"The Matrix" Discussion: 4/28/02 - 5/4/02

[slade]

This is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of The Matrix.

The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that we all can gain a bit of a film education from everyone.)

We'll discuss a new film each week. Either Morticia or I will post the film in this forum in advance, and lock the topic until the first day of discussion. (And, tomdkat, don't even think about unlocking this one so that you can start discussing it now ).

Thanks everyone. We are excited and we hope this works (we're open to any ideas of how to make it better).

****SPOILER WARNING**** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers.

[slade]

bump.

(tomdkat: please try to refrain from writing a novel on this subject ).

[DimWit]

Ahhhh, The Matrix. What can I say about one of the finest examples of mainstream violent porn we have had to date? It takes the traditional slo mo Peckinpah style and rams it past 11 to give us style upon style and one of the greatest movies to come along in quite a while.

No, The Matrix is not without flaws, but there’s very few movies that have its scope and sheer technical prowess. Most of the flaws are in logical construction, i.e. the story itself, such as: how does Cypher move in and out of the Matrix by himself? Why doesn’t agent Smith follow him back? How does Tank recover from his wounds so quickly and not mention Dozer at all during the finale? How come EMP doesn’t wipe out the Ebekenezzer at the climax since no one can turn everything off at the crucial moment? Why aren’t the kids at the Oracle’s recruited for the cause? They may not be the One but having someone being able to manipulate the Matrix like that certainly would be handy. Ahhhh, it doesn’t matter. Mostly they’re logical constructs grafted onto something that inherently illogical, though the Wachowski brothers have given enough thought to that universe that it hangs together quite well.

I think that’s the power of The Matrix. Just like Star Wars, that universe is consistent throughout the movie. There are rules and it hews to those rules, never breaking them for convenience sake or because it would’ve been too expensive. One of the most awesome aspects of the movie is just how careful they were in crafting it and how lucky they were in being below the radar of anyone in Hollywood. Very few fingers came in to disturb their efforts.

Star Wars is definitely the template here. Cutting edge technologies and similar basic movie making skills abound. For your casting: take a matinee idol as your box office draw, surround them with superior character actors or talented unknowns. Use untraditional locations, both as to give the movie a fresh look and to keep a low profile. If you can’t get what you want with the usual tools, invent new ones. Know your milieu. Don’t let anyone try to "improve" it because they "have the experience and you don’t". A healthy ego and bull headed stubborness help. And keep the costs down.

One special kudo has to go to Hugo Weaving. The performance he gives is incredible. No, he doesn’t sound or talk anywhere near like that!

My only fear? That the Matrix 2 will be a huge disappointment. I hope that the bros stick to their guns and keep the vision alive. We’ll be finding out soon.

[TeenWolf2k]

I'll admit when I saw the original trailer
with Enigma playing, I thought this film
would be amazing.

but lo and behold
it just rips off a bunch of my favorite films
and adds the worst dialog I've ever heard
and throws in the worst acting,
and the worst use of the camera at least that year.

Can anyone explain the 20 second
elevator explosion scene? Why?
and why all the cheesy transitions? The door goes into the
camera, the bullet goes into the camera,
bullet time is one of the stupidest things to come
out of this movie and even that was done without
any sense of style or coherence.

It's not hard to take a proven sucessful storyline
(the savior), steal scenes from your favorite
john woo films and animes, and wrap it around
a computer background that makes Hackers look
like documentary, and play some techno songs.


I hope my kids will watch The Matrix the
way I watch 80's horror movies now,
knowing its painfully bad and enjoying it.

[Rogue]

TeenWolf2K: How come your post came out formatted like a Shakespearean sonnet?

Here is one thing about the Matrix that kind of bugged me ever since I read a thread about the subject over at a Star Wars forum (don't ask): What is the justification for killing all those security guards during the lobby shootout?

