"Casablanca" discussion 3/24/02 - 3/30/02

[Morticia]

Click here to see what this is all about.

In brief: this is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of Casablanca.

The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that we all can gain a bit of a film education from everyone.)

We'll discuss a new film each week. Either slade or I will post the film in this forum in advance, and lock the topic until the first day of discussion.

If you want to make any comments about this idea, that don't directly pertain to this movie, please make them in the thread linked above.

Thanks everyone. Slade and I are excited and we hope this works (we're open to any ideas of how to make it better).

****SPOILER WARNING**** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers.

[Dom]

Ummm, just to get this started...

Casablanca means "white house" (Casa = house, or home, Blanca = white).

[Morticia]

Thanks Dom.

I'd start something myself but I've only seen it like 20 times and not in the last 3 months. I'd like to come at it from a critical angle.

[SolidSnakeASS]

I haven't seen it, otherwise I'd offer my veiws.

[Morticia]

Snake:






thanks.

[Riddick]

The feel of this movie is incredible those close up looks of the famous lines

"I'm shocked ! Theres gambling goin on here!"
"your winnings sir"

That stuff to me is awsome its a little cornball now but back in the 40's that was crackling good script writting.

[Morticia]

Indeed, Riddick is right....Casablanca is considered a classic, but viewed with 21st century eyes, it is dated. So what makes it endure, even with the 'cornball' lines? What are some of the things that make up the 'feel' of this movie?

The theme of the Underdog....
It was mentioned several times (by Police Captain Renault, and again by Lazslo) that Rick fought for the 'losing side' or the underdog in prior conflicts...running guns to Ethiopia and fighting on the Loyalist side in Spain. Then Rick ends up helping Laszlo and Ilsa get to America. Lazslo, who seemed destined to die in Casablanca, surrounded by Germans. People in general tend to like to root for the underdog....(ask any Cubs fan )

The old-style Hollywood 'flavor'.....
Note the soft focus used 99% of the time on Ingrid Bergman, to make her look more radiant and glamorous. Yes, soft focus is still used today, but it is rare. I think this film endures because the phrase 'they don't make them like that anymore' really holds.

Anyone have any more ideas on this? These just came off the top of my head after reading Riddick's post.

Techniques
The use of shadows in Casablanca

Since Casablanca is a black and white film, the use of shadows seems very appropriate. To me, shadows show up much better in a b&w film than in color.

Notice the shadows that suggest off-camera movement without having to hold the subject in frame:
--Rick opens the safe to remove the 20,000 francs for the casino
--As Renault first approaches Laszlo and Ilse's table when Berger is seated with them.
--The name of the cafe La Belle Aurore in the Paris flashback, the day before the Germans march in.
--The parrot's shadow behind Ferrari as he is discussing exit visas with Ilsa and Laszlo.
--A literal shadow worth mentioning: Laszlo and Rick discuss the fact that Lazslo is being 'shadowed' by one of Renault's (or is it Strasser's) men.

Color was in use then (Wizard of Oz, Gone with the Wind) but many films were made in black and white because color was more expensive.

The shadows could also be suggesting the black market world in which the city of Casablanca is steeped; refugees buying and selling whatever they had (even themselves) to obtain means to leave Casablanca.

[slade]

That's what Leonard Maltin thinks (it's on the DVD cover). The AFI thinks it's the 2nd best movie ever made (behind Citizen Kane). I, however, don't get why. Please help me understand. (It's also #7 on the imdb, btw).

I did enjoy Casablanca and saw many great things about it.

The acting was great, especially many of the supporting characters I thought did a great job. From what I've seen of Bogart, however (and I haven't seen a lot), he seems to be more of a character actor than anything else. I've also seen The Malteese Falcon and he was the same character as he was in this one. He does have a great presence and demands attention when on screen, but, does that level of acting constitute a performance worthy fo being the best film ever made.

The story is great and enjoyable even 60 years later. I'm sure it was especially poignant at the time it was made. Such notions a "a few people aren't worth a hill of beans in this world" would be exactly what people wanted to hear as their loved one's are making the ultimate sacrifice to save the world overseas. This is a huge theme of hte movie--Rick comgin to discover that there is more than just himself that is important, and all those causes he's fought for in the past weren't just a waste of time. It is a great story of redemption for Rick. And, of course all the great one-liners and comedy really make it a magnificent story.

But, again, is it such a great story that it would qualify as the greatest movie ever? I don't think so here either. Other stories told in movies have been much more thought provoking, emotionally moving, and entertaining than this one. Which doesn't take away from this one at all--just doens't make it the greatest.

