By The Power of Grayskull: Subwoofer Watts!

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I admit this is a problem I have. Credit cards make keeping in mind a budget more difficult

Oh, make no mistake, this is going on a card.

[PunkMunkey]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I admit this is a problem I have. Credit cards make keeping in mind a budget more difficult

Yes...they do tend to let the mind wander . Luckily/unluckily, my wife lets me know when my mind is wandering a bit too far .

[Pirate]

I just measured the area where the sub would go. At 23" deep, the sub is going to be pushing it. I'm worried it's going to be an eyesore. And with $53 shipping, it's going to be an expensive demo if I don't like it. I wish I lived in a real city . . .

[Wirehed]

...use the money to move...get a better job...

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Wirehed

...use the money to move...get a better job...

Be careful or you'll wake up to find me in your kitchen . . . eating your Cheerios.

[Wirehed]

Originally Posted by Pirate

Be careful or you'll wake up to find me in your kitchen . . . eating your Cheerios.

That would be fine. We'll work on your resume in the afternoon.
I might even be able to line up some writing interviews for you.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Wirehed

That would be fine. We'll work on your resume in the afternoon.
I might even be able to line up some writing interviews for you.

Can I wear a bowtie?

[Pirate]

Ok, I know I’m probably driving some of you crazy (feel free to slap me if we ever meet), but I wanted to throw one more option into the ring.

Axiom EP350

It’s a little more powerful than the Hsu and it goes to 18Hz. And it’s smaller by about 3 inches, which would actually be helpful. It is about $250 more, though. I know Axiom isn’t a "known" subwoofer maker, but if their subs are anything like their other speakers, I can’t imagine I wouldn’t be impressed.

Review

[PunkMunkey]

I think that the only drawback between the Axiom and the HSU is probably the extra $250...on paper they seem to have very similar capabilities. The one bonus of the Axiom is the fit and finish of the product...it'll definitely look more "refined" that the HSU offering. I also like the aluminum cone woofer used in the Axiom...not that there's anything wrong with the carbon fiber reinforced paper of the HSU, I just think that the big silver cone looks better .

If the Axiom works better for you in terms of size and you can stretch the budget accordingly then I say go with the Axiom...they should be on par with each other (judging from specs alone that is).

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Pirate

Well, my experience with mic'd room EQ's has never been all that great, so that's not a feature that would sell me. As we discussed above, I don't mind crawling the floor and then doing the EQ myself.

And what happens if the sub crawl puts your sub right in front of your door?

I don't think you are giving enough credit to the built in eq and it's potential results.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

And what happens if the sub crawl puts your sub right in front of your door?

I don't think you are giving enough credit to the built in eq and it's potential results.

If the room was that off, I doubt even the EQ could save me.

[Ruined]

Yep a sub crawl is no replacement whatsoever for a sub with builtin EQ. But you will see that in time Pirate, and eventually when you get a sub like the 1200R after countless disappointments you will understand what me and Iggy are talking about.

Most rooms have a very skewed response curve, and simply finding the best spot to place the sub will most definitely not fix the sound curve. Especially when your placement is limited to only 3 positions.

[PunkMunkey]

Well, you don't really need built in EQ though...one could pretty much get whatever sub they chose and add Velodyne's SMS-1 or perhaps a Behringer Feedback Destroyer into the signal loop to EQ their sub response.

I like the convenience of built in EQ, but theres also an inherent risk with anything builit it...should part of the unit fail, the whole unit would be rendered useless. With an outboard EQ and sub combo, if either failed, you'd only need to replace the failed piece of equipment and not the whole setup.

The SMS-1 is supposed to be a pretty awesome and user friendly sub EQ solution...perhaps Pirate will opt for one should he be dissatisfied with his sub response...but for now, lets just help guide him toward a real sub, he can decide whether or not he wants to EQ it after he's had it a while and can evaluate it's performance in his own room.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Yep a sub crawl is no replacement whatsoever for a sub with builtin EQ. But you will see that in time Pirate, and eventually when you get a sub like the 1200R after countless disappointments you will understand what me and Iggy are talking about.

Not that I don't appreciate the input, but that sounds a bit outrageous me.

Pirate you will fail and be unhappy with whatever you buy unless it's the brand that two people on this board have recommended.

I somehow doubt that all of the audiophiles out there who own Hsu's, SVS's and other such brands would agree with that assessment. As PM just stated, there are ways to get the performance you want without the built-in EQ.

[Pirate]

Can someone explain what these mean?

Anechoic Resp. +/- 3dB: 28 - 150 Hz
Room Resp. + 3dB/- 9dB: 18 - 150 Hz

Which is the actual real world measurement of how low the sub will go?

[PunkMunkey]

Originally Posted by Pirate

Can someone explain what these mean?

Anechoic Resp. +/- 3dB: 28 - 150 Hz
Room Resp. + 3dB/- 9dB: 18 - 150 Hz

Which is the actual real world measurement of how low the sub will go?

Anechoic Response = Frequency response of the sub when measured in an Anechoic chamber (one that does not reflect soundwaves).

Room Response = Typical response you'd expect when properly placed in an actual room (one that does reflect soundwaves and exhibit some room gain...room gain is the amount of "boost" you can expect from a sub in certain frequencies due to reflections and such).

The Room Response is probably closer to what you could expect in the real world, but it will still vary depending on the size of one's room and the sub's placement of course.

[Wirehed]

That depends on the room the sub is in.

