Vertigo Discussion: 2/24/02 - 3/2/02

[slade]

Click here to see what this is all about.

In brief: this is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of Vertigo.

The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that I can gain a bit of a film education from you all.)

We'll discuss a new film each week (assuming this actually works). I'll post the film in this forum on Thursday, but please refrain from discussing until Sunday so that everyone can have a chance to watch the film before the discussion begins.

If you want to make any comments about this idea, that don't directly pertain to this movie, please make them in the thread linked above.

Thanks everyone. I'm excited and I hope this works (I'm open to any ideas of how to make it better).

edit: ****SPOILER WARNING**** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers.

[slade]

bump.

[Taxi]

Is it any wonder that somebody from Oregon came up with such an awesome idea?

[Morticia]

Indeed! And picked such an awesome film to start with!
to you, slade!

[DrDetroit]

I think it is an awesome movie.

[Chazz33]

Vertigo is my favorite Hitchcock film.The beautiful backround shots bring a wonderful effect to the romantic angle of the film.

[slade]

I guess I'll start, but I don't know how much insightful information I have (remember it's supposed to be you educating me.

The thing that struck me most about this film was his use of colors. There were many bold simple colors used throughout the film. The one that made the most sense to me (with help of those I watched it with) was the green. In the redwood forest Madeline says something to the effect that the trees are green and everliving--and how she didn't want to have to die.

Then, when we see her first as Judy she is in a green dress, living in a hotel that has a green neon sign, and it seems like her room was green as well. So, this woman who "died" has kept living and is typified with green. When she really does die, she's in black (I guess I should put a spoiler warning--although you would hope that would go without saying in a thread like this).

Other colors that struck me, but I didn't really make sense of where red and purple.

I have a guess about the purple. The woman in the portrait (I forgot her name) was in a purple dress. Judy wore purple on her first date with Scottie. In both instances it is this woman being herself, rather than someone else. Purple is a color of royalty. Perhaps he was saying that people are most majestic when being themselves and not trying to be "made over" into someone else.

The red I don't even have a guess about--but it was prodominant. The walls in Ernie's and the carpet in Madeline husband's office (can't remember his name). The shading on Madeline's face at the beginning of the movie. In Scottie's dream. Any ideas about this?

[slade]

I thought I would do another post for a new idea rather than make one over-muddled post.

The camera shot angles in the film also struck me. I thought they did a great job of further telling the story. There are a couple that immediately come to mind.

The first is the crocked upward angle that Midge was shot at when Scottie reminded her that she was the one who ended their engagement. I thought it did a good job of showing her continued angst at that decision she had made years ago.

The second is the high shot (sorry I don't remember the technical names for these shots) at the hotel coming up from the second story and looking down the stair way was great. Just a subtle (or not so subtle) reminder of Scottie's acrophobia.

[SolidSnakeASS]

I haven't seen it, so whatever... :p

[Triple HHH]

The way color is used is remarkable. You touched on two of the primary colors, red and green. That's an interesting thing about the purple, I didn't notice that. This is what I know from my own thoughts and from other things I've read about Vertigo:

RED: A color that usually represents passion, sin, lust, or simply a fiery color to "warn" you about something. (Eyes Wide Shut uses this as well) Examples include:
-When Scottie is in his old college chum's office, the carpet is dark red. This could be a possible warning to the viewer that Scottie is about to become caught into a whirlpool he cannot escape, since Gavin Elster is talking about his "wife" and how Scottie must follow her.

-The restaurant scene where Scottie sees Madeleine for the first time. The walls of the place are soaked in a plush red. This represents another warning, but most importantly, it also represents Scottie's sinful and foolish lust for Gavin's wife.

-The Golden Gate Bridge is red, and in that pivotal scene, Scottie has now fallen into the whirlpool even further. By "saving" Madeleine's life, he has become responsible for her (at least in his eyes) but little does he know that getting closer to her may have been the greatest mistake he could make.

-When Madeleine emerges from Scottie's apartment in a red robe, it is very effective in the way it was shot. The camera placement, and the way Madeliene slowly tip-toes out, is identical to another important scene later on, when Judy emerges from her hotel bathroom. The red robe that she wears identifies her as the ultimate object of Scottie's lust.

