I single quoted "better" for Tom.

[chlngr1970]

I think right now is a bad time to get a processor for the advanced formats till the better vendors weigh in, if that is what you are after. Right now, the receiver market has the next gen cornered. I think the New Onkyo is the only Pre/Pro out now that you can get. One might be better off getting a receiver till the Pre/Pros catch up.

One thing to remember, Pre/Pros are better than receivers because they have less work to do. It does switching, and processing, where as a receiver does switching/processing/amplification...

so...

Lets see what the likes of Parasound, B&K ( I'm realy looking foreward to the Ref 70 ) Rotel, and Adcom ( Hey, I like Adcom ) have to offer. I'm looking at the possibility the new Denon Pre/Pro...Kinda pricey at $7K, but I think with all it does, it may very well be worth it.

j

[Ruined]

The DTC-9.8 is a killer pre/pro. Not sure why you wouldn't go for that one at its awesome price.

That being said, Pre/pros now offer all the same stuff they did 10 years ago. Less noise due to being in a different box & on different circuitry than the amp. While I wouldn't spend $3000 on a pre/pro like I did around 6 years ago, I think the $1500 for the DTC-9.8 is a fair price and I won't feel ripped off when the inevitable HDMI 1.4 comes out (surely with DUAL audio codec streaming for PiP or something of the like, I'm sure).

[Sehnzeleid]

Thanks guys!

Originally Posted by Ruined

While I wouldn't spend $3000 on a pre/pro like I did around 6 years ago, I think the $1500 for the DTC-9.8 is a fair price

I noticed Troxell has the Onkyo PR-SC885P for $1,300, backordered. I was going to wait to see what Outlaw Audio has got in the works, but I doubt they'll be able to beat $1,300...

[chlngr1970]

This looks like the same thing, just has ears for rack mounting. Dunno if it is the same internaly or not, but probably...

j

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

I was going to wait to see what Outlaw Audio has got in the works, but I doubt they'll be able to beat $1,300...

Here's the last update on their forthcoming processor, 10/07 email update:

So what's next?

The Outlaws are hard at work creating new world-class products with all the bells and whistles, but the development time line is a long one and some of the critical path items are outside of our control.

For example, as recent as late last month, we learned that the newest version of the Cirrus Logic CS49700, the DSP chip powering these new products, will have an eight-week delay in the production schedule for samples. This cascades to a greater delay in the schedule, since the samples need to be in hand before we can finalize the board layout and freeze the firmware/software. We could use the current version of the DSP chip, but we want to deliver the increased stability and lightning-fast acquisition of the latest "lossey" and "lossless" audio formats transmitted over HDMI.


Similarly, our plans also include new, advanced codecs that are not currently available in any product. Unfortunately, there is also a delay in the delivery of the final microprocessor code for some of these codecs to the chip suppliers. All of us at Outlaw are waiting for final word on how to implement them. The net result is that our new processors will not be scheduled for production until some time late in the first quarter or early in the second quarter of 2008. To bring these processors to market sooner would deprive us of offering you some hot new features and the advanced stability that depends on component-based hardware, not upgradeable software.

[Ruined]

But the question is, if Onkyo/Integra have come out with a solid product at an awesome price (that even features Reon deinterlacing/scaling), why bother waiting and likely paying more? Just so your equipment matches? Not the best choice IMO.

[Sehnzeleid]

I dunno, it just seems like a better idea wait awhile longer to see what they deliver...

Also if the Model 990 is any indication, their new processor might arrive below the cost of the Onkyo/Integra.

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

Also if the Model 990 is any indication, their new processor might arrive below the cost of the Onkyo/Integra.

Here's why I say that:

Outlaw Audio Model 990: MSRP: $1099

Sherwood Newcastle P-965: MSRP $1500

Sherwood Newcastle R-965: MSRP: $1999

Boston Acoustics AVR7120: MSRP: $2999

[Sehnzeleid]

Digging around the biggest problem is there is the very limited selection...