According to the movie, people live their normal lives unaware of the Matrix. But if something happens to them in the virtual world, they die in the real one too. So those poor innocent bastards all got murdered by Neo and Trinity in order to save Morpheus. And I say innocent because the movie doesn't attempt to make the argument that the guards were in league with the agents. This is more than a mere plot hole. This makes the 'heroes' of the movie completely amoral. And the audience is supposed to root for them!!
Most people watching the movie cheer during this sequence without recognizing what is going on.

Now, I'm not some holier than thou type. Things are not always black or white. But I think the screenwriters suffered from a momentary lapse in judgement. I don't think this scene, once examined, agrees with the idea of these people being heroes or liberators. Just the opposite. They massacred a group of guards who were just doing their job in order to save one man. And this guy they were saving wasn't even 'The One', so you can't use the argument that the ends justify the means. I dunno, am I missing something?

[SeanL]

Here's the way I see the killing of all the guards in the lobby shootout.

The agents were capable of becoming any person(for lack of a better term), so at any moment one of those guards could've morphed into an agent. Now, while those guards were "innocent" they were in the way of Neo and Trinity rescueing Morpheus. If they had not shot the guards, then the agents would've appeared and most likely they would not have made it out of the lobby. As it was, they were in the elevator before the agents could respond.

BTW, I happen to think the "bullet time" effect is damn cool, and works well in the movie.

[Rogue]

Yeah, the bullet time effect is cool.

SeanL, if what you say is what the screenwriters had in mind, then Neo and Trinity should have just shot up every human being that crossed their path. Whether they attempt to get in the way or not, anybody can at any moment become a vessel for the agents. So the heroes would have never been safe.
Besides it doesn't make what they do right. They killed people because of something that might have happened. Something that would not have been under the guards' power to stop. Not very heroic.

By the way, in case you are wondering, I do like the movie.

[SeanL]

Rogue, I understand what you're saying...

The difference here, was that Neo and Trinity were walking into the building where the agents were. They had to kill the guards out of necessity. There was a vested interest in getting Morpheus out...he knew the location of the last human city,which is all that the agents really wanted anyway.

[Rogue]

So I guess they fall in the collateral damage category.

If it were me, I would have written it a bit differently. It would take some imagination to keep the big shootout, but it could have been done.

[slade]

Rogue: I remember a line where Morpheus tells Neo that although everyone in the Matrix is innocent, they must be treated like the enemy because until they are 'awakened' they will continue to work to maintain the status quo--or something like that--does anyone else remember that line? Perhaps, I'll have to watch this movie again.

TeenWolk2k: I believe they blow up the elevator to set off the water in order to create more confusion. (I know, why not just start a small fire, but, it is an action film, after all.)

Great movie! I absolutely love it. It's a great action movie that actually involves some thinking--a nice combination for me.

I thought the idea of making the hero an ordinary joe worked well in this movie. This idea has obviously been done before, but works extremely well with this story line. By using this, it really helps us identify with this computer geek who's too scared to get to the scaffolding outside the building and instead gets caught. He's a real person.

I also thought the juxstaposition of him getting chewed out by his boss (who calls him 'Mr. Anderson') for being late played well against the rest of the movie. Such a petty concern--being to work on time, when viewed against the other confrontations with authority figures who insist on calling him 'Mr. Anderson.'

The green tint in The Matrix is a nicely used as well. It reminds us that all is not right in the world and it is really just the inside of a computer--green, like the computer monitors. It also gives a sickly, uncomfortable feel to The Matrix. I also like how they took it a step further and had the Agents in green--since they are software.

The sound design in this movie is great. The sound track adds immensely to the story telling, even though it is fairly simplistic. The sound effects also make this sci-fi world more believable as the bullets whizz by your head (and it just is fun to listen to ).

I, unlike TeenWolf2k, liked the camera work. Again, it just worked to pull me into the action and the story. One shot that I really liked is Morpheus presenting the two pills to Neo and the camera is almost entirely on Morpheus' sunglasses. In one lense you see the red pill, in the other the blue, but Neo is in both lenses. It just a great job of visually heightening the distinct decision that must be made.