-In one scene, Scottie's friend Midge wears a red blouse. I've never been able to find the significance of this one, if there is any. If it was intentional and meant to symbolize something, I'm open to guesses.

GREEN Green is a color often associated with spiritual, ghostly, otherworldly things. [even Slimer from The Ghostbusters is green ].
-Madeliene's pistachio-toned green car. Her car has the most unique tint, and it's this car that Scottie would pursue endlessly. It's as if he's following a ghost through the streets of San Francisco. The fact that Scottie believes Madeleine is actually possessed by spirits from the past makes the color of her car even more fitting.

-Though a small detail, in the restaurant where Scottie sees Madeleine for the first time, she is wearing a black dress with a green sash draped over her. It's another detail that further symbolizes her "mysterious" nature.

-When Kim Novak appears as "Judy" for the first time. (or the second?), she is wearing a dark green blouse. This is a reminder to the viewer that there is more to her than it seems. It's as if Judy is the ghostly reincarnation of Madeleine.

-In the hotel scene, with the ghostly neon green lights that flood the room. This is where Judy "becomes" Madeleine again, and the greenish aura that surrounds her gives her the most haunting, spectral "emergance", all to Scottie's astonishment. The woman he fell in love with and lost has finally returned to him.

Other colors
-Madeleine at one point wears a white coat with a black scarf. "One is only a wanderer, two together are always going somewhere." When they are in the forest, Madeleine "have a climactic kiss (timed perfecty to the crashing waves). It is possible the white coat makes her appear more "pure" and "angelic", since Scottie has fallen madly in love with her, and sees not a troubled and unbearable woman, but an object of afflcted purity he can love and take care of. For Scottie, his lonely bachelor's life may have made his natural yearnings for love even stronger, and he finds himself in a situation where he can finally love, but not only that -- assert a domineering hold on his object of lust. He's making up for the void in his life, and by finally "catching" onto something, he is determined not to lose it. Thus begins his destructive obsession. This male domination is a theme of some of Hitchcock's films, and may have been a personal one, or maybe on broader terms, he is referring to society as a whole. (?) Or maybe it's simply a theme he wanted to use. (Most famously used in My Fair Lady and Pygmalion, about a man forcing a woman to adapt to his likings). Also noticable on Madeleine's outfit -- she has a black scarf that flails in the air as it catches the wind, giving it an off-putting life of it's own. In it's own subtle way, the black scarf is like a thread of deception that comes into complete contrast with her snow-white coat.

At the very end of the film, Judy wears a completely black blouse. This is where she falls to her death from the Church tower, and the black represents funereal colors and projects a sense of doom and depression. The nun also wears black and initially appears like Death himself, which terrifies Judy. Also, perhaps Judy's black blouse is the ultimate emobiment of her true nature. For a woman whose clothes spelled out her personality, maybe her black blouse was a revealing of who she really was -- deceitful and unobtainable all along. Though it can be argued if she was really bad, or a victim of bad circumstances.

[Chazz33]

Very insightful HHH,while I noticed a lot of the color usage,your attention to alot of the smaller details (such as the green sash and the carpet) puts another Vertigo viewing in my close future.

[Morticia]

OK, let's give this a try....

The theme (if I'm using the term correctly) of making one person over into another.

***SPOILER ALERT*** (gotta have that....)

Here the theme is explored three ways...First, with "Madeline's" obsession with Carlotta from the past....her husband is concerned she's being taken over. While that's part of the setup, it's not explained until later, and the viewer is convinced this is some sort of a ghost/possession story. Everything is so convincing, from Gavin's story about her 'going away' and not knowing where she is physically during the day (as well as mentally), to Scotty's tailing her and ultimately rescuing her from her 'suicide' attempt -- her behavior is what one would expect from someone obsessed with a dark past.

Next, with the creation of "Madeline" herself....the hiring of Judy to play "Madeline" and set it all up for Scotty's 'benefit' for him to be the 'witness' to her death. This is revealed to the viewer just after Scotty finds Judy....a rather succint re-telling of Scotty's last moments with "Madeline." No extraneous narration here! Everything is explained in one simple scene.