HDMI 1.3 Receivers with full TrueHD/DTS Master decoding:

- Onkyo TX-SR605 Receiver ($400) -- Cheapest option but no Pre-Outs.
- Onkyo TX-SR705 Receiver ($630) -- Has Pre-Outs.
- Pioneer Elite VSX-91TXH ($1,000) -- Has Pre-Outs.
- Denon AVR-2808CI ($1,200) -- Has Pre-Outs.

Other Receiver Options that support 7.1 PCM via HDMI but no TrueHD/DTS Master decoding:

- Yamaha RX-V661 ($500) -- Has Pre-Outs but looks incredibly cheap.
- Sony STR-DG1000 Receiver ($535) -- Has Pre-Outs
- Pioneer Elite VSX-90TXV ($650) -- Has Pre-Outs
- Any Denon Receiver with HDMI.

HDMI 1.3 Processors with full TrueHD/DTS Master decoding:

- Onkyo Professional PR-SC885P Processor ($1,300)
- Integra DTC-9.8 Processor ($1,600) (same as the Onkyo, longer warranty)

So I'm pretty much stuck waiting right now because I could go with a cheaper receiver, but I really want a processor. I'm looking forward to see what Outlaw Audio does with their next processor. Emotiva is another cheapie option, but their stuff looks manufactured from the cheapest materials possible. Don't think I can afford an Anthem Statement processor.

Of course, I can just keep browsing AudiogoN for legacy equipment.

[Sehnzeleid]

Also the question of whether TrueHD/DTS-HD decoding is essential over having just 7.1 PCM handling?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

Also the question of whether TrueHD/DTS-HD decoding is essential over having just 7.1 PCM handling?

Nope. Having the player decode is a better experience.

I sent this idea to MS/Toshiba via Amir & Andy Pennell. Hopefully they will implement it in a future firmware as it would make bitstream decoding a more viable option:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=951612

Although I'm sure the CEs would much rather have HDMI 1.5 come out with dual bitstream decoding & mixing

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Nope. Having the player decode is a better experience.

Only for HD DVD though?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

Only for HD DVD though?

Blu-Ray will be in the same situation once they get their shit together. There is no PiP extras on BD now because they are behind HD DVD technologically.

I haven't noticed any quality difference where the signal gets decoded, either. After all, its not like a D/A conversion is taking place, all thats happening is that the file is getting unzipped in the player instead of the receiver.

[Sehnzeleid]

I guess I shouldn't wait then, all it seems I need is a HDMI 1.1 receiver.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

I guess I shouldn't wait then, all it seems I need is a HDMI 1.1 receiver.

Well, from what I saw, the price difference between an HDMI 1.1/PCM5.1 preamp/processor and the DTC-9.8 was minimal - plus the DTC-9.8 adds stuff like Reon upconversion/deinterlacing that older pre/pros do not have. Right now I am having my Integra DTC-9.8 upconvert and deinterlace all sources to 1080p, and this works awesome! Also, the integra can be had for $1500 w/ haggling.

Yeah, you can get a receiver cheaper but then you lose part of the quality advantage of seperates (granted, it is the smaller part). So it made sense to go with the DTC-9.8 even if I don't use the next-gen audio decoding.

Also, if you read that link I posted before, it can be possible that bitstream could be made useful in the future if the firmware of HD/BD players was tweaked in the fashion I described.

[chlngr1970]

Did I miss some price ceiling or something?

Denon AVRs 2808CI, 3808CI, 4308CI, and the new 5308CI ( coming soon ) as well as the AVP1 HD. Pioneer Elite VSX 92TXH, and 94TXH. Marantz SR 7002, and SR 8002...This is just a quick search. There could be more, like somethig new from JVC, or Sony

j

[Ruined]

All of those are receviers though, no? Except for one Denon model which is largely overpriced IIRC.