[Rogue]

Originally posted by slade

(tomdkat: please try to refrain from writing a novel on this subject ). [/b]

Is he on vacation or something? I thought he would have jumped on the chance to discuss this movie.

[Taxi]

I think he's still typing his response.

[TeenWolf2k]

i know WHY the elevator was blown up
I'm talking about the 20 seconds afterward
where it shows the explosion on the bottom floor
and goes into slow motion while the door
bounces (?) along the floor and eventually into the camera

the idea of bullet time is OK, i guess
but the way it was executed made me groan
the slow pans and the bullet going into the camera

also in the groaning category was the zooming into the
phone number and coming out Neo's screen at the beginning
for a film as epic as it tries to be
these are very cheesy transitions

anyone who's seen a hong kong film
knows these action scenes are third-rate even for
an american film

if you can track down the original trailer
(im unsure if its on the dvd somewhere)
it's much better than the film and whoever
edited the trailer should have done the film

[SeanL]

I thought the "zooming into the phone number" was quite a clever way to do a fade/transition.

Also, I've seen some Hong Kong action films, and I think the action set pieces were first rate, for a foreign or American film. They were fast paced and well choreographed.

What makes them "third rate"?

[Porkchop]

Wow, I came here expecting to see a whole lot of Matrix-lovin', but it seems fairly split down the middle. Which also describes my own feelings about the film.

I think it's a great, spectacular action film. I don't agree about the bullet time effects being cheesy or the action scenes being third rate--indeed, they are what MAKES the film. From a technical standpoint, there's quite a bit of really interesting filmmaking going on in Matrix. It might be derivative, but it combines its derivations in an interesting way.

My problem with the film, though, is structural. For the entire second act, the protagonist is doing nothing but being led around by the hand while things are explained to him. It's painfully expository, and when you have a protagonist who is no longer driving the story but rather being told a story that has already happened, the movie dies. Fortunately it comes back to life again after a while. I still love the first and third acts of the film, but on repeat viewings I find myself tempted to skip through a lot of the middle.

Presumably the sequel won't have the same problem since we already know the set-up. So perhaps it won't suffer from this. We can hope.

[TeenWolf2k]

the phone number/neo's screen transition is
cheesy because it invokes some sort
of mysterious, magical properties about
technology that in the 80s might
have been relevant but in today's computer
literate society it's pretty condescending

the action scenes are third rate because while
technically they might have achieved the slow motion
effect, there is no emotional intensity
that is present in most good action films
(i'll say woo only because he's obviously
the main influence)

and the kinetic energy in its hong kong predecessors
has been lost (ie. the scene where neo is running down
the hallway with the walls exploding around him
was fine for a few seconds, but it just continued
killing any sort of pace they could've hope for.)

maybe the standards i'm imposing on this film
are a bit high, but the rabid following this film has
warranted the critiques in my book.

[Triple HHH]

Originally posted by Porkchop
My problem with the film, though, is structural. For the entire second act, the protagonist is doing nothing but being led around by the hand while things are explained to him. It's painfully expository, and when you have a protagonist who is no longer driving the story but rather being told a story that has already happened, the movie dies. Fortunately it comes back to life again after a while. I still love the first and third acts of the film, but on repeat viewings I find myself tempted to skip through a lot of the middle.

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I felt the same way. The second act never really bothered me, and it actually does its job in explaining more of the plot, but at the same time, it's not exactly the most thrilling thing upon repeated viewings. It's like the The Phantom Menace in my opinion -- after you see those dull expository scenes in TPM you just skip right ahead to the final duel. Perhaps the writing in the Matrix could've been a little better during these scenes, and maybe they could've squeezed out better performances so that they don't sound so tired and disinterested. Seeing this portion three or four times seems to be enough, and now, I usually just skip right to the elevator sequence to see Neo kick people in the head.

With that aside, I am still impressed with a lot of the Matrix. The story is cool and I like how the filmmakers tried to reference Alice in Wonderland and even a little mythology. The wise leader (Morpheus), the reluctant "Chosen One" (Neo), the kick-butt heroine (Trinity), and how these small band of "rebels" face a larger, overwhelming evil force. Hey, I just described A New Hope!

