"Se7en" Discussion: 4/7/02 - 4/13/02

[slade]

This is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of Se7en.

The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that we all can gain a bit of a film education from everyone.)

We'll discuss a new film each week. Either Morticia or I will post the film in this forum in advance, and lock the topic until the first day of discussion.

Thanks everyone. We are excited and we hope this works (we're open to any ideas of how to make it better).

****SPOILER WARNING**** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers.

[falling snow]

yeppy first one!

first i have to say, SE7EN is my favourite film to date along with memento and amelie. i've been studying film at my university soley to understand and appreciate this film more. and i have more respect for the filmmakers who made this film such a perfect piece. and since i study graphic design as well, my eyes are open to things that are design related. come to think of it, SE7EN was the reason why i got into design. i was a junior at my high school when i first saw the film and the first 10 minutes of it got to me. in that first 10 minutes, there is a piece of motion graphic(title sequence) that summarizes the atmosphere and the mood of the main film. and that's what a motion graphic is suppose to do. after seeing that, i wanted to make it even though i didn't have a slightest clue on both motion graphics and the trade of it. years afterwards, i found out that that exact same motion graphic is the most famous film title sequence ever, and got people into this very field in its infancy. SE7EN title sequence was headed by a young designer at R/GREENBER ASSOC. named KYLE COOPER. another fellow designer named PETER FRANKFURT helped out with the creation. it's really interesting to note that another really famous title sequence for TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD(scout playing with toys, crayons and other various props from the movie) was created by his father STEPHEN FRANKFURT.

after what, 7 years, the title seuqence is still the most popular one to study among us design students. we often talk about various components in the sequence. i know this title sequence is not the most important aspect of this film but it's often overlooked and it's impact is not realized other than by us designers. a typical motion graphic is suppose to convey mood, atmosphere as well as introduce characters(if necessary), and themes. on top of that, MG is responsible for listing the credits. SE7EN MG showcased everything what a MG is created to do. the first time i saw the MG, i freaked out, and said to myself "these guys aren't fucking around." i was well prepared for the main film and what to expect without getting spoiled. if you noticed, or susceptible to design, there is a second MG embedded into the film for Det.Sommerset in the library scene. although it's not a conventional MG(it doesn't display credits), it nonetheless show imagery, film, type and music all synched to each other. richard dyer pointed out in his book that SE7EN is a film about 2 men, a killer and a law enforcer, doe and sommerset. how appropriate to characterize two main characters by creating MG for EACH character! and both MGs are very contrasting yet similar, corresponding accordingly with the character it's portraying. here a breakdown

on one hand doe is characterized with very caustic looking MG with accompanying music of NIN's Closer remix(this track can be found on Closer single disc 1, i think it's called precursor, nin happens to be my favourite band!!). sommerset's sequence is accompanied by beautiful yet haunting imageries of dante's divine comedy accompanied by J.S.Bach's Air in G string(THE most beautiful piece of music ever written!! i listen to this song on my way to exams to calm me down... but it doesn't guarantee good marks...). doe sequence is filled with high contrast colours, lighting, jilted camera movements, fast cuts and scratched out type(possibly scratched by hand on the film). i think we see some blood in that one. in sommerset's, the colours are saturated, staying very neutral, the lights are dimmed, camera movements are slow and steady and there are few fade transitions. the type we see are printed on the books he's reading and are very classical fonts(such as Garamond, the most popular and the most easiest font to read), sommerset's hand gestures are graceful whereas doe mutilates his fingers(to certain extend). here's another interesting difference, doe writes while sommerset reads, coming out with a full circle.

there are so much more aspects that i still hven't discovered. but if you have the platinum edition, there is a segment that explores this sequence with commentaries by fincher, dyer, cooper and sound designers. for more info on cooper and his new company IMAGINARY FORCES goto http://www.imaginaryforces.com. they are now the leading company specializing in motion graphics for the motion pictures, broadcast and commercial. they did everything.. really, everything..