The soundtrack is another nicely done element of the movie. I loved the way they weaved the popular songs, such as "when time goes by", into the score for the movie. The songs that are sung don't bother me at all (as songs in movies often do) and I found them highly entertaining ("Knock on wood" for example). They also added well to the story telling. But, again, as good as the songs and soundtrack were--were they so great as to be the best? I just didn't think so.

The shadows have been mentioned as beign well done. And, indeed, the entire movie seems very well shot to me. But, the cinematography didn't grab me. The scene set ups were astounding. They were all good, and well made, but not spectacular.

And, finally, if it were the greatest movie ever, why aren't more of you talking about it?

So, please help me see what I'm missing about this great movie.

[Riddick]

The Editing is flawless , 1/2 hour in I don't even notice it any more
I think they talk about it in the bonus section

This movie was made the old fashioned way old school studio style but the magic

THE MAGIC

Thats what you are looking for! some people see it or feel it some don't.

The love expressed by Ilsa for Rick is almost unatainable everyone would love to be loved like that.

You gotta remember way back then people had a feeling of sacrafice you don't have that these days, thousands lost loved ones in the war and everyone dealt with it quietly reserved
today they complain seek "professional help" everyones a wimp

so stuff seems watered down today, back then time was precious so love was precious and people loved and stuck with eachother today its see ya at the first sign of trouble
Casablanca just crystalized this emotion

like I said some get, it some don't
Don't be mad at me I look at Gone with the Wind and say so what

[Indyphantom]

I confess, I have never had such a hard time getting through a film. I know this won best picture, but I think it's time is passed. There are many other films from the same period that I think are much more impressive. It didn't help that the DVD release is actually quite poor. I was surprised because I have some discs of silent films that are of much greater quality and not so dark and washed out.

Still, the music is memorable and I like the smoky look that the director achieves. I'm glad I finally watched it, but I can't really say I enjoyed it that much.

[SolidSnakeASS]

posted by Mortica:
Snake:






thanks.

Sorry I was just offering an excuse for myself, seeing as how at that point conversation was pretty stale and no one was writing at all.

[Morticia]

'salright Snake....I confess, I was having a raving fit of 'sarcyness'.

[SeanL]

I find that with many "classic" films, I have a hard time relating. The dialogue and in some cases, the central message of the movie seem so dated that I can't really get into it. There are exceptions of course, but I do find myself underwhelmed by a lot of the "classics". My mother enjoys a lot of the romantic comedies of the 50's and 60's....like ones with Doris Day. Those are just so out there, they're not the least bit funny to me, except for maybe some sight gags.

I will say this, Casablanca is a well crafted film, and the leads had some great chemistry. It probably deserves all the praise it gets.

[Avid]

I just got my first private message, Morticia asking me to participate in this thread. Yikes, I feel like I have been playing hooky!

The Casablanca DVD has been checked out for the last few days (but I got Moulin Rouge, can-can over to that thread). One of the reasons why I wanted to see Casablanca discussed was so I could understand what everyone sees in it. I have long been told Casablanca is the perfect film. I have only seen it once, many years ago, and when I left I had no clue what people see in it.

Unlike Citizen Kane and Vertigo, which were rediscovered years after they were made, Casablanca was popular when it was first released. There must be more to this film than good acting, writing and photography. My guess is the original audience responded to the film on an emotionally level that I completely missed.

Hopefully Casablanca will show up soon and I can watch this film again and have something worthwhile to say.

[Triple HHH]

Script After watching this again I think the dialogue and the script really stands out. (It's more impressive than I remembered) I loved a lot of the dialogue -- it's clever and insightful at times, and has that fast-paced, witty "Golden-Age-of-Hollywood" touch. (In fact, I had to rewind a couple times to catch a line I may have missed -- either it's my speakers or they were simply speaking too fast) ... I also think Claude Rains (Captain Renaut) had some of the film's best and most enjoyable dialogue:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Blaine: And remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Captain Louis Renault: That is my least vulnerable spot.

Captain Louis Renault: Oh, please, monsieur. It is a little game we play. They put it on the bill, I tear up the bill. It is very convenient.

Major Strasser: You give him credit for too much cleverness. My impression was that he's just another blundering American.
Captain Renault: We musn't underestimate American blundering. I was with them when they blundered into Berlin in 1918.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And then there are the well-known lines that have been often spoofed, quoted, and imitated...the "hill of beans" speech and "Here's looking at you kid." "We'll always have Paris" is a very beautiful line because I think people identify with that line since there's always that one thing we've lost before but fondly remember. We all have our own "Paris" in one way or another. (not a romantic tryst necessarily, of course, but it could be anything we have a nostalgic feeling for that we can't have again. Childhood? An old friend? A loved one?) At least that's my take on the lines.