Finally, Scotty's transformation of Judy back to "Madeline." First, the clothes, then her appearance. A chilling line by Scotty....(to paraphrase), "Your hair. You need to change the color, the cut...Oh, it can't matter to you...."

Judy allows herself to be changed again to be Madeline because she's in love with him and can't tell him the truth, or he may cease to love her! She is the ultimate puppet, first at the hands of Gavin, then Scotty. But she thinks that by submitting to his wishes, he will end up loving her for herself, not the dream.

Almost forgot...there is a small scene where Midge paints her own face on the Carlotta portrait. Midge is still smitten with Scotty (they were engaged for three weeks) and while I'm not sure really if she was trying to 'win' him back by doing this, (or simply poke fun at the situation) it most certainly backfired!

This movie has been described as Hitchcock's masterpiece, as well as his least accessible work. I think this lack of connection with the audience is because of the 'puppet' theme...it is uncomfortable to watch one person subordinate themselves to another. It brings up the loss of individuality, of "self"...and if there's one (or two) things that humans value, it's freedom and individuality.

[egman]

I give it a whurl as well.

There is a certain theme in Vertigo that can be perceived in much of his other films, but probably is revealed the most here. That would be Hitch's relationship to his female protagonists.

This does not mean personal relationship, what I'm talking about who is professional relationship. Hitchcock sculpted his women into a particular form. Always blonde, distant, elegant and graceful. This mirrors Scottie's relationship with Madeline. It takes the image of her before she dies and uses that as the template for Judy(who is the same person).

In another Jimmy Stewart and Hitchcock collaboration, Rear Window, that same sense of the sculpting of a the woman is also present. Essentially, Jeff is not in a hurry to marry Lisa because she does not fully conform to his ideal. Of course she's beautiful and elegant and seems to be almost unapproachable by any mortal man, but he is still unsatisfied. It's only when she begins to get involved in his watching that he starts to feel like she might be right. I think the climax to this theme would be the seen when Lisa volunteers to go over to the other apartment to investigate. There is a rather brief closeup of Jeff and we see a kind of strange glint in his eyes. If he wasn't convinced now, he was convinced then that she WAS the one. Whether any of the characters were concious of it or not, the scenario of Rear Window was a litmus test of Lisa's emulation of Jeff's ideal.

I thought it was revealing watching the supplements on the DVD for The Birds as Tippi Hedren talked about her off screen relationship with Hitchcock. She was newcommer whom he saw some of those qualites that he likes. When he finally got her on the project, he became like a coach to here. He dictated her look and how she should act. Sounds uncomfortably familiar to Scottie.

I think Vertigo is rightly Hitch's masterpiece because if any film proves he was more than craftsman, then this is it. There is a self-referential quality that predates films like Fellini's 8 1/2 which are cited as an early example of modernism reaching narrative cinema. He hasn't merely thrilling people with technical bravura. He was confessing his likes and dislikes, his dreams and nightmares, his phobias, his ideals, his uncomfortable relationship with voyuerism and the nature of the movie camera. All this is evidence that he was an autuer of the rarest kind, able to speak to his audience on two different levels, visceral and intellectual. The embodiment of that ability is Vertigo.

[Triple HHH]

That was a good analysis on the theme of Vertigo. It's as if someone is always the puppet. At first, it was Madeliene "pulling the strings" while Scottie followed her completely, oblivious to her scheme, then it was Judy who allowed herself to be made over by Scottie's obsessive image of what she needs to look like. (good point about Judy's desire for Scottie to love her if she concedes).

Originally posted by Morticia
Finally, Scotty's transformation of Judy back to "Madeline." First, the clothes, then her appearance. A chilling line by Scotty....(to paraphrase), "Your hair. You need to change the color, the cut...Oh, it can't matter to you...."