if you are interested in motion graphics, here's few really good ones that i handpicked to study->
>SNATCH(character introduction),
>GET CARTER(stallone version, usage of uneventful sequence->train ride),
>GATTACA(theme introduction, notice the emphasis on the letters G,A,T,and C 4 bases of gene in credits which also makes up the name of the film),
>DONNIE BRASCO(showing the 'time before', getting the audience up to date to the start of the film)
>LOST SOULS(themes, transformation of numbers into letter->decoding)
>THE MESSENGER-TEASER(beautiful sequence that introduces the main character and her will. notice the formation of type which resembles a sword)
mm i can't think right now.. oH!
>METAL GEAR SOLID 2(kyle cooper's latest work. this single piece summarizes what a motio graphic is. this also points out that title sequence does not have to be restricted to films, it can work even for a video game)

there are tons of motion graphic artists out there that do not get any appreciations. for some really whacked out stuff, gotta http://www.konstruktiv.net/ and check out all the 'filmbureau' section, especiallyl anamorph and sprrrn.... my fingers are tired......

th'j

[DimWit]

Se7en changed lives. Or at least careers. It saved Fincher’s career and established Freeman as an A list actor, Pitt as more than eye candy and Spacey… well what can we say about Spacey? Perfect as John Doe.

After the Alien3 debacle, Fincher’s stock had drastically dropped. Noted as a fine visual talent, he had not covered himself in glory. As time has gone by, it’s become obvious where the problems from that picture came from but in 1994, it wasn’t as clear. In retrospect, it’s probably a good thing. Fincher had dropped "below the radar" and could work on something that had floated around Hollywood for a number of years without the system jogging his elbow again.

Se7en is your typical psycho flick. Clichéd, pedestrian, done to death. Think of The Watcher. Well no. In Fincher’s hands, it became so much more. Incredible casting, superb camera work and an insistence by Fincher not to let anyone water down or trivialize the script. Pretty gutsy for someone on the ropes.

The movie opens with a precredit sequence that establishes the character of Somerset; meticulous, cynical and intelligent. Mills comes on with the young gun attitude. Again, the clichéd new kid on the block coupled with the fish out of water scenario. But it’s so much more than that.


Then the credits – in the theatre, I actually jumped, startled almost out of my seat by those credits. I’ve been amused (Monty Python), entertained (Pink Panthers) or, usually bored shitless (Superman et al), but I’ve never been shocked like the sequence in se7en. It’s not what I expected, especially after the opening. No symphony, but NIN. Not chyron but weird splice film thingies with incredible images. I certainly was paying attention after that! That sequence did its job; from then on all my expectations where shelved. This WAS no cliché. Something new. Fresh. Interesting. And boy, was I right.

Strangely, I’ve always thought of Somerset/Mills as one character, Id and Ego, split into two. Somerset, remote, cerebral, the observer; while Mills is eager, brash, emotional, empathetic. Both Pitt and Freeman are brilliant. And I don’t think that Paltrow is given much credit in the few short scenes that she’s in. As the only strong female character in the movie, she has the thankless task of making Tracy believable and sympathetic, someone we care about, in something like 10 minutes of screen time split into two scenes. She pulls it off, admirably.

This movie is dark. It looks like it was shot using a 60 watt lightbulb. Everything looks dingy except for the model’s and lawyer’s place. Pride and Greed. How apropos. On purpose you think? Until the climax, it always rains, giving the city a depressing look to it. BTW, the city is just that; city: nonspecific. It makes the message have that much more impact, the place is generic, homogenous; everywhere and nowhere.

This movie is probably the finest of its kind. Fincher knew the look of it was as important as the performers and shot it accordingly. Freeman shows the sheer intellectual prowess Somerset has, I can’t even imagine anyone else playing Somerset. I’d love someone to have the balls to cast him as a villian, something like a Hans Gruber. He’d be perfect. Pitt is excellent in a role that could easily be overplayed with just a little more ham. He brings the rawness and energy of Mills out well and you can see Mills influencing Somerset with his attitude. Also, Pitt and Fincher have become quite the couple. As you can hear on the commentary track, they’re friends and even more, it turns out that Pitt was instrumental in getting Spacey for Doe. This is the key performance. If Doe had been emotive, typical bad guy, the cliché then it would have fallen right apart. Spacey has the charisma and acting chops to flesh out Doe into a real creep. Would you want to meet Doe, anywhere? Not a chance.