I also like the comic-book influences, with bold camera angles and sweeping shots. The Wachowski Bros. are no slackers when it comes to visuals. As evidenced in Bound, they have a keen visual sense. There's also a little 1940s film-noirish look to it at certain times -- dark interiors, alleys, and rain.

I felt the Bullet-Time worked and wasn't gimmicky. Maybe people disliked it because it was spoofed and shwon everywhere and they got sick of it. But I felt the slow-motion effects were useful in showing how Neo and Trinity were in control of their environment and had the distinct advantage over the normal foes. I can't think of a better way to show Neo beginning to "bend" the rules of his artificial world.



^^^I thought this was a great moment in the film. Neo finally "gets it" and can see that his world is nothing more than 0's and 1's. Even his enemies, who proved too much before, are reduced to nothing more than numbers. It's cool to see a hero turn things around, especially when they've been beaten near death and when things are looking their absolute bleakest. Hey, I just described Luke Skywalker and the Death Star!


I loved those fight sequences. Well-choreographed and exciting.

[Miggy]

I was wondering what you guys' thoughts were on the one complaint (so much as it killed the movie for him) one of my friends had with this movie. At the end, when it looks like Neo is defeated and Trinity decides she has nothing to lose by revealing she loves him and kisses him, he then "comes back to life" and defeats the agents. My friend's reactions was an incredulous "OH, come on! She kisses him and now he's not dead?!" He then said that he believed the movie up until then, but that lost him. I know that this isn't the intended effect and that he took it the wrong way, but I really didn't know how to explain it to him. I just chalked it up to this being another movie that he just won't "get" (he mainly likes movies like Dumb and Dumber).

I had some vague notions of why he has misinterpreted this, but how would you have explained it to him?

Miggy, the Thief

[slade]

Triple HHH said:
"The story is cool and I like how the filmmakers tried to reference Alice in Wonderland and even a little mythology"

I liked this too. They also referenced The Wizard of Oz. It's interesting how often we use these movies in our common language (i.e. "you're not in kansas anymore", "follow the yellow brick road."). And, this movie appropriately references other movies with similiar concepts becasue those are the things people would say in those instances.

Miggy

Not sure how I would've explained it to him--I guess the whole movie was more fantasy (like Star Wars) than Sci-Fi to me, so this played well into this genre for me. But, instead of prince charming bringing the damsel in distress back to life, it was the princess doing the kissing. also, I don't think we ever do hear exactly what the Oracle told Trinity, and I'm guessing that it was something like her love would save his life--so, it also plays up on that whole spiritual aspect of the Oracle knowing everyone's future anyway.

[Agalloch]

My take on Neo's coming back to life...

The way I saw it was not that the kiss itself brought him back to life, but we're still unsure at this point whether Neo really is 'The One', and him getting shot really drives that home. When Trinity reveals that she is in love with Neo, thus Neo being 'The One' he revives because he can't be killed in that fashion. I don't think it was the action itself by Trinity that revived him, just the timing and editing of the scene, she reveals the truth, and then we see it. At least, that's the way I see it.
Agalloch

[Miggy]

Yes, that's how I sort of interpreted that as well. I guess I just didn't think I could get through to my friend!

Miggy, the Thief

[tomdkat]

Hey guys... sorry it has taken me SOOO long to reply but this is my FIRST time coming to this forum! SeanL mentioned this thread to me tonight and I'm seeing it for the first time.....

Contrary to your possible beliefs, I'm not all "gung-ho" about the movie itself. I mean I LOVE the movie and think it's cool, but I was trying to keep teh DVD on the top 20 sales chart for as long as possible... so I was trying to "move" as many DVDs as I could.....

Peace......

[Bjørn N]

Regarding Trinity kissing Neo:

I thought the kiss itself didn't have so much to do with it. I think the thing to remember, is that when you are killed in the matrix, the matrix makes it real. But as revealed in Neo's final battle, he sees the matrix as it really is at that point. Everything has still only happened in the matrix and in his brain. But at this point, Neo is starting to gain control of the matrix, not the other way around, so in fact, due to Neo's newfound understanding of the matrix, the matrix does not make it real for him anymore.