This line by Scottie was indeed very distrubing to hear. For one, Scottie really "has it bad." He's uttering a line that is completely selfish and insensitive (he basically cares nothing for Judy as long as he can obtain Madeleine again). Strangely, one would've expected Judy to be deeply wounded by such a remark. By saying "it can't matter to you," seems to imply she doesn't matter, and that she is free to be used as an object, like a cheap doll that can be clothed and made-up. But instead, looking at her face as Scotty (sp?) says this, she actually nods in agreement to this. She actually wants to be given this morbid make-over, as long as she can get closer to Scotty and closer to telling him the truth about her dual identity.

Almost forgot...there is a small scene where Midge paints her own face on the Carlotta portrait. Midge is still smitten with Scotty (they were engaged for three weeks) and while I'm not sure really if she was trying to 'win' him back by doing this, (or simply poke fun at the situation) it most certainly backfired!

The portrait scene is both very amusing and sad. Amusing because Midge is simply having a playful time trying to win Scotty back, seeing how much he's ignored her for the past few days. And sad because her well-intentioned attempts to win Scotty back didn't work. It must hurt to mean well, but have thrown back in one's face. One can sympathize with Midge and her muted frustration as she pulls her hair and curses her own name.

The portrait itself, of her head plopped onto another torso, is a bit chilling to see initially. The way Hitchock framed that shot, and the abrupt cut to it, made it rather unexpected, and the viewer is taken aback by it. One can say that the portrait is another example of "reflections". On the left you have the real Midge, and on the right of the frame you have a painting where the head is hers, and yet the body belongs to someone else (most notably, Carlotta Valdez). There's something eerily off-putting by that. And some portraits, particularly of dead 19th-century historic figures, are perfect "windows" to the dead world. This may have been Hitchcock's (or the screenwriter's) sly tongue-in-cheek way of marrying the living with the dead. So much of this movie is about the mingling of the living and the dead. Of course, the film is based on a book called "d'Entre les Mortes", From Among the Dead. Scotty is obsessed with a dead woman. Judy is keeping a secret about the dead woman. Gavin Elster killed his wife, and fled to Europe. All three are haunted by death in one way, and while Gavin fled, Judy and Scotty are to be tormented by it, until Judy becomes the one to meet her fateful end. And unfortunately, instead of being cured by finally discovering the real Madeine he was always looking for, he loses her. There's something so painful about Scotty's situation....to just get a grasp of something he was chasing (and may have offered closure and cured his vertigo), he loses it all over again, and his cycle of grief and suffering is to start all over again.

[Triple HHH]

Great points and well said egman

On the Vertigo documentary, Martin Scorsese said he was surprised how such a personal film was made during that time. Vertigo was definitely a film ahead of its time. It's Hitchcock's ultimate fetish film without even looking like one. "The man wants to go to bed with a woman who is dead. He is basically indulging in a form of necrophilia," says Hitchock. Another quote regarding the theme of being made-over:

"That scene in Vertigo where James Stewart forces Miss Kim Novak to alter her whole personality by altering her lipstick, haistyle, even hair-tint --- for me it has the compulsion of a strip-tease in reverse. The woman is made insecure by being forced to make-up, not take off."

As Scorsese says, what has given this film its enduring power was Hitchcock's personal touch. The film's dialogue and characters don't seem like they were born on the screenwriter's page, but rather, they have a warmth and vitality, an obsession that is recognizable by the audience. On the surface we may see the usual Hitchcock staples -- perfect editing, great cinematography, handsome budget, big attractive stars --but there is an intellectual undercurrent and an intensely personal stroke by Hitch that colors every element of this film.

[MARVEL]

My take on Vertigo is no matter when you watch it you have to let it get going because it is a movie that builds up steam until it's final conclusion. I also like the use of cinematography. Herman's score is fantastic also.

[Sam_Lowry]

Here are Hitcock's best films:

1. North By Northwest
2. Psyhco
3. Vertigo
4. Notorious
5. Rebecca

[slade]

Triple HHH: that was great about the colors. I especially like the insights you added about the black scarf and the white coat. One thing the white coat did for me: when they were in the redwood forest and she walked off by herself she looked very ghostly. It really made me begin to believe that she was either being taken over by the ghost or psychotic. I didn't think that Scotty would find her--that she would have just disappeared at that point (to be found later at her house or something).

I thought Hitchcock did a great job of making the audience believe something was wrong with Madeline. I never guessed that it was all a set-up. Did anyone else?