One word keeps appearing here, I notice… cliché. Se7en isn’t one. Not even close. It’s in my top 10 of all time movies.

[Porkchop]

Seven is also one of my top ten films. What I really like is that it has a definite, clear moral point of view. It's so easy in a serial killer movie to have a superficial moral stance--"killing people is evil". But Seven isn't that simple. As that film historian on the commentary track says, in some ways, John Doe is the most moral character in the film. He just takes it too far. (WAY too far.)

Seven is simultaneously a villification and an affirmation of modern urban society. It's summed up perfectly in the final voice-over: "Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'the world is a fine place, and worth fighting for'. I agree with the second part." That's a complex point to make, far more grey than most Hollywood movies like to deal with. And I think it elevates "Seven" above the pack.

[slade]

falling snow: wow, that was great info about the title sequence. I'm going to watch that again tonight to pick out the things you noted.

The beginning of the movie had a positive impact on me as well. First we see the meticulous Sommerset which is quickly contrasted with the "crime of passion" that killed a kid's parents ("in front of the kid?"--Sommerset struck me as highly empathetic, despite his attempts at being rational. It is his empathy for the pain in the world that makes him think the world is not a great place--but perhaps the people in it, do make it worth fighting for). [Another interesting thing is the metronome to go to sleep to, but then he can't stand the rigidity any longer (about 3/4 through the movie) and throws out that instrument of perfect time.]

Then this is further contrasted with the mayhem of the villian (aptly described by you guys already).

And then we see Mills' apartment, which, while not disheveled, like the title sequence was with John Doe, it certainly wasn't neat like Sommerset's.

this is a great introductoin to the characters and their inner workings.

Sommerset, as well, is an well picked name. As in--Summer set, or the end of summer. Not quite the end of the year (that would be autumn set), but teh end of the season before the end. he is coming to the end of his career, and beign conflicted about that end, which will lead to his Autumn of life--his retirement. A lot of his conflict is around this theme of what his work has meant in his life, whether he did any good, and his inability, depsite his cynacism, to not leave this case half finished for someone else to work on.

The constant rain struck me too. Is it God crying for humanity? And if so, who does God side with? Why did he stop crying at the end? Is it because John Doe completed his task of returning morality to the world? Is it because Mills rightfully killed John Doe, bringing him to justice? or, is it because Sommerset finally decided that the world was worth fighting for after all?

The light and dark contrasts were great too. I like what DimWit saw with pride and greed and their increased lighting. I also noticed that they used both light (which typifies the "good" side--that's right, think Star Wars ) and dark (evil) to conceal things. Often the light glared through a window concealing a face (like once in the taxi that Mills and Sommerset were in). The flashlights also concealed the holder's identity--all you could see was the light projecting from them. Likewise, things, liek the murder victims, were concealed in darkness. So, both good and evil worked to make things unclear or hidden.

And then contrast this with the final scene of the movie which is perfectly lit. It is all very clear with no visual distortions from the light or dark (just bars in front of Mills' and Doe's faces in the police car--I don't remember Sommerset ever being trapped behind the bars in the car--I just realized this as I was typing--that's acutally quite profound in terms of how the movie ended, both Mills and Doe were trapped by their ideologies and that led to their fall in the end of the movie, while Sommerset changes his ideology and so is free and so is never shown behind the bars of the car [or he may be and I'm just not remembering correctly, I'll have to watch this movie again!!!]). Anyway, it's all clear at the end, is this to represent Sommerset's clairity? That the world is worth fighting for? hmmm. . . what does everyone else think about this stuff???

Great movie!!! I enjoyed it immensely and it seems to be really well made.

[DrDetroit]

I really like this movie a lot. There has been some talk about the opening 15 or so minutes, and I'd just like to voice what I observed: When Somerset is giving his little preamble for Mills, when they're walking down the street, it's all done in one shot. It's funny to see Somerset, the wise old cop who's seen it all, walking confidently with his hands in his pockets. And then you see Mills, unshaven and all gangly, knocking into everyone like it's an obstacle course. I like them little touches.