Anechoic refers to what the sub can do in a specific, special, defined, sound room.

[Pirate]

What is the "+ 3dB/- 9dB" bit?

[EM3]

Is that anything like a standard error of measurement? You know like gas mileage will vary depending on how you drive.

[Iguana Man]

Now now friend. I think the suggestions from Ruined and I are sound, but will admit my experience is far less than his. I gotta believe Ruined was being half tongue in cheek with the comment you appear to take offense with.

From my standpoint, I suggested Velo' with built in EQ because it can tame the curve with ease. I own a Velo without an eq and love it but logic tells me if I had the eq, it would sound even better. Since I was unaware of the external Velo SMS-1 unit, I assumed it had to be built in. My bad and thanks PM, I'm going to look into that puppy.

I ain't kissing Ruineds butt here but knowing how into audio he was and still is, I simply believe an eq given your placement options is the way to go. Whether that's HSU with SMS-1 or another SVS or whatever.

I truly want you to be happy with your sub purchase and hope I don't come off biased and misinformed.

[Wirehed]

Originally Posted by EM3

Is that anything like a standard error of measurement? You know like gas mileage will vary depending on how you drive.

That's how I read that.

[zepplongfellow]

Instead of EQ have you thought of bass traps they took out a huge dip in the 60 hz range in my room and got me to a almost flat state.

[firestorm]

Originally Posted by Pirate

What is the "+ 3dB/- 9dB" bit?

Originally Posted by EM3

Is that anything like a standard error of measurement? You know like gas mileage will vary depending on how you drive.

I think it depends. A measurement of error may be part of it, and since no speaker is entirely flat, you usually see +/-3db ratings. i.e. The output in the specified range falls within + or - 3db throughout that range. But, it could very well be that the sub falls off before 18Hz, so, in order to maintain that 18Hz spec, they drop the spec down to -9db. Since you begin to not hear low frequencies at or above 20Hz, and instead feel the pressure waves, that's not necessarily a bogus spec, but it may not be very meaningful either, at least not in direct comparison with other subs. That's if what I'm saying is true of this sub. I believe I've seen Paradigm use similar specs to illustrate that a speaker can reach down low with some authority, but they also include a standard +/- 3db spec for comparisons.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by zepplongfellow

Instead of EQ have you thought of bass traps they took out a huge dip in the 60 hz range in my room and got me to a almost flat state.

Did you DIY them?

[Ruined]

The main issue with bass traps is they look fugly as hell. Good bass traps are also expensive, from brands like Auralex and whatnot. Even with bass traps, though, you are still not guaranteed success as they only help in certain types of room problems.

Also, the common standard for measurement with speakers is +/- 3db. If a manuf used a more lax measurement as you listed it was likely used to make the sub appear to go lower than it actually does, or in other words exaggerate the sub's actual capabilities. I would consider the specs you listed as a 28hz sub, it sounds like they are trying to bullshit their way into 18hz response which it appears the particular sub cannot actually deliver. And that is also proves my point about how easily specs can be distorted to suit a manufacturer's needs.

As for a seperate EQ module, the one listed costs $749. For the price of that added to your sub you could have had a 1200R. And there is no guarantee an external box will integrate well with any sub. Some subs might not be able to handle the manipulation EQ can provide, bottoming out, overheating, or becoming distorted in some cases. If a sub was built with EQ in mind, obviously that sub speaker and its amp will integrate well with the EQ.

And, re: "audiophiles," I hate to say it but a very large percentage of them are totally clueless. I'm not saying that is the case in regard to said brands, but following "audiophile" advice will these days often will not land you on the best choice. I've tried to dissociate myself from that term which I used to use many, many years ago, because it is starting to become synonymous with those who buy into snake oil. All "audiophile" means today is someone who spends a crapload of cash on audio - it doesnt necessarily mean they spent it on audio wisely.

[PunkMunkey]

Originally Posted by Ruined

As for a seperate EQ module, the one listed costs $749.

Velodyne SMS-1 at OneCall for under $600 with free 3-day FedEX shipping.

Originally Posted by Ruined

And there is no guarantee an external box will integrate well with any sub. Some subs might not be able to handle the manipulation EQ can provide, bottoming out, overheating, or becoming distorted in some cases.

When an EQ is used improperly (overly judicious boosting), the results you listed are definite possibilities. However, the the same results are also quite possible when manually tuning a sub with built-in EQ (not sure if you can manually tune the Velo 1200, but there are some subs out there that have that capability)...all those results are also possible using no EQ at all, simply overdriving a subwoofer. When using the products as they are intended and within their limitations, the likelihood of damaging you equipment is greatly reduced.

Originally Posted by Ruined

If a sub was built with EQ in mind, obviously that sub speaker and its amp will integrate well with the EQ.

For the most part this is true (assuming that the engineering of said product is sound)...but, again, what happens when the EQ or the sub fails? The whole unit is useless. By separating out the processing, one is left with more options should failure (or upgrade-itis) occur.

Originally Posted by Ruined

All "audiophile" means today is someone who spends a crapload of cash on audio - it doesnt necessarily mean they spent it on audio wisely.

On this we totally agree...this is the whole reason I've said what I've said to Pirate in this thread...because for his situation and budget he should have all the options presented to him in order for him to make the wisest decision possible for his particular scenario. There is no ONE solution for everyone, we've all got our own opinions, biases and preferences...Pirate just has to take all that into account and make his decision based on what we offer him.