"The Shining" discussion -- 10/27/02 - 11/02/02

[Morticia]

This is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of "The Shining."

The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that we all can gain a bit of a film education from everyone.)

We'll discuss a new film each week. Either slade or I will post the film in this forum in advance, and lock the topic until the first day of discussion.

Thanks everyone. We are open to any ideas about running this forum.

****SPOILER WARNING**** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers.

[lymang]

I assume you are referring to the Kubrick Shining, and not the Shining that came out on TV with Stephen Weber.
Given that assumption, I think that the Shining is a great movie. It has taken me many years to separate my feelings of annoyance with how it is different from the book, but I have finally done so, and I think I can view the movie without prejudice and enjoy it for what it is.

I think that many bits of imagery in the Shining are some of the best ever! Of course we've all seen the frame of Jack Nicholson's head sticking through the door with the words "Here's Johnny!" on his lips - but I think the scene with the young child moving his finger and saying "Redrum! Redrum!" is one of the most eery scenes ever put in a movie!

Lyman

[marc0702]

The shinning had incredible images, and having never read the book, couldn't know that it was very different. The kid is efectively creepy as is the wife with her bulging eyeballs...

Jack is Jack, as he always is, and convincingly plays the nut.

It took me a couple of viewing to completely get the movie, or I was too young when I saw it.

The blood in the elevator is my favorite scene..

[docF94]

I just lent my disc out before i saw the topic this month....

But as I recall, the trailer is chilling and wonderful. And I believe it is a different version of the elevator scene than the one in the film.

I read a book on Kubrick by a man named John Baxter, in which he says that Scatman Crothers heard that Kubrick and Nicholson were looking for a black actor - and although Crothers had never heard of or seen a Kubrick picture, he knew Nicholson and asked him to intervene, which he did. Apparently, if the fireworks between Kubrick and Duvall didn't make headlines, the immense frustration between Kubrick and Crothers would have.

In any case, young Danny is one of the best child performances I've ever seen, and the movie remains thrilling and terrifying and interesting - which I'm not sure can be said of the book.

The big flaw I've heard people complain about is that Nicholson seems too crazy right from the start, that he ought to have been a more normal and calm figure who descends steeply and rapidly into madness. I see their point, but disagree - I like that Jack doesn't really change as much as just grow bigger.

I was reading a few pages of Sight & Sound the other day, and someone had written in to point out that the setting of The Shining - the Overlook, and the setting of 2001 - The Discovery, are antonyms, and both films are about overlooking and discovering. It probably means nothing, but it made me think for a while.

Sizobonana.

[slade]

Aspect Ratio/Cinematography

One of the first things I was interested in about this movie was the aspect ratio. The movie was shot full-frame and then matted (1.85:1) for the theatrical release (IIRC). On the DVD it was presented in the un-matted format (1.37:1) as was Kubrick’s intent (according to the back of the DVD case). So, being intrigued by this I immediately began to take note of the picture on the very top and bottom of the screen to see what Kubrick put there (and try to ascertain for myself if it seemed like he really intended it to be full-frame).

So, what’s one of the initial things I notice in the bottom right hand corner of the frame? The shadow of the helicopter filming the car as it drives up to the resort. “Hmmm,” I think, “Kubrick didn’t intend us to see that did he?” [snicker, snicker].

But, then it became abundantly clear that this movie was intended to be shot and shown full-frame. The composition is well done throughout. Very balanced, symmetrical shots when needed, unbalanced shots to add to the suspense when appropriate (although, interestingly, more balanced than not).

Some shots were clearly made for the full frame. The blood coming out of the elevator would be severely cramped without the extra information on the top and bottom of the frame. You wouldn’t be able to even see the floor of the hallway in this shot without the bottom of the frame.

Also, nearly all the shots of people would be far too tight. The heads would be right against the top of the screen and their hands—often giving significant gestures, would be partially cut off.

Finally, some of the shots of the maze would also look horrendous if matted to 1.85:1.

Acting

The next thing I noticed was the acting—or lack there of. The opening scenes, IMHO, were awful. Shelley Duvall seemed to be just reading her lines with Danny Lloyd and with the doctor. The men interviewing Jack also were emotionless and flat in their presentation. It was fairly horrific.

But, as the movie gets going, so does the level of acting. Danny Lloyd puts in some great performances near the end. His “Redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum.” is simply chilling. Duvall also picks up as she does a much better job being terrified at the end of the movie than the happy homemaker at the beginning.

Jack Nicholson is great throughout. Although acting like he’s crazy seems to come rather naturally to him.

The one person who seemed to struggle from beginning to end was the chef. He just was never very real to me and was a constant distration whenever he was on the screen.

Alternatively, the bartender, I thought, was great! Just his complete blank look was perfect for a delusionally based character who was just there to pour drinks. Yet, he still had a wonderful screen presence.

Score

The music was simply amazing. It took the most ordinary scenes and turned them into nail-biting suspense. How boring much of this movie would’ve been without the score. What was really great about it, was that these score-induced suspenses rarely came to fruition in the first half of the movie. This created a overwhelming sense of unending dread.