[falling snow]

you're right about small touches. it's one of those things that directors put in to show that they care about the film, and those who notices them appreciate it. for instance, there are alot small things in jeunet's amelie that not too many people notices. one of them is whenever amelie picks out a small stone and pockets it, you hear tiny "click"s, to suggest that she has more stones in her pocket. i love that, i just smiled like i've never smiled before. i love it when movies kinda tickles you whether or not you're paying attention.

another BIG reason why i love SE7EN so much is that, this film goes against the traditional genre conventions. if you've seen few serial killer flicks you'll notice the pattern. in a nutshell this usually happens: victim of a gruesome killing opens up the film, followed by introduction of the detectives, they go look for the clues, we see the killer with the next victim(preying) and the inevitable kill, more clues, killer's next victim(who the detectives must save and always do), detectives get closer and saves the victim at the nick of time. films like silence of the lambs, the cell follow this pattern to a degreeSE7EN started rather traditionally, with an old cop and a new cop. but up until the end we do not see the film from doe's point of view, we always stick with the detectives, we follow them, see what they see(including doe's apartment) and feel what they feel. we never ever see doe at work(except in the title sequence). fincher was smart enough to not show anything related to doe until he shows up himself in front of mills and sommerset. this approach of main character(s) leading the audience along is showcased in another anti-convention film memento(this film is a modern take of film noir). because we're suppose to empathize with this character with odd trait, we never follow other characters around. lenny is in almost every shot of the film

[Dom]

It's been a while since the last time I saw Se7en (I once owned it on LD, sold it and have yet to re-buy it on dvd).
But one weird thing that stuck in my memory is the end credits, they're scrolling from top to bottom.
This is the only movie I can think of where they scroll in this direction.
Also, not unlike The Godfather, the movie has this slight touch sepia tone to it.

[falling snow]

the end credit is also done by kyle cooper at r/greenberg. we study this credit as well. this credit shot is the only one where i actually sat through the whole thing

[Porkchop]

I guess my question about the end credits would be... WHY do they scroll backwards? I've always wondered if there's a point to that, or if it's just done that way to be different.

[glossybear]

I still have difficulty with the analysis of this film... Even with a degree in Film I can't seem to approach the film from a scholarly standing... It is all about emotional reaction for me.

I recall seeing Se7en in the theater on opening night at Edwards Big Newport in Newport Beach CA. It was raining. The theater seats 1248 people and ALWAYS had the volume up 3 notches too high (just the way i like it) we were seated in the first 1/3 of the theater dead center (just the way I like it). I had avoided all commercials, trailers, and promos for the film. I only knew that Pitt and Freeman were in it and what the poster looked like. I remember sinking deeper into my seat with every passing frame of the film... I was trying to escape the approaching climax of the film, which I felt in my heart would shake me to my bones... The Sloth killing alone haunted me for years afterwards. After the final fade out I was ready to scream, or to cry... Then the Credits started rolling... backwards... I think I did yelp at this point... evey element of the film was so sublimely fuck-up and then the credits rolled backwards... Brilliant. As we all left the theater my group of friends tried to decide if we should get dinner or go home and shower... Dinner won and we ended up at the Hard Rock Cafe... I can tell you that the sensory overload of a packed hard Rock was nearly unbearable after seeing Se7en...

I have such a vivid recollection of the whole experience of viewing that film for the first time... In fact I had not watched it again until last month, even though I had owned it on VHS and both DVD releases...

Do the backwards credits symbolize that this is just the beginning for Mills?
Or do they simply suggest that even the most time-tested conventions can fall away to a brilliant (or Deranged) mind.