I also thought it was great that he let us (the audience) know it was a set up before Scotty so we could see all the anxiety more clearly in Judy as Scotty forces her into situations that she is all too familiar with (having already been "forced" into that character before). I wonder how differently the movie would've played if we didn't find out until Scotty did?

Another thought about the being made over theme: in the production notes Kim Novak is quoted as saying how she was drawn to the role becuase of that theme. In particular her line: "Can't you love me for who I am" (loosely quoted). She said that it reminded her a lot of the pains she went through when she arrived at Hollywood and they wanted to make her into something she wasn't in order to sell their movies. In her character bio on the DVD it said that the studio (I can't remember which one it was now) had signed her on hoping that she would be their answer to Marilyn Monroe--so I'm sure she really felt made over into someone else! Perhaps that is why she did such a great job with that role. And, it also makes the movie autobiographical for her as well as Hitchcock.

One thing that did bug me about the movie was timing of the apparent suicide of Madeline. Becuase it happened about 90 minutes into the movie, and I didn't know how long it was, I expected it to end soon thereafter. When it didn't it felt like it kept draggin on. Although the last half hour is very intriguing, it was hard to enjoy becuase I kept wondering if it was going to end at any moment.

Triple HHH said, "There's something so painful about Scotty's situation....to just get a grasp of something he was chasing (and may have offered closure and cured his vertigo), he loses it all over again, and his cycle of grief and suffering is to start all over again."

That's definately the impression you get from the original ending. Did you watch the European ending? I think it really spoils that feeling to see Scotty again with Madeline. And what was that ending all about anyway? Just to let audiences feel good about not letting a criminal escape into Europe without them going after him? I didn't get it.

sorry for rambling.

[Morticia]

Originally posted by slade
I thought Hitchcock did a great job of making the audience believe something was wrong with Madeline. I never guessed that it was all a set-up. Did anyone else?

Yes, I too was trying to figure out what was up. And the funny thing (or what shows us what a great filmmaker Hitch was) is that I'd seen the movie before....it just sucked me in anew.....

Originally posted by slade
Did you watch the European ending? I think it really spoils that feeling to see Scotty again with Madeline. And what was that ending all about anyway? Just to let audiences feel good about not letting a criminal escape into Europe without them going after him? I didn't get it.

slade...don't you mean Midge? Anyway, I did watch the Euro ending and felt the same way...it detracted from the hopeless feeling you get from watching Scotty's reaction (his whole stance, the arms out, palms up, head drooping....all signs of hopelessness and despair!). I think it was a 'feel-good' tack on, to show that Gavin didn't 'get away with it'. Totally unneccessary, getting away with murder (or not) wasn't what the movie was about....

(my turn to ramble...)

[slade]

Originally posted by Morticia
slade...don't you mean Midge?

D'OH! yes, Midge.

[Alisha]

Yes--the "European" ending surprised me. Seems like so often it's Hollywood who insists on neat packages with no loose ends, justice being served, etc. and usually I can count on foreign films to give me more realistic endings. Not the case here.

The European ending ruins Midge's whole story. Speaking of the colors, she is the woman in blue. (Anyone have the official color meaning of blue?) She was "washed up" and uninteresting to Scottie. He was after green now. One of the most striking shots in the film to me was a shot of the San Francisco Bay (I think that's what it was). Perhaps it struck me because now (in 2002) that location is so filled with buildings and development. In that shot, though, about 2/3 way through the movie, the Bay was a clear blue color--similar to Midge's outfits. The trees and hillside towered over the bay in a veritable green that matched Madeline's trees, car, outfits, hotel, etc. In other words, Madeline was winning Scottie's attentions over Midge.

Later, after she visits Scottie in the institution, Midge tells the doctor that he (Scottie) is hopelessly in love with a dead woman (and she is right). Then she walks down the huge BLUE institutional hallway all alone. Hitchcock captures enough of the floor, ceiling, and walls in the shot so that Midge is perfectly placed in the center of the frame back by the window. She is distanced from the audience literally, and from all that matters in her life, figuratively. She is isolated, drowning in the blue--a very small fish in the sea (do I take this metaphor too far???). And nobody is keeping an eye on her to save her from drowning in the bay, if you know what I mean.