[chlngr1970]

Of the ones I listed, yes. And, from what I saw of the AVP at my Denon training, that thing is F'ing AWESOME! When I have the funds, I will have no problem paying twice what you paid for your Onkyo with my employee pricing for the Denon AVP.

j

[Sehnzeleid]

Dammit, why does the Japanese Onkyo 605 have preouts but the domestic 605 doesn't.

[Sehnzeleid]

You know, I might just watch for falling prices on the Onkyo 805...

Heck, even $760 with free shipping seems great from a $1k MSRP...

It's doesn't seem much "worse" than the Integra/Onkyo processor (I couldn't care less about video ability) and it's currently hundreds less...

Some of you guys have the 805, right?

[Monrozombi]

I hate to ask, but what are Pre Outs?

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Monrozombi

I hate to ask, but what are Pre Outs?

They're RCA (or XLR) outputs that allow the receiver to be connected to an external amplifier to bypass the receiver's internal amplification, rendering the receiver to processing/controlling/volume duties.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

It's doesn't seem much "worse" than the Integra/Onkyo processor (I couldn't care less about video ability) and it's currently hundreds less...

The video ability is actually REALLY REALLY REALLY useful. Deinterlacing is the #1 biggest cause of shitty looking upconverts. If your processor has Reon, then that means ANY HD/BD player becomes a damn good upconverter.

Also, now that I'm in the BD camp and the first 1.1 disc has come out, I can answer your question about PiP on BD.

On BD bitstreaming nextgen codecs becomes more useful. The Panasonic BD30 works exactly how I told Amir & Andy Pennell the HD-A35 should work. Basically it bitstreams when watching just the movie, but when you engage PiP it switches to in-player decoding. With this in mind, a receiver with TrueHD decoding becomes much more useful, especially when cheaper BD players often only have lossy decoders internally.

[brian]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

You know, I might just watch for falling prices on the Onkyo 805...

Heck, even $760 with free shipping seems great from a $1k MSRP...

It's doesn't seem much "worse" than the Integra/Onkyo processor (I couldn't care less about video ability) and it's currently hundreds less...

Some of you guys have the 805, right?

Yup. I got a refurbished Onkyo 805 from Onkyo's website refurbished for around $620 last month. The unit looks new.

[Monrozombi]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

They're RCA (or XLR) outputs that allow the receiver to be connected to an external amplifier to bypass the receiver's internal amplification, rendering the receiver to processing/controlling/volume duties.

so you run wires from the pre outs to an external amp that then is connected to your speakers?

So this is for using your receiver's fullest potential interms of decoding the incoming video signals etc?

[SilentBob]

Originally Posted by Monrozombi

so you run wires from the pre outs to an external amp that then is connected to your speakers?

So this is for using your receiver's fullest potential interms of decoding the incoming video signals etc?

Well at my theater we have some Yamaha receiver with the pre-outs. We use the receiver pre-outs for our live satellite shows. Basically we run by satellite and the Opticle sound cable from the Sat. Receiver is connected to our Yamaha receiver. We then use the pre-outs to feed the Dolby 5.1 sound to our actual Movie Theater speakers for the event by analog cables. We need an extra device box to create a proper cable connecton to the theater receiver itself because of its connection port. Still in the end the receiver pre-outs helps send out the 5.1 sound to the movie theater audience. So its not about the video but it's about the audio

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Nope. Having the player decode is a better experience.

Why do you think this? Is it a matter of maturity of decoders in the player vs relative immaturity of decoder in the A/V receiver?

Peace...

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Ruined

The video ability is actually REALLY REALLY REALLY useful. Deinterlacing is the #1 biggest cause of shitty looking upconverts. If your processor has Reon, then that means ANY HD/BD player becomes a damn good upconverter.

Yes, but the various advantages of the 805 compared to my Harman Kardon 235 seem worth more than the Reon. I'm unsure it's worth a couple hundred more either going with the pro or the 875 merely for that.

[Sehnzeleid]

Made a comparison for the hell of it.

