SA-CD over HDMI questions

[Shadowman82]

As I'm sure most of you are aware there are several players on the market today that can pass SA-CD via HDMI which of coarse is much more convenient than all the analog cables . From what I've seen however most players that can do this convert the signal to PCM .

Does that in anyway negatively affect the sound of the SA-CD ? Are there any players that can leave the DSD intact and still pass the signal over HDMI ?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

As I'm sure most of you are aware there are several players on the market today that can pass SA-CD via HDMI which of coarse is much more convenient than all the analog cables . From what I've seen however most players that can do this convert the signal to PCM .

Does that in anyway negatively affect the sound of the SA-CD ? Are there any players that can leave the DSD intact and still pass the signal over HDMI ?

HDMI 1.2 spec includes support for DSD bitstream. However I don't know of any player that actually uses it.

If you are an "SACD Purist," converting DSD to PCM essentially defeats the purpose of SACD's philosophy (lack of "brickwall" PCM filter), and you are in essence converting DSD to what DVD-Audio was. You will be banished from the kingdom of SACD for even considering such a thing. And, both SACD Purists and DVD-Audio purists would probably argue based on audiophilic (is that a word?) theory that you'd end up with a lower quality output in the end by converting DSD to PCM as opposed to just mastering to PCM from the start. It would be a big no-no in the audiophile "what is cool, what is blasphemy" book.

However, in reality, there no audible difference between the two anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Sony's most popular SACD player (PS3) converts DSD to PCM. If you do hear a difference, it is probably more placebo/mental block than actual audible difference. Its also worth mentioning that DACs have advanced and it is likely a modern DAC decoding PCM will do a better job than an older one decoding DSD in general... When you use those analog outputs you are tieing yourself to the aging DACs in your SACD player.

In conclusion, I say go with the more convenient HDMI that likely is also using superior DACs if you have a decent modern receiver and probably offering superior sound because of the evolution of DACs over time (nothing to do with the format or way it is delivered).

You must realize that I really had to restrain myself in this post to not bring up you know what and how it makes my entire post irrelevant

[Taxi]

Honestly, though, Ruined, your apparent need to keep repeating this mantra when we're all perfectly aware that that's how you feel.. Well, it's getting more than a little tiresome.

[Shadowman82]

lol yeah he sure does seem to love talking about that . However he did answer alot of my questions .

The biggest problem with my SA-CD playback is that I have to pass it via analog and my Pioneer DVD player is neither new or a Elite Model so it's not that great when it has to handle the Audio . It's very much lacking in bass which I read was a problem in the internal DAC of the lower priced Pioneer players .

Sure I could buy an upconverting Elite Player that can handle SA-CD too but since I don't have a HDTV there is little point , especially considering the particular model that seems good runs at 300 bucks .

[Ruined]

Buying new gear at this point specifically for SACD aside from aforementioned reasons is not a good idea not only because the format is pretty much dead but it will also be replaced by BD-Audio in a year.

[Shadowman82]

I wonder if Blu-ray Audio will ever really be used . It would no doubt face the same stigma as SA-CD and I really don't see why you would need 50GB of storage space for Audio . SA-CD provides 5.1 channels of lossless Audio , can't get any better than that .

[Shadowman82]

Apparently some Oppo and Pioneer players truly do pass DSD over HDMI without converting it to PCM .

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

Apparently some Oppo and Pioneer players truly do pass DSD over HDMI without converting it to PCM .

The question is do any modern receivers still bother having the logic to decode it?

[Shadowman82]

Yeah some of the higher end receivers from the likes of Pioneer and Denon do . SA-CD is not as dead as you think .

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

Yeah some of the higher end receivers from the likes of Pioneer and Denon do . SA-CD is not as dead as you think .

My Integra DTC-9.8 actually supports it but if you want any of the goodies like Audyssey, Bass Management, Time Alignment (i.e. necessary things) it does DSD -> PCM conversion. You can decode DSD directly but then you lose all of those things. I assume the Pio/Denon receivers are the same way, so again you end up in the same boat of PCM conversion - as losing BM, TA, and room EQ will do far more harm to the end output than any type of format conversion will.

[chlngr1970]

Is there a real difference between 5.1 PCM over HDMI or DSD via the analog 5.1 outputs? I mean, we are talking a digital transmission of a digital signal vs. analog conversion. I don't have the stuff yet, but I gotta believe if SACD DOES sound better, it will sound better via HDMI 5.1 PCM, than analog...

What did I just say???

j

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

Is there a real difference between 5.1 PCM over HDMI or DSD via the analog 5.1 outputs? I mean, we are talking a digital transmission of a digital signal vs. analog conversion. I don't have the stuff yet, but I gotta believe if SACD DOES sound better, it will sound better via HDMI 5.1 PCM, than analog...

What did I just say???

j

Well, again I think most of this discussion is pointless given the AES recent journal article findings on high-res audio, so I'd just say that the difference will be whichever has better DACs - the player or the processor. The rest IMO is audiophile theory that has no basis in reality (i.e. straight DSD 1bit sounding significantly different vs. PCM 24/96 when both were proved audibly no different than PCM 16/44.1 nevermind being any different from each other).

Also, with processors unable to apply advanced processing like room eq, BM, TD, etc, to a direct DSD stream, the DSD -> PCM conversion seems the most logical route prior to applying those effects. And, since players generally dont have things like room eq and advanced processing, i'd guess a modern receiver will sound better playing a DSD->PCM conversion than any player's analog output doing straight DSD. Again, this is just a function of things that do make an audible difference (i.e. room eq), vs the high res inter-conversions which have no significant impact on the audible signal.

[Shadowman82]

We're not interested in your damn AES study in this thread Ruined .

They way I'm running my SA-CD is via analog and it runs in the Pure Direct Mode on the receiver which means there is no processing being done so I have to assume I'm getting DSD as it was meant to sound .

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

We're not interested in your damn AES study in this thread Ruined .

Its relevant to answering your question. I did not bring it up by name, but referred to it in general in order to accurately answer your question.

They way I'm running my SA-CD is via analog and it runs in the Pure Direct Mode on the receiver which means there is no processing being done so I have to assume I'm getting DSD as it was meant to sound .

Pure Direct is going to harm the final sound more than it helps, because if it is truly direct you lose all of your bass management settings, delay times, room eq, etc which will have much more audible & negative of an impact on the final sound than a PCM conversion would have. Pure Direct seems like it would be great, because you are getting pure unprocessed master; but, unfortunately since we don't live in an aneochic chamber with all speakers same volume & distance you *need* the processing in order to properly balance/eq/bm/align the channels. Even if you had 5 completely full range speakers at identical distances and a sub, you'd still audibly benefit from the processing to balance out the reflections and frequency dips/spikes of the room.

[Shadowman82]

My point is this thread is not about the validity of high resolution Audio .

As far as what you said goes since I have to run my SA-CD over analog I can do no bass management to begin with . I think I once heard that SA-CD in it's unaltered form , in other words if you leave DSD intact has an automatic crossover of 80hz .