This, I think, is the perfect ending to the Midge story. It pays off the earlier shot set-ups when we first meet her; during the discussion of their brief engagement the camera takes an odd angle look at Midge and I wondered what was up with her . . . was she going to be the sinister woman in this plot? I came to find out that she wasn't sinister, just very lonely. This is another important theme Hitchcock explores in this film and particularly with this character. This ending raises important questions about the value of interpersonal relationships and lonliness in our lives.

On another note, how about that Pink Floyd-esque stuff in the film? Very bizarre. Any explanations or interpretations of that?

Also, I would like to hear other people respond to the use of music in the film. Someone briefly mentioned Herman's terrific score. For me personally the music (along with the editing) worked fabulously to create suspense and to push me to the edge of my seat (much as the score of Psycho does). However, I remember in my Film 101 days that my professor said this styld of music use in a film is called "Mickey Mouse-ing" and he seemed to disapprove of it on the premise that it insults the audience's intelligence. Any responses to that? Or any more well-informed opinions on this subject? Slade, perhaps you can look up the term "Mickey-mousing" in the film book and fill us in.

Alisha

[Morticia]

Alisha --
Wow, well put, and welcome....

Am I to assume that you are female from your name? No real reason, you'll find there's so few of us around here....and try to ignore Seamonkey -- he's always trying to get the gals into pay-per-view nutella fights....

Nice furthering of the colors here, as well. And I'd be interested too if slade could find that term. I was wondering if your prof had it in mind that Hermann's score was there simply to lead the audience down a merry path, like "over-manipulative" perhaps?

Personally, I think Bernard Hermann was as much responsible for Hitch's successes as Hitch himself was! (and I believe he did leave a lot of the mood up to Hermann's score....)

[slade]

Welcome Alisha, great post!

Here's the info on "mickeymousing".

"Some filmmakers insist on purely descriptive music-- a practice referred to as mickeymousing (so called because of Disney's early experiments with music and animation). This type of score uses music as a literal equivalent to the image. If a character stealthily tip-toes from a room, for example, each step has a musical note to emphasize the suspense" (from Understanding Movies, Eighth Edition, by Louis Gianetti, 1999).

I loved the music in the film. I thought it did a great job of creating tension, where there otherwise wouldn't be any. For example, when Scotty looks at Carlotta's tombstone, it wouldn't have even registered as significant if it weren't for the music at that point. Indeed, the entire following sequence in that first part of the film is sustained by the score. It goes on for well over ten minutes without any dialogue, but the score keeps it edgy and alive. Without that tense music there, be it mickeymouse or not, that sequence would be very dull.

Alisha said, "On another note, how about that Pink Floyd-esque stuff in the film? Very bizarre. Any explanations or interpretations of that?"

You're meaning the psychidelic swirls in the opening credits and Scotty's dream, yes?

These are mentioned in the documentary on the DVD. The creator of them for the title sequence was just going for a confused, dizzying look--to portray the virtigo of the movie, and more particularly Scotty. I don't think they are intentionally psychadellic as this movie came out about the same time LSD was invented, and so it was still very unknown.

Interesting that they remind you of Pink Floyd--The Wall is very much an album (I'm less familiar with the movie) about losing one's mind (Roger Waters had a couple of stays in psychiatric hospitals). And, losing one's mind is definatley a part of Vertigo as well.

One last thing here, then I'll shut up. I'm wondering about the editing of Vertigo. I'm very much a part of the MTV generation, I fear, and found the pace of Vertigo to be slow at times. While I enjoyed the suspense of the pacing, it just seemed to much. This was really pronounced for me tonight--I just finished watching The Pledge--another psychological thriller. It is a slow paced movie that definatley uses its pacing to twist every little bit of anxiety out of each scene. It's almost stressful to watch the movie becuase of it--and I was never bored. So, I guess what I'm wondering is: why is that? Why did the slowpacing of The Pledge work for me as it should while the slowpacing of Vertigo bored me a couple of times? Did Vertigo's pacing bore anyone else at any point?