As for the chronology of it, it all comes down to editing IMHO. A little pause to allow for suspense of course, but since these things happen in parallell, the only way to show whether thay really happened simultaneously at all would be to use split screen.

Come to think of it, the kiss might still have something to do with it, as I suppose, allowing for a delay in time due to the editing, the kiss might be a strong influence from the real world, as opposed to the shot which was an influence from the matrix. Perhaps these two incidents at once in Neo's brain might also help him distinct between the real world and the matrix.

Ok, it turned a bit into speculation anyway, but the main point remains, the matrix does not make it real for Neo, which is why he does not die when shot in the matrix.

The only trouble I have with this explanation, is how will there be any sense of danger to Neo any more? a sense of suspense and danger would probably have to be created as a threat to the others?

BTW

how does Cypher move in and out of the Matrix by himself? Why doesn’t agent Smith follow him back?

It has been suggested as well that Cypher might be able to influence the matrix from the outside, as in his encounter with Neo in real world at the time, he says he does not even see the numbers any more. Also, Dozer influences the matrix from outside when he uploads the helicopter training program to Trinity. Thin explanation, I know... And it wouldn't really make sense of Cypher telling Agent Smith that he could taste the steak a.s.o....

Why aren’t the kids at the Oracle’s recruited for the cause?

They are already recruited, they are taught about the matrix to help free their minds when they are finally freed. I suppose they are simply to young to be freed yet, if there is a limit for how old people can be before they can be freed, perhaps there is a similar limit at the younger age?

Btw, sorry for contributing so late. I have kinda taken a passive attitude towards this entire film class section as I am not really one to have all that much to contribute with in the discussion of movies, so I didn't even know about this thread until today...

[mighty mint]

When I think back to the time when the Matrix was released into theatres I believe that there really wasn't a whole heck of alot of movies coming out around that time that were even semi-original and that may have given the movie a boost in the eyes of the public. It is a fairly original plot I think but I do agree that there are some inconsistencies that plague the mind. There are even ones that you can't quite identify and yet you know that there is something there that isn't quite right. Maybe that is part of the writers idea but I doubt it. Movie-mistakes.com has the Matrix as the movie with the most flaws or insconsistencies and I find that interesting.

What I like the most about the film is some of the camera shots that look straight out of a comic book. There are just some great shots! Like at the beginning when you look through Trinity's arms that are on her head and you see the guard behind her. Or the shot near the end where Neo is holding onto Morpheus and you see the helicopter smoking and spiralling above. (And of course big guns and Carrie Ann Moss )

[Morticia]

OK, so I've been really bad this summer with attending my own Film Class...maybe it's that I set up the polls, and slade contributes!

Anyway....I do like how everyone has touched upon some stylistic points (bullet time, zooming in to the phone number) and some mythical themes (Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, 'savior' myths) and have made (very good!) attempts at explaining some plot holes.

For me, the plot holes were secondary. I was drawn straight in, and as I have said in other threads, this was the movie that Gomez and I saw together that made us look at each other at the same time in the theatre and exclaim, "We're gettin' a DVD player!" (well, not too loud, but you know what I mean! )

Theme
The overriding theme of The Matrix (as stated previously) is the theme of one man (or woman) being the Saviour. Whether it is Jesus, or Flash Gordon, or Neo, or Moses....often the fate of an entire culture (if not the whole human race) rests on the shoulders of one person. I think the fact that this person is set up as being somewhat "normal" (hacker skills notwithstanding) is original. All other "saviours" seem somewhat larger than life at first. With Neo you get this slob who can't seem to hold a job.

Well, that's really about it. It was supposed to be this action movie, with (for the US) groundbreaking special effects. It was. I don't think there were many mainstream US moviegoers who were familiar with the John Woo or any Tokyo-film at the time. Maybe now they are??