"The Usual Suspects" : 8/11/02 - 8/17/02

Morticia · 08-10-2002, 05:08 AM

This is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of "The Usual Suspects."

The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that we all can gain a bit of a film education from everyone.)

We'll discuss a new film each week. Either slade or I will post the film in this forum in advance, and lock the topic until the first day of discussion.

Thanks everyone. We are excited and we hope this works (we're open to any ideas of how to make it better).

****SPOILER WARNING**** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers.

limacharliewhiskey · 08-12-2002, 05:43 PM

I guess I can start us off. This was a film that I completely missed during its theatrical run, and somehow, I hadn't even heard of the movie at all. It was one of those movies that I caught on premium cable, and I was just blown away by it. I must have watched it at least 5 or 6 times when it was running on Showtime and Cinemax, which is unique because I rarely watch anything more than twice.

To me, it's one of those movies that gets better every time I watch it, as obviously, the details in this film are very important, no matter how subtle.

The Special Edition DVD really is worth it, as the commentary tracks and behind-the-scenes featurettes really add a lot of information that I didn't previously know.

One of the funniest factoids I enjoyed on the DVD featurettes was how Benicio Del Toro came up with his Fenster character and only told director Bryan Singer about his approach, while the other actors were unaware that his character was going to be mumbling unintelligibly. Their reactions seem geniune when they can't understand what he's saying.

And, of course, there's the infamous lineup shot, where Stephen Baldwin's over-the-top delivery of his line led to some geniune laughter by the other actors, and they never got a clean take of those shot, so Bryan Singer used one of the versions with the actors laughing on camera.

Stuff like this just made the film more enjoyable each time I watch it. What's really strange is that most people I know have never heard of or seen this movie. This movie is well-known among film fans, but the average person doesn't seem to know much about it.

MrSoze · 08-15-2002, 12:38 AM

Greetings!

As I think pretty much anyone can tell from my choice of user name, this is one I've been waiting for in film class for awhile- it remains one of my favorite movies of all time, and the most unexpected surprise I've ever been exposed to in cinema.

So, let me go all Harry Knowles on you, and tell you about the experience of The Usual Suspects......

I had just turned 17 in 1995. Now, I hadn't ever had a problem getting into R rated movies, but it was kind of nice to have the option of just going to the movies no matter what and getting in. I picked up the Post Dispatch on Friday to see what had come out- There wasn't internet buzz, and I wasn't a really militant movie buff at the time. I went to the movies alot, but pretty basic stuff, sci-fi, action, etc. Not really dramas, or anything that would be considered at all 'challenging' cinema by any stretch. So, I just kind of saw what came out that Friday, figuring I needed something to do until later, and a movie would fit the bill. Our local critic wrote his review of the movie, and here's what I found interesting- he wrote it without giving anything away, really. I mean, he praised the performances, the writing, the directing, but he never really talked about the story, only saying that it was magnificent.

I was intrigued. And so I went.

What followed was, to this day, the greatest cinematic experience I've ever had. Nothing has ever even come close to the feeling of being played like a piano, and getting lost in a story that, for the first time I could remember, actually required me to pay attention to follow it! And treated me with respect when I did! I loved it. I loved every second of it, every moment. When the final scenes played out, over the violin's haunting melodies, I literally sat in my seat, unable to move.

No movie had ever done that.

No movie had ever taken me in so fully, so absorbingly, and payed it off at the end like that. Imagine seeing the movie without friends telling you anything about it, without knowing the actors, without any hype- just blindly being exposed to film like that.

And it's the greatest thing that ever happened to me, with regards to film, because it brought out that part of me, and unleashed it. From The Usual Suspects, I started to watch all sorts of film, beyond what I had ever done before. I was looking for the same type of storytelling, so I saw Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs, Chinatown. From there, more Jack in Cuckoo's Nest. Then Amadeus. Natural progression from Forman to Scorcese, with Goodfellas and Taxi Driver. After that, the classics, like Casablanca and Vertigo. And comedies that had great dialogue, like Annie Hall and Say Anything. I was talking to people about movies, and hearing about movies I never would have watched, and seeing them and loving every moment. I was exposed to more than I ever would have thought, and the impetus for all of it was a little movie that birthed a part of me I wasn't sure was there. Now, movies are what I truly love more than anything.