I also like the unconventional way the film plays out. Most of it takes place at one setting (Rick's saloon) and once in a while we venture outside. And halfway in the film, we get a 5-minute flashback that shows the the wonderful times Rick and Ilsa had. And then we go back to the present time, and the film continues from there. It reminds me a bit of Lifeboat and Dial 'M' For Murder where the majority of the film plays out with very few settings, and it works becuase the strength of th eperformances and the great dialogue carries it through. A good lesson to other filmmakers who tend to ignore the importance of a script, the real backbone of a film.

The "Dueling Anthems" sequence is emotional and very well done, with the editing and cross-cutting between the French Alliance supporters versus the Nazis. Notice how the Germans are photographed at a distance, while the camera gives the French supporters extreme glossy close-ups. It makes us sympathize with them more and look at the Nazis as if they were an unwelcome nuisance and the enemy-- even their anthem gets drowned out eventually by the French anthem.

I can't beleive that some people here are having trouble connecting with this movie. I first saw it when I was in high school some 17 years ago at the ripe old age of 16. While I couldn't watch it in the mindset of its original audience who were living with the reality of WW2, I was blown away by what a fantastic film this is.

What's amazing about the script that others here have praised(Triple HHH, Slade, etc.) is that so many people worked on it, often with pages being rushed from the typewriter straight to the set. All too often when multiple hands are working on the script, the results are none too pretty. (For more on the behind the scenes stories on te film's creation check out Aljean Harmetz's excellent "Round Up The Usual Subjects" and screenwriter Howard Koch's "Casablanca:Script and Legend".) I have a great admiration for the script as I spent a summer adapting it for a radio theater production for my college radio station. (Ever try to break a three act play in half?)

Back in the late 60s and early 70s, when Bogart had a surge of post-mortum popularity, it was his anti-hero Rick Blaine that was singeled out as the role that most interested a new generation of fans living during that time of social unrest.

For a movie that was viewed as yet another B-picture being cranked out of the Warner Brothers factory based on a failed stage play, Casablanca is one of the very small handful of perfect films.

[Riddick]

I don't know how to explain it

It was a run of the mill movie, cranked out by the studio but it has this weird energy

I've experienced this a few times, run of the mill pictures that have these romance/daring do/noble theme/tight script/extremely well paced story

this story just flows perfectly some movies when you watch them just really flow so smoothly you can't tell right away.

after a few viewings though you start to see this effortless pacing

Is it contrived, or did they just get lucky, I don't know.

But after I watched "Speed" I had the same feeling.

Wow! Casablanca & Speed figure that out!

or do I need help?!

[Travis Bickle]

Great movie. With some great lines that I also missed the other times I've seen it.

Rick: I stick my neck out for nobody.
Renault: A wise foreign policy.

I have a couple of concerns and it would be interesting to see what everyone else thinks.

Why did Ilsa have to go on the plane with Laslo? I know they were sacrificing their love for the greater cause but was it really necessary? To me, she obviously loved Rick more, she could have stayed behind and Laslo still could have gone to Lisbon to continue his work without her. Do you think censorship had a minor hand in this ending? In the DVD booklet it mentions "The Production Code" and it stipulates "The sanctity of the institution of marriage and the home shall be upheld.", also, "impure love must not be presented as attractive and beautiful". A married woman choosing to stay with her lover and not her husband would be in conflict with these statements.

The other concern is Claude Rains character 'Captain Renault'. Is it me or does anyone else think that some of Renault's comments makes his sexuality appear more ambiguous? Sure, he utters a few compliments for ladies, but what about these lines:

Renault: Mademoiselle, he's the kind of man, if I were a woman and I weren't around, I should be in love with Rick.

Renault: She was asking about you earlier, Rick, in a way that made me extremely jealous.

So do you think the writers may have been trying to imply something more about Renault's sexual orientation given the censorship of the day?

[Riddick]

You hit the nail right on the head

you are correct

[Morticia]

And overcompensating by bedding all the ladies who came in looking for visas out.

Captain Louis Renault: No matter how clever he is, he still needs an exit visa... or I should say two?
Rick Blaine: Why two?
Captain Louis Renault: He is traveling with a lady.
Rick Blaine: He'll take one.
Captain Louis Renault: I think not. I have seen the lady.

[Triple HHH]

I know "classtime" is officially over for Casablanca , but I just wanted to add a couple things.

[quote]Originally posted by Travis Bickle
Why did Ilsa have to go on the plane with Laslo? I know they were sacrificing their love for the greater cause but was it really necessary? To me, she obviously loved Rick more, she could have stayed behind and Laslo still could have gone to Lisbon to continue his work without her.