[falling snow]

ya know, after all this time, i've never questioned why the credits roled backwards, it's just brilliant, the fact that cooper and co went against the unwritten rule that credits and suppose to look and move at certain level. but now that you mention it, the backward credits do continue the unsettling feeling that you get when you finish the film. sort of weird or awkardness you get when you try something different for the first time. so if there's a reason for that backward credits i'd assume that it's to continue the feeling of uneasiness and create continuity with the first title sequence(same caustic looks and feel as well as harsh industrial music). that's my guess

[slade]

I watched parts of this again last night with my wife. Just watched the opening scenes through the title sequence so that I could see that again and the ride in the car with Mills, Sommerset, and Doe. My wife is pretty sensative and avoids many films because of that. By the time the backwards credits rolled after just watching those 20 or so minutes she was physcially ill. I think this was the effect going for with the credits, and they are all distorted and have the blaring hard rock: NIN again, I assume.

The message: the world is a messed up place. . . but still worth fighting for.

Which, for Sommerset, is a change. At the start of the film he had given up trying to fight for the world. He was quitting his job and mocked Mills for his idealistic belief that he was going to change the world. Sommerset didn't think the world was worth fighting for, until the end of the movie (I think), but why? where did the change take place? Why is the world worth fighting for now?

That car ride did have tons of shots of both Mills and Doe behind the bars/cage (whatever that thing is between the front and back seats), but not a single shot of Sommerset with the bars in front of his face.

I also noticed that in Mills and Sommerset's first meeting following the "crime of passion" they are walking outside in the 700 block--all the addresses started with "7" (i.e. 744, 740).

Also, an interesting juxtaposition is this "crime of passion". Usually passion is a good thing, yet here it has led to murder.

Always the blur between good and evil--which again I think is well depicted with both the light and dark shrowding peoples' faces throughout the movie.

[falling snow]

Originally posted by slade
I watched parts of this again last night with my wife. Just watched the opening scenes through the title sequence so that I could see that again and the ride in the car with Mills, Sommerset, and Doe. My wife is pretty sensative and avoids many films because of that. By the time the backwards credits rolled after just watching those 20 or so minutes she was physcially ill. I think this was the effect going for with the credits, and they are all distorted and have the blaring hard rock: NIN again, I assume.

if something like that happened to your wife then the purpose of those sequences are just, that's exactly what they were after. throughout the whole film, there is not even a moment where you can just relax, knowing that nothing bad will happen. even the sequences with tracy, if we watch it second+ time through, we know she's doomed. the library scene with bach's air is disturbing as it juxtaposes beautiful music with groteseque imagery from divine comedy

Sommerset didn't think the world was worth fighting for, until the end of the movie (I think), but why? where did the change take place? Why is the world worth fighting for now?

i think the conversation with tracy in the diner w/o mills was the turning point. even though he didn't allow his own baby to live, he wanted a safe, peaceful world for others with children or those who will be bearing children, such as tracy and david.

I also noticed that in Mills and Sommerset's first meeting following the "crime of passion" they are walking outside in the 700 block--all the addresses started with "7" (i.e. 744, 740).

i never noticed this!! again, it's one of those small touches. i should look for that. the film is ridden with reference to anythin with '7' in it, much like magnolia had some reference to some bible quote(i think, 9:15?)

[Miggy]

Slade, the closing credits song is "Heart's Filthy Lesson" by David Bowie. That is one of the few ending credits I always sit through.

Miggy, the Thief

[Triple HHH]

I always loved that scene when Somerset is in the library. The editing and camera work (always a Fincher strength) is pretty clever too -- it cuts to closer shots of Somerset with each passing bookcase as he's walking across the screen from right to left.

Also, the scene is very important, as the commentators mentioned. It counterbalances a lot of the film's depravity and ugliness and gives the viewer a soothing sense of relief. It's a more artistic and beautiful moment that gives the viewer (and Somerset) a little rest before we jump right back into the gruesome killings and the real world again. Without a scene like this, the film may have come off as overbearing and too depressing and grim.
It reminds me of what a reviewer once said about Schindler's List, a film that dealt with something like the Holocaust but still managed to have a few moments of quiet humor (which humanized the characters) and was a welcome respite amidst the dark subject matter.