I see more than a hundred movies a year, either theatrical or on DVD/video, and it all comes back to that experience really waking me up to what a film could be.

Okay, maybe I should talk about the movie a little..... ;-)

Is the movie the greatest Film Noir of all time?

It's a question I've heard bandied about alot, since I have A LOT of discussions on this movie. My answer is probably no. I have a HUGE amount of respect for Chinatown, but it's close.

The Usual Suspects succeeds on many, many levels, and that's what truly makes it great.

Brian Singer's directing and John Ottman's editing- This is why the movie works. You can say what you like about McQuarrie's script (which I'll get to in a minute) or the actors, but the movie is just a mess without the steady hand of these two guiding it.

Think about it. Everything in this movie comes back to the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. The editing and cutting together of the film is the most crucial aspect of a film like this, especially with the twist at the end. The flashback/voiceovers have to be done perfectly, with the idea being that you have to fool the audience once (Keaton as Soze) and then make it plausible to rip out the rug again by revealing Spacey as the man behind it all. If you make one wrong cut, if one piece of it all is off, you're dead. It's alot like a symphony, and Singer plays beautifully, getting more out of his actors than I would think is humanly possible. It's also such a tight film- there isn't anything really that's throwaway in the film- it all exists to drive the plot forward and move the characters in the right directions. That's just a testament to how well the film fits together,and is a credit to the director and editor.

McQuarrie's script- Truly a wonder. I really believe that they could have made the announcement about the oscar nominees as Chris McQuarrie and four other guys.

It's just such a great script because it shouldn't work. It breaks all the rules of cinema, and it works. It uses flashback for most of the movie, it misleads the audience all the way through, represents the truth at several points, and finally crushes you at the end without revealing what, if any, of Spacey's story was the truth. It basically absorbs the audience, and then tells them everything they've seen is a lie.

But the reason it works is because it logically progresses to the ending, even through all the muck, and has the courage to pay it off properly, at the risk of viewer alienation. The twist ending is built to the ENTIRE movie, and that's why it works. Kujan is forced to take Verbal's story at his word, and in his own arrogance, fails to consider that he may be the one outsmarted, and we as a viewer are identifying with Kujan, and that's why the screenwriter CAN get away with his ending- because in our own arrogance, we're being played for fools, too. That's the key, the thing that some reviewers fail to take into account- we're supposed to get played, since the character that is presented as the smartest, the one the audience and critic natually identify with, is being played all along. So long as Kujan falls for it, we all can, and screenplay holds together wonderfully.

The acting ensemble- This is possibly the best ensemble piece I've ever seen. No actor stands head and shoulders above the others, and, although I was thrilled with the Oscar for Spacey, the fact of the matter is that no one is more important than the other. I mean, really, can anyone else BE Fenster besides Benicio Del Toro? Ditto Baldwin for McManus, Pollak for Hockney, Byrne for Keaton. They all play off each other with such familiarity, with such ease, that it flows together as naturally as anything they've ever done. On the other side, Hedaya, Palminteri, and Esposito are all just brillant, as they introduce their version of events and facts into the story, looking supremely intelligent, only to have the house of cards come crashing down at the end. Beautiful.

Is it the best movie of all time? Of course not. Have I seen better ones since? Of course.

But has any movie done more for me than The Usual Suspects, in exposure to cinema, story, and direction? Nope.

It's truly one of my favorite movies ever, and will remain so until the day I die. I hope the discussion picks up, because I love to talk about it.

Yours in the Force,
Rick Poehling

WhipSilk · 08-15-2002, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by limacharliewhis
This was a film that I completely missed during its theatrical run, and somehow, I hadn't even heard of the movie at all.

I had the same experience, and was completely mesmerized when I first caught it on DVD (the result of a temporary DVD obsession and an intriguing review). But one of the things I feel compelled to comment on is the oft-repeated criticism that the movie doesn't play fair with the viewer, that the ending makes what has gone before nonsense because it didn't happen.

