subwoofer disillusionment.

[jayleaf]

hi everyone...i've been reading forum posts for a while now, but this is my first post. i currently have a polk psw250 subwoofer, but i was hoping to upgrade to a better model after reading various comments and reviews. i found myself very dissappointed when i actually started listening to different subs. i took my own sub into a high end audio shop so i could compare. I listened to a paradigm 10" priced at $499 and a martin Logan selling for $599. in all honesty i couldn't hear any difference to speak of. the friend i was with couldn't either. so i listened to $1500 martin logan grotto. and while we both heard a slight improvement it was hardly worth spending that kind of money. i thought i was going to be blown away by the improvement. don't know if appreciating subwoofers is an acquired taste or an overated piece of audio equipment. i'd love some feedback on the subject. i'm pretty confused about subs at this point. thanks

[Ruined]

The key to finding a good subwoofer is not only getting one that sounds good in a room with perfect acoustics, but also a room that has poor acoustics.

If you want dramatic improvement, go for the Velodyne SPL-1200R, which is a powerful sub that has automatic room EQ bultin. Set up the mic at your listening position and it will calibrate itself to your room's frequency response curve. I bet you will see a huge improvement with this calibrated sub.

[RaceTripper]

Room placement and proper calibration are everything when it comes to subwoofers. I have a $2000 Dynaudio Sub500 and I can easily make it sound like a $200 sub if I don't set it up for the room.

[jayleaf]

thanks for the responses...i figured with the room conditions being the same for all the subs tested, i would have noticed a big difference between a $1500.00 sub and my considerably cheaper polk 250. and i don't mean to diminish the polk because i think its a decent little sub but for over a thousand dollars more you'd think even in a showroom there'd be a wow factor. judging by your replies i've got a lot to learn about subwoofers.

[RaceTripper]

Originally Posted by jayleaf

thanks for the responses...i figured with the room conditions being the same for all the subs tested, i would have noticed a big difference between a $1500.00 sub and my considerably cheaper polk 250. and i don't mean to diminish the polk because i think its a decent little sub but for over a thousand dollars more you'd think even in a showroom there'd be a wow factor. judging by your replies i've got a lot to learn about subwoofers.

Only the best of the speciality audio/video store even bother (or know to) setup a sub properly. So auditioning at any of the chains is really pretty unrevealing if not totally useless.

[jayleaf]

Originally Posted by RaceTripper

Only the best of the speciality audio/video store even bother (or know to) setup a sub properly. So auditioning at any of the chains is really pretty unrevealing if not totally useless.

the place i went to was actually a high end audio store, not a big box retailer. the city i live in isn't that large and this is the only place in town that sells top end equipment. i hope to make some road trips to visit some shops elsewhere. when listening to subs in a store what should they be doing to ensure i'm getting the best performance from the product?

[RaceTripper]

Originally Posted by jayleaf

when listening to subs in a store what should they be doing to ensure i'm getting the best performance from the product?

Ask them what they did to set it up. If they did nothing more than just a calibration using a SPL meter that's probably not enough. You really have to experiment with room placement, and do a lot of subjective tests with real source. Even if a sub is calibrated, it can still be far from optimal. Proper sub setup is somewhat involved.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by jayleaf

thanks for the responses...i figured with the room conditions being the same for all the subs tested, i would have noticed a big difference between a $1500.00 sub and my considerably cheaper polk 250. and i don't mean to diminish the polk because i think its a decent little sub but for over a thousand dollars more you'd think even in a showroom there'd be a wow factor. judging by your replies i've got a lot to learn about subwoofers.

Well, the problem is this... Lets say the acoustics of your room has a big dip in frequency response from 20hz - 40hz, or maybe a big peak from 50hz-80hz. Guess what, any sub is going to sound weak in that room unless there is some compensation performed in that frequency range. That is where EQ comes in. Getting a sub like the Velodyne SPL-1200R which has builtin EQ and calibration mic allows you to compensate for that room dip when the sub runs through its automatic frequency calibrations as you set it up for the first time. A similar $1500 sub without EQ would sound like crap in comparison to the calibrated SPL-1200R.

[esc]

hey. welcome aboard. I am partial to Velodyne subs myself, but any that you mentioned from the Martin Logan to a Paradigm would be an excellent buy.

Its probably been mentioned, but proper placement of a sub within a room is hugely important. It means the difference between room shaking, uncontrolled bass that's just annoying and distracting during a film to mediocre wimpy bass that can barely be felt.

Get something powered within your price range that is a very good quality brand (and heavy... heavy usually means quality.) Then try doing the 'subwoofer crawl' to properly place the unit in your room. Its shocking what a difference a few inches of placement makes.

This video has some AMAZING info.


An excellent quality sub cable is a good investment too. Don't skimp on the cost of a quality sub cable.

[jayleaf]

i appreciate the comments i have gotten regarding subwoofers. i'd love to hear the velodyne model you were talking about Ruined, but i suppose it wouldn't matter unless it was specifically adjusted for my room. plus i can't find a place around here that sells velodyne. i might have to travel a bit to find a shop. one last question then. i've noticed when i've set up my polk in or near a corner i notice a real concentration of bass behind the sub. is this a sign of poor placement. what should i be listening for. again thanks for your thoughts.

[Iguana Man]

Jayleaf, the sub you refer to from Ruined apparently adjusts itself based on your room via a built in equalizer.

Also, corner placement of subwoofers tend to reinforce bass. Not saying the bass is better, just reinforced if ya know what I mean.

This thread has peaked my interest in the sub crawl vs. eq based subs and which is easier/costlier to get your average room (is there one?) producing bass in a smooth yet powerful way. In other words, thanks for coming back Jayleaf!

[RaceTripper]

The best setup for a sub is one where you don't even realize it's there. The sound is non-directional, and it isn't boomy or thundering. It reinforces the other speakers seamlessly, enhances dimension and detail, and helps fill the room with sound. The speakers should always disappear in the room.

If someone walks in and comments how your sub sounds because it draws attention to itself, it isn't setup right. If you can tell where the sub is located from the sound, it isn't setup right.

[PunkMunkey]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

This thread has peaked my interest in the sub crawl vs. eq based subs and which is easier/costlier to get your average room (is there one?) producing bass in a smooth yet powerful way.

I think that for most rooms, both proper positioning and EQ are required...sometimes positioning can only get you so far and to get the absolute most out of your room and sub you need to add a bit of EQ to the mix. But I'd always start by trying to find the best possible position for a sub before EQ...you'll have an easier time getting the optimum results by starting at the optimum location.