Onkyo TX-SR805

- THX Ultra2 Certification (w/ THX Cinema/THX Surround EX)
- Dolby (Digital, EX, Pro Logic IIx), Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS (ES, Neo:6, 96/24), DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master Audio, up to 7.1 PCM via HDMI and multi-channel outputs
- Precision: 24-Bit/96kHz A/D, 24-Bit/192kHz D/A TI Burr-Brown (All Channels)
- Audyssey MultEQ XT
- Faroudja FLI2300 (all video inputs scaled to 720p)
- 3 HDMI 1.3 inputs, 1 output
- 3 Component inputs / 1 output
- 3 Coaxial Inputs / 2 Optical inputs
- 8 R/L Analog Inputs
- 6 Composite / 6 S-Video Inputs
- 7.1 Multi-Channel Inputs / 7.1 Pre-outs
- Phono Input
- FM/AM
- RS-232 Port
- IR
- Satellite Radio-Capable (XM / Sirius)
- Three-Zone Operation
- 1 Switched AC Outlet
- Power Output: 130 Watts RMS/Channel x 7 into 8 Ohms, All Channels Operating
- MFR: 10 Hz - 100 kHz (+ 1 dB, - 3 dB)
- THD: 0.08% (20 Hz - 20 kHz)

Harman Kardon AVR 235

- Logic7
- Dolby (Digital, EX, Pro Logic IIx), DTS (ES, Neo:6, 96/24), up to 7.1 PCM via multi-channel outputs
- Precision: 24-Bit/96kHz A/D, 24-Bit/192kHz D/A
- EZ Set
- 3 Component inputs / 1 output
- 2 Coaxial Inputs / 2 Optical inputs
- 7 R/L Analog Inputs
- 4 Composite / 4 S-Video Inputs
- 7.1 Multi-Channel Inputs / 7.1 Pre-outs
- FM/AM
- IR
- 2 Switched AC Outlets
- Power Output: 50 Watts RMS/Channel x 7 into 8 Ohms, All Channels Operating
- MFR: 10 Hz – 130 kHz (+ 1 dB, - 3 dB)
- THD: 0.08% (20 Hz - 20 kHz)

[Monrozombi]

Originally Posted by SilentBob

Well at my theater we have some Yamaha receiver with the pre-outs. We use the receiver pre-outs for our live satellite shows. Basically we run by satellite and the Opticle sound cable from the Sat. Receiver is connected to our Yamaha receiver. We then use the pre-outs to feed the Dolby 5.1 sound to our actual Movie Theater speakers for the event by analog cables. We need an extra device box to create a proper cable connecton to the theater receiver itself because of its connection port. Still in the end the receiver pre-outs helps send out the 5.1 sound to the movie theater audience. So its not about the video but it's about the audio

So if I don't have an external amp to use I really don't need the pre-outs then?

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Monrozombi

So if I don't have an external amp to use I really don't need the pre-outs then?

Nah, but it does provide potential future flexibility. Most (some contend all) receivers can't reach the level of sheer power and sound quality of separate dedicated amps. The only two receivers I've heard repeatedly praised as approaching or having the qualities of separates are the Pioneer Elite VSX-59TXi Flagship (a friend has one, amazing) and Denon AVR-5805.

[Sehnzeleid]

I can get the Onkyo 805 for $650 right now...

[Sehnzeleid]

I'm looking at the Marantz SR7002

Noticed 6th Avenue Electronics has a coupon code for this receiver, expires 2/29. Doesn't seem like a bad deal considering what other units around the price offer.

[Sehnzeleid]

6th Avenue has the Onkyo 875 Silver for $1,066 shipped with coupon code AFL5.



It has what I want and it's the right color.

TEMPTATION!

Sorry I'm so wishy-washy, my friends are getting pissed at me too because of this thread...

[chlngr1970]

DUDE! Just get the Onkyo, and be HAPPY!!!

j

[Iguana Man]

I would take that ugly sticker off the faceplate, first.

[chlngr1970]

Well, I think the dealer might have a problem with that

I still say buy the damn thing and make yourself happy

j