Excuse me, but aren't movies supposed to be entertaining? The Real World and reality tv are so far limited to television. Did Citizen Kane or Star Wars actually happen? We suspend our disbelief when we watch a film, and generally put aside the "this can't be real" syndrome. Well, Singer and his writers simply took rare advantage of this effect, and tripped us up just as we were heading for the exit. What a great mind trip!

And I haven't even done the SE's commentary yet...

**aintnosin** · 08-15-2002, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by limacharliewhis
And, of course, there's the infamous lineup shot, where Stephen Baldwin's over-the-top delivery of his line led to some geniune laughter by the other actors, and they never got a clean take of those shot, so Bryan Singer used one of the versions with the actors laughing on camera.

Actually, it wasn't just Baldwin that broke them up. No one could keep a straight face and they spent a whole day shooting that scene.

I wonder, was the bad blood between Pollack and Baldwin genuine?

Agalloch · 08-18-2002, 12:21 AM

Great movie...and like you two before me, I had not seen this movie in theaters nor VHS or anything until I finally got around to buying the SE on DVD. Now, I had seen bits and pieces on television once and a while, but had never watched it all the way through, so it was a real treat when I finally the chance to.

I'm not sure if the bad blood between Pollack and Baldwin was real, but it sure seemed like it. I thought it was crazy that in the commentary Singer talks about when Redfoot flicks the cigarette at Baldwin's eye/face, that was not scripted, he just did it and hit him in the face, supposed Baldwin was really pissed (who wouldn't be?) and tried to or did hit the actor playing Redfoot. Pretty nuts. But it sure makes for great film.

Agalloch

mlemmond · 09-06-2002, 03:15 PM

I watched this film again last night for probably the eleventh time and was amazed that it still captivates me the way that it does. This is easily one of my favorite movies. Brian Singers directing was flawless and to quote one review I read for Apt Pupil "after The Ususal Suspects I would watch BS direct paint drying" This movie made him his other films have been good but I doubt he will ever recreate what he did hear.

The script was genius I can hear the pitch now "but don't you see its all a lie". The cast was great as said in earlier posts the was no one that overshadowed everyone else. It was like watching a really good band just enjoying a jam session.

Finally this movie did what all great movies do, it left you something to think about. Is Verbal Kent really Keyser Soze or just someone else who works for KS. If VK is KS is KS really everything that he wants you to believe he is.

Well thats my first film class post.

Mark

08-10-2002, 05:08 AM	#1 (permalink)
Morticia Administrator Emeritus Film Class Goddess Part-Time PRN Princess Panty Thief Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Devil's Point. Burn baby burn!	"The Usual Suspects" : 8/11/02 - 8/17/02 This is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of "The Usual Suspects." The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that we all can gain a bit of a film education from everyone.) We'll discuss a new film each week. Either slade or I will post the film in this forum in advance, and lock the topic until the first day of discussion. Thanks everyone. We are excited and we hope this works (we're open to any ideas of how to make it better). **SPOILER WARNING** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers. __________________ Nope, you really haven't lived until you've fed a naked Fire Dancer a S'more...cooked from her own flaming baton. I reject your reality and substitute my own! "Freeze dried moles. Price as marked." -- Nixon, Suicide Girl

08-12-2002, 05:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
limacharliewhiskey FryMaster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The O.C.	I guess I can start us off. This was a film that I completely missed during its theatrical run, and somehow, I hadn't even heard of the movie at all. It was one of those movies that I caught on premium cable, and I was just blown away by it. I must have watched it at least 5 or 6 times when it was running on Showtime and Cinemax, which is unique because I rarely watch anything more than twice. To me, it's one of those movies that gets better every time I watch it, as obviously, the details in this film are very important, no matter how subtle. The Special Edition DVD really is worth it, as the commentary tracks and behind-the-scenes featurettes really add a lot of information that I didn't previously know. One of the funniest factoids I enjoyed on the DVD featurettes was how Benicio Del Toro came up with his Fenster character and only told director Bryan Singer about his approach, while the other actors were unaware that his character was going to be mumbling unintelligibly. Their reactions seem geniune when they can't understand what he's saying. And, of course, there's the infamous lineup shot, where Stephen Baldwin's over-the-top delivery of his line led to some geniune laughter by the other actors, and they never got a clean take of those shot, so Bryan Singer used one of the versions with the actors laughing on camera. Stuff like this just made the film more enjoyable each time I watch it. What's really strange is that most people I know have never heard of or seen this movie. This movie is well-known among film fans, but the average person doesn't seem to know much about it. __________________ "Believing oneself to be perfect is often a sign of a delusional mind." - Data in Star Trek: First Contact DVD Aficionado collection.