Another thing I really admired about Seven was the screenplay, which was very insightful and had the right amount of complexity -- like when Kevin Spacey is in the backseat of car spewing his venom about how everyone he killed deserved it, because they sinned and they should be punished for it, etc...And then, Mills completely deflates everything he said by writing him off as a common nutcase, some TV-movie of the week wacko "who belongs on a T-shirt" (something like that ) At this moment, the viewer tends to wonder, is this John Doe really something special, or is he really just an arrogant sicko who thinks he's the "Messiah"? And that's why I enjoyed following the this character of John Doe, to see what this guy was really like.

What makes lines like that so refreshing is that it deepens the characters and gives them much more dimension -- John Doe isn't some two-dimensional baddie like in your standard action film where the villain wants to rule the world and kill, kill, kill just for the heck of it. Here, John Doe is given depth with thoughts, ideas, and motives, and he actually makes some startling points here and there, and he may be "the most moral character of them all," as was mentioned before.

The last sequence in the film is well-done, unforgettable and wonderfully tense, when Mills is trying to find out what's in the box (the acting by Pitt here is very good too). The way it was paced, through editing and those birds-eye helicopter shots, giving us the unsettling impression we were dealing with something that would possibly blow the lids off our heads and end the world. I liked the close-up of Somerset looking at something we can't see -- with utter horror. His character always struck me as a calm, experienced person, and at that moment, to see the shock, even in this man who has seen it all, made the viewer believe that whatever was in the box was some unspeakable horror. Fincher and crew did a good job here creating a tense mystery and elevating the importance out of a small little box -- similar to "The McGuffin" in my opinion. (The first time I saw Seven, I thought the box contained some virus or parasite that would wipe out humanity if opened. )

[DimWit]

As an aside...

Most have remarked on the "violence" of the film. It's not much, really. We never see Doe killing anyone, and there's not much blood spilled. Everything is in the past tense, after the fact. Doe's shirt, Pride's bathroom and mattress, and even Lust doesn't have much in the way of images. Can anyone tell who the blonde is?

It's all reaction shots. Which makes it far more brilliant than most of the lesser movies that come out year after year that have to *show you* all the depravity and, strangely enough, lessen the impact.

[TeenWolf2k]

this is just my speculation
but i think the credits may have been backwards
somehow related to fincher's wish to
keep john doe's identity a secret until the end of the film

so spacey gets his due first, but since he wasnt a major
character until the end... it was just one way you could
have handled it

[Morticia]

Wow, I finally got to sit down and watch this film last night. (So I'm a little behind )

Anyway, after reading all of this, there are very few things I need to add. In fact, this will be just a clarification of what many have said before.

DimWit said, "Until the climax, it always rains, giving the city a depressing look to it." -- true, I noticed that as soon as Doe shows up to give himself in, it stopped raining. And they drive out into the desert, a desolate, lonely, arid place....very different than the crowded wet city they left.

I also noticed that at the end, the colors got more vivid. Perhaps it's the simple fact of more light = more color.

It bugged me that the city had no name. In fact, it took me about 30 minutes to realize they never gave a place, just ticked off the days. Rather unconventional nowadays, especially with all the X-Files episodes giving a time/place stamp on them. Audiences I think have been conditioned in the last 10-20 years to expect the filmmaker to give them a place or time, or at least some sort of clue (costumes, landmarks). I know for me it made me a bit uncomfortable, not knowing where this place was.

And slade's observation about the car ride - "That car ride did have tons of shots of both Mills and Doe behind the bars/cage (whatever that thing is between the front and back seats), but not a single shot of Sommerset with the bars in front of his face."

I had skimmed this thread before watching the film, I wanted to be on the lookout for certain things but didn't want anything given away, per se.....I did read this passage, and looked for that scene. Indeed, Sommerset never had the bars in front of him.

This was an amazingly well-crafted film...I was almost sure I had figured out what Doe had in mind for an ending, but I didn't get it right 100%... I knew Mills had to be Wrath (and I doubt if anyone missed that one!).

EDIT: After discussing this post with my OH, he reminded me that Gwyneth Paltrow's character mentioned how the city was different than "upstate"....where they came from. Now, I have limited regional exposure, but New York seems to be the only place I have ever heard described as having an "upstate". But for some reason the city to me felt like somewhere other than NY, like Pittsburgh or some other east-coast big city with issues.