I remember Ilsa mentioning she couldn't leave Laslo because Laslo loved her so much he'd "be crushed" if Ilsa stayed with Rick. Laslo was fighting the good fight but he also needed inspiration and support from Ilsa, or there wouldn't be anything worth fighting for. I'm not sure if the screenwriters and Michael Curtiz were trying to abide by the code or not, but I tend to think this ending is more satisfying because it certainly would've been too cruel to see Laslo abandoned like that (and would make Ilsa seem more like a [insert unflattering word here]. But the way Casablanca ends, everyone comes out of it looking good rather than bad. It also counterbalances a lot of the films corrupt (Renaut), seedy, and callous (Rick) nature. At the end, Rick is a sentimental guy after all. Renaut is a loyal friend after all. And Ilsa is faithful in the end. If these characters ended the film as wicked individuals, I don't think the audience would've found anything endearing about them.

That Hollywood code you brought up is interesting because I'm trying to think of other films that may have skirted around these rules to address taboo issues like infidelity. And I can't think of any right now, but I thought that things like infidelity have been shown before. Especially with film noir, where the characters are corrupt and twisted to the core sometimes, I would think Hollywood could be a little more lax on the codes at this point (1940s)



I too think Captain Renaut is one big terrible flirt. Look at how he invites Rick on a honeymoon/vacation, at the end of the film, with the betting money that Renaut must pay up to Rick. "This is the start of a beautiful "friendship".

[Jivebot]

Casablanca is at the top of my list of favorites. As was pointed out, for a studio system product that was designed to play for a week or two at the local Bijou and then make room for the next title, Casablanca connected with an America drawn into a global war. But thoughtful movies or message films were not the goal of the studios: it was making movies that made money. In order to that end, movies had to be entertaining. That's why Casablanca has romance, comic relief from a sprawling cast of character actors with wild accents (unPC by today's standards), hissable villains, exotic locales, etc. Being made in an America not yet rocked by the horrors of WW2, for audiences that were not comprised of returned veterans, we have adultery hinted at rather than shown, we have Ilsa flying off with her husband, we have Colonel Strasse firing first so Rick could shoot him as a defensive move, and so on.

Obviously I love this movie. My wife got the dvd for my birthday and I as I watched it I recited the dialog along with the characters.

One note: the remark made by Renault, about the Americans blundering into Berlin in 1918: the Armistice was signed while the armies were still in the trenches. Afterwards the troops packed up and marched home. No GIs in Berlin.

[fischerj]

Sorry I'm a little late but I joined the forum after this class ended! The movie is certainly one of the best ever made. It covers love, war, morality, scoundrels of every proportion...

First of all, the players. Bogie is, well, Bogie. Raines stole every scene he was in and delivered a number of memorable lines. Even the bit players were great (e.g., Karl and Sasha).

Rick runs the cafe after leaving Paris without Ilsa and he grows increasingly cynical, as the world falls farther into its own madness. That's when the love of his life walks in the door. A beautiful relationship that ended so abruptly and without explanation. The bitterness is visible on Bogie's face when he sees Ilsa, and spews his line about having Sam play "As Time Goes By". Who hasn't loved and lost and experienced that bitterness?

The flashback scene framed around the drinking binge afterhours was a wonderful add to the story. You see how carefree Rick used to be and just how far he sank after having his "insides kicked out of him". "Was it Laszlo you left me for or were there others in between--or aren't you the kind that tells?" Ugh! Just typing that line is powerful!

Finally it sinks in for Bogie and he does the right thing. Class. Maybe the film doesn't hold up for some because they don't understand why he lets the girl go (current example *SPOILER*, Spiderman not taking MJ up on her offer at the film's end). Correction, why he sends her away and why he's at peace with his decision. Tough stuff.

As for war, c'mon, what picture is a better war movie than one with Nazis?! Everybody hates Nazis--they are the ultimate evil. As for the scoundrels, there's the likable Renault and the perfect Peter Lorre ('what right do I have to think?'). The dual anthem scene gives me chills everytime I see it.

Quotable lines, excellent acting, tough 1940's talk, Nazis, Lorre, Raines, Bogie...

[Morticia]

Great to have you here, fischerj!

And, worthwhile to note....Casablanca was voted #1 romantic film by the American Film Institute.

[j45rpm]

Morticia said that nobody minds when old threads are brought back, so I thought I'd make a few quick comments on Casablanca...

Casablanca has some timeless lines, and not merely, "Play it Sam. For old times sake."
Captain Renault: "I'm shocked to find that there is gambling going on in this establishment."
Employee: "Your winnings sir" handing Renault his gambling winnings
Captain Reanult: "Thank you very much. beat Everybody out."

The acting is extremely good for just about all of the actors.

The scene where Victor Lazlo has the band play the Marseilles (spelling?) is extremely powerful.

One interesting note to end on: the plane at the end of the movie was not actually a plane, it was a cutout. Apparantly, because of the war, they couldn't use a real plane... That's why there is so much fog at the airport scene–they didn't want people to get too good a look at the mock plane.