08-15-2002, 12:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
MrSoze Supporting Actor Join Date: Apr 2002	Greetings! As I think pretty much anyone can tell from my choice of user name, this is one I've been waiting for in film class for awhile- it remains one of my favorite movies of all time, and the most unexpected surprise I've ever been exposed to in cinema. So, let me go all Harry Knowles on you, and tell you about the experience of The Usual Suspects...... I had just turned 17 in 1995. Now, I hadn't ever had a problem getting into R rated movies, but it was kind of nice to have the option of just going to the movies no matter what and getting in. I picked up the Post Dispatch on Friday to see what had come out- There wasn't internet buzz, and I wasn't a really militant movie buff at the time. I went to the movies alot, but pretty basic stuff, sci-fi, action, etc. Not really dramas, or anything that would be considered at all 'challenging' cinema by any stretch. So, I just kind of saw what came out that Friday, figuring I needed something to do until later, and a movie would fit the bill. Our local critic wrote his review of the movie, and here's what I found interesting- he wrote it without giving anything away, really. I mean, he praised the performances, the writing, the directing, but he never really talked about the story, only saying that it was magnificent. I was intrigued. And so I went. What followed was, to this day, the greatest cinematic experience I've ever had. Nothing has ever even come close to the feeling of being played like a piano, and getting lost in a story that, for the first time I could remember, actually required me to pay attention to follow it! And treated me with respect when I did! I loved it. I loved every second of it, every moment. When the final scenes played out, over the violin's haunting melodies, I literally sat in my seat, unable to move. No movie had ever done that. No movie had ever taken me in so fully, so absorbingly, and payed it off at the end like that. Imagine seeing the movie without friends telling you anything about it, without knowing the actors, without any hype- just blindly being exposed to film like that. And it's the greatest thing that ever happened to me, with regards to film, because it brought out that part of me, and unleashed it. From The Usual Suspects, I started to watch all sorts of film, beyond what I had ever done before. I was looking for the same type of storytelling, so I saw Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs, Chinatown. From there, more Jack in Cuckoo's Nest. Then Amadeus. Natural progression from Forman to Scorcese, with Goodfellas and Taxi Driver. After that, the classics, like Casablanca and Vertigo. And comedies that had great dialogue, like Annie Hall and Say Anything. I was talking to people about movies, and hearing about movies I never would have watched, and seeing them and loving every moment. I was exposed to more than I ever would have thought, and the impetus for all of it was a little movie that birthed a part of me I wasn't sure was there. Now, movies are what I truly love more than anything. I see more than a hundred movies a year, either theatrical or on DVD/video, and it all comes back to that experience really waking me up to what a film could be. Okay, maybe I should talk about the movie a little..... ;-) Is the movie the greatest Film Noir of all time? It's a question I've heard bandied about alot, since I have A LOT of discussions on this movie. My answer is probably no. I have a HUGE amount of respect for Chinatown, but it's close. The Usual Suspects succeeds on many, many levels, and that's what truly makes it great. Brian Singer's directing and John Ottman's editing- This is why the movie works. You can say what you like about McQuarrie's script (which I'll get to in a minute) or the actors, but the movie is just a mess without the steady hand of these two guiding it. Think about it. Everything in this movie comes back to the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. The editing and cutting together of the film is the most crucial aspect of a film like this, especially with the twist at the end. The flashback/voiceovers have to be done perfectly, with the idea being that you have to fool the audience once (Keaton as Soze) and then make it plausible to rip out the rug again by revealing Spacey as the man behind it all. If you make one wrong cut, if one piece of it all is off, you're dead. It's alot like a symphony, and Singer plays beautifully, getting more out of his actors than I would think is humanly possible. It's also such a tight film- there isn't anything really that's throwaway in the film- it all exists to drive the plot forward and move the characters in the right directions. That's just a testament to how well the film fits together,and is a credit to the director and editor. McQuarrie's script- Truly a wonder. I really believe that they could have made the announcement about the oscar nominees as Chris McQuarrie and four other guys. It's just such a great script because it shouldn't work. It breaks all the rules of cinema, and it works. It uses flashback for most of the movie, it misleads the audience all the way through, represents the truth at several points, and finally crushes you at the end without revealing what, if any, of Spacey's story was the truth. It basically absorbs the audience, and then tells them everything they've seen is a lie. But the reason it works is because it logically progresses to the ending, even through all the muck, and has the courage to pay it off properly, at the risk of viewer alienation. The twist ending is built to the ENTIRE movie, and that's why it works. Kujan is forced to take Verbal's story at his word, and in his own arrogance, fails to consider that he may be the one outsmarted, and we as a viewer are identifying with Kujan, and that's why the screenwriter CAN get away with his ending- because in our own arrogance, we're being played for fools, too. That's the key, the thing that some reviewers fail to take into account- we're supposed to get played, since the character that is presented as the smartest, the one the audience and critic natually identify with, is being played all along. So long as Kujan falls for it, we all can, and screenplay holds together wonderfully. The acting ensemble- This is possibly the best ensemble piece I've ever seen. No actor stands head and shoulders above the others, and, although I was thrilled with the Oscar for Spacey, the fact of the matter is that no one is more important than the other. I mean, really, can anyone else BE Fenster besides Benicio Del Toro? Ditto Baldwin for McManus, Pollak for Hockney, Byrne for Keaton. They all play off each other with such familiarity, with such ease, that it flows together as naturally as anything they've ever done. On the other side, Hedaya, Palminteri, and Esposito are all just brillant, as they introduce their version of events and facts into the story, looking supremely intelligent, only to have the house of cards come crashing down at the end. Beautiful. Is it the best movie of all time? Of course not. Have I seen better ones since? Of course. But has any movie done more for me than The Usual Suspects, in exposure to cinema, story, and direction? Nope. It's truly one of my favorite movies ever, and will remain so until the day I die. I hope the discussion picks up, because I love to talk about it. Yours in the Force, Rick Poehling __________________ "The Greatest Trick this Post ever pulled was convincing the world that it had merit of some type."