Plot

Great story! I absolutely loved it! I liked the set-up of Jack having fairly severely hurt Danny accidentally (but intoxicated) before. I also liked the ambiguity of his end of his teaching career. It made his careen into violent madness much more believable for me. Danny having the psychic abilities worked well to build the suspense and add to the horror as he sees the dead girls and the blood shooting out of the elevator.

I also thought it was great that the boy—essentially on his own—was able to beat the monster, formally his father. Even had they not escaped on the snow cat, Jack would’ve froze in the maze anyway, and they could’ve been safe—if not terrified—in the hotel until help arrived.

Jack’s decent into madness is well scripted and in nicely laid out steps that gradually added to the suspense without ever taking too great of leaps to leave credibility behind.

Questions, other random thoughts

So, I’m wondering if you think Jack has some of the Shining too? This would explain him seeing the dead guests from the 20s and the bartender, as well as his conversation with the previous caretaker and the dead woman in the bathtub. Perhaps it is genetically passed, which is why Danny has it too (also it was the chef and his grandmother—again in the family). Part of this includes his own reluctance to admit that he has it, which would explain some of what Danny said about not being allowed to talk about the things he sees—Jack is just trying to be in denial about the whole thing. But, the denial is impossible in the hotel that also “Shines” and this, in part, leads to his decent into a homicidal rage.

The other alternative is that he is going crazy? This doesn’t follow as well for me—probably just because I’m familiar with psychotic hallucinations, and what he had doesn’t work as such.

Of course, neither theory accounts for when Wendy sees the skeletons and the blood coming out of the elevator. Perhaps, it’s just that the hotel “Shines” so much that even she could see those things when in the proper state of terror?

One draw-back for me in this movie is that they used Timberline Lodge in all the establishing shots for the hotel—which were plentiful. So, every time I saw it, I was reminded that they weren’t really in Colorado in a deserted hotel—since Timberline Lodge is off a busy highway that passes over Mt. Hood in Oregon.

All in all, a great movie, that I enjoyed immensely.

[C Roberts]

"Even had they not escaped on the snow cat, Jack would’ve froze in the maze anyway, and they could’ve been safe—if not terrified—in the hotel until help arrived."

I do not think they would have been safe back in the hotel. You seem to have forgotten how Jack got out of the freezer...and the picture at the end. The hotels own Shining seemed to grow in power throughout the movie. Perhaps as they got closer to New Years (I don't remember if they gave the dates).
===============

The first time I saw this movie I was scared by only one thing in it. The shots of the two girls the kid saw. They looked very creepy to me. If I turned down a hall and saw Jack with an axe I'd run away, but if I turned down and saw those two girls I'd probably brown my pants. :-\

[tic-tac]

I have to agree. Those two little girls REALLY freaked me out. And the shot where they're chopped to bits? Yikes.

I also love the scene between Jack and Mr. Grady, the former caretaker. Takes forever and is drawn out, but it's brilliant... Vintage Kubrick!

[Istagi]

I am not a horror fan by nature.... No that is not true I am not a Gore fan.

A good horror film for me is more about atmosphere than anything else. The Shining has atmosphere in spades. It is creepy and I love that, I do not need to jump out of my seat that is cheap, make me squirm in it and I will be a fan for ever.

I love "The Shineing" and everything about it. Sure it digresses wildly from the book but that is ok with me. When two people tell a story it is different.

The acting was perfect, of course Shelly and the doctor were boring. They were normal. Normal people do not speak with zippy dialoge. Jack was perfect for this role and played it well.

I consider "The Shineing" a near perfect masterpiece.

[redshifter]

slade,
flat acting is a director's trademark of kubrick. he would often do multiple takes of a scene because he disliked when an actor "acted". essentially he would wear out the actor until they were just reciting lines. i think he made crothers do almost 100 takes of the "ice cream scene". one of kubrick's themes dehumanization, and i think he liked emotionless acting and often has scenes of people who appear turned off in his films.

"the shining" is my favorite horror film. the soundtrack is as important as another character in the film, and adds a great deal to the eerie atmosphere. some scenes are almost "mickey moused", which is a term animators use meaning a musical score that follows every move of the actors. the score in "the shining" often mirrors the feelings and actions in the film--just watch the scene where wendy has the bat. the new dolby 5.1 dvd is an absolute "must have" for this reason.

every time i watch "the shining" i find a new level of meaning. recently i discovered in the open matte version the little ghost sisters are always in the exact center of the picture. this is one of the details of the film that first only register in the subconcious, somehow making the girls more frightening than they should be. i also noticed last time the many american indian decorations in the overlook, and the mention of the overlook being built on an indian burial ground. at one point jack mentions the "white man's burden", and his choice of weapons in the end i think mirrors the tomahawk. what kubrick is trying to "say" with these clues is up to the individual viewer. kubrick rarely spells out his meanings.

personally i think the true horror of "the shining" is the emotional and physical abuse of a child and mother from a father. the ghosts are frightening, but the viewer sees from the beginning the true evil within jack existed long before he came to the overlook, since he had hurt his son in a drunken rage before. the scene where jack tells danny he would never hurt him or his mother is perhaps the most chilling scene in the movie.

[3DMan]

I was watching this with a friend and just as the two girls appeared, the power went out and it went pitch black. Scary.

I got to see this in the theater for the USA film festival with Shelly Duvall in attendance. It works DAMN good in a theater.

[KikuchiyoCM]

>So, what’s one of the initial things I notice in the bottom right hand corner of the frame? The shadow of the helicopter filming the car as it drives up to the resort. “Hmmm,” I think, “Kubrick didn’t intend us to see that did he?” [snicker, snicker].

On this section, as far as i recall, the actual shots done in the helicopter weren't shot under Kubrick's supervision, and one important thing to remember is that there are essentially two versions of THE SHINING available, the longer US cut and IMHO, the far superior European cut (Kubrick didn't like the unnecessary repetition caused by certain scenes, plus although in a humourous sort of way, that cheap'n'nasty shot of the corpses as Wendy enters a room).

The European cut omits the helicopter blades

[DoubleDeuce]

Oh boy! Where to start?

The Shining is my favorite horror film it is truly horrific--on multiple levels. Some movies are scary but once you get past all of the "jump" scenes there is usually little to hold the movie together. The Shining works because it is an unrelenting freefall into dementia, everyone knows its going to be 10 car pile-up, your toes are on the brakes and all you can do is watch the wreck coming. Which is why I understand fans of the book were disappointed.

I've never read the novel but by perusing fan remarks and finally catching the remake last week I can see that King's novel was more focused on the father's struggle to be true to his family and not his inner demons. In the remake he sacrifices himself to destroy the hotel and allow his family to escape. There are several scenes illustrating his fluctuation between sanity and mania. So the tone and theme is quite different from Kubrick's version which stars Jack Nicholson obviously on the edge.

Kubrick dispenses with very little pretense and builds layer after layer of suspense. The fantastic score puts everyone on edge, the impressive visuals of the Overlook showcasing large grandeur but emphasizing the emptiness of the estate. The reduction of time serves as a countdown to doom, with the transitions jumping from months at a time, to weeks, to days, and finally to that fateful date. Who can forget the shot of blood pouring from the elevator? Or the twin girls waiting for Danny? Or Danny peddling around on his tricycle, the groove of the wheels alternating between the hardwood floors and the soft rugs?

Another interesting point is the ambiguity of the supernatural. Aside from the early shining between Danny and Dick Hallorann there is not an obvious display of the supernatural. Every one of the encounters with the spirits are isolated, separate departures from reality approached alone by Jack or Danny. It is very easy to assume the spirits are part of their imagination, echoes inside their minds.

There are a couple of interesting themes apparent from the movie (and the original story).

First of all is something someone touched upon earlier--the mention of Native Americans. A subtle comment on Manifest Destiny, where white man overtook Indian lands, desecrated the past, and erected huge monuments to serve their own selfish needs. A broad generalization but definitely referenced in dialogue and visually (Indian decorations, bestiality in the final scene).

Second is the theme of writer's block. Jack uses his free time to write but the isolation only seems to magnify his frustration. The hedge maze is symbolic of his mind. There is a scene where he stares down at the model of the hedge maze, obviously trapped within his own mind without a clue on an escape path. At the very end he chases Danny in the actual maze and becomes so confused that he finally dies, frozen forever in his own mind.

Which is pretty much where I'm at this time. Whew!

[redshifter]

i've read the book a few times and the very first line is jack torrence thinking stuart ullman is "an officious little prick". i think this sets up from the first line that jack is a character with a temper, and little patience. the book also has more detail, such as the boiler and the scrapbook, both of which are included in the movie in much smaller roles. the underlying themes of the book about rage and alcoholism are the same in the film, and kubrick made a choice to focus on the central 3-way conflict of jack/overlook/danny & wendy rather than on the hotel ghosts.

by the way, the two little sisters in the film are not twins.

KikuchiyoCM,
can you show me a source regarding this alternate cut of "the shining"?

[Morticia]

redshifter:

All you ever needed to know about films comes from imdb.com

http://us.imdb.com/AlternateVersions?0081505

Pretty detailed stuff, right there.

[C Roberts]

Yeah, they're not twins. I just always call them "the twins" because they are dressed to look alike. They are actually the 8 & 10 year old daughters of the previous caretaker who murdered his family.


All in all Jack Torrance was kind of pathetic from the ghosts point of view. He only killed one person (someone they probably didn't want a ghost of around), he failed to kill his family as ordered, and only died himself through his own stupidity because he got lost in the maze. Not a very prolific axe-murderer.

[redshifter]

morticia,
thanks, i'm an old imdb'er, and i use it almost every day. i could have sworn i checked "the shining" in the past there. i just assumed kubrick did the usual post release cuts and destroyed all other copies of the film. i am a little surprised there are in fact two versions.

c roberts,
yep, they are grady's daughters. they had to be corrected. jack is as much a victim of the overlook as wendy & danny. it preyed on his weaknesses and turned him into a monster. by the way, in the book jack uses a roque mallet, not an axe.

[C Roberts]

I'm glad I never read the book. I saw the last half hour of the remake Shining and almost