08-18-2002, 12:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Agalloch Actor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eugene, OR	Great movie...and like you two before me, I had not seen this movie in theaters nor VHS or anything until I finally got around to buying the SE on DVD. Now, I had seen bits and pieces on television once and a while, but had never watched it all the way through, so it was a real treat when I finally the chance to. I'm not sure if the bad blood between Pollack and Baldwin was real, but it sure seemed like it. I thought it was crazy that in the commentary Singer talks about when Redfoot flicks the cigarette at Baldwin's eye/face, that was not scripted, he just did it and hit him in the face, supposed Baldwin was really pissed (who wouldn't be?) and tried to or did hit the actor playing Redfoot. Pretty nuts. But it sure makes for great film. Agalloch __________________ Just as eating against one’s will is injurious to health, so study without a liking for it spoils the memory, and it retains nothing it takes in. -Da Vinci

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09-06-2002, 03:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
mlemmond Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC	I watched this film again last night for probably the eleventh time and was amazed that it still captivates me the way that it does. This is easily one of my favorite movies. Brian Singers directing was flawless and to quote one review I read for Apt Pupil "after The Ususal Suspects I would watch BS direct paint drying" This movie made him his other films have been good but I doubt he will ever recreate what he did hear. The script was genius I can hear the pitch now "but don't you see its all a lie". The cast was great as said in earlier posts the was no one that overshadowed everyone else. It was like watching a really good band just enjoying a jam session. Finally this movie did what all great movies do, it left you something to think about. Is Verbal Kent really Keyser Soze or just someone else who works for KS. If VK is KS is KS really everything that he wants you to believe he is. Well thats my first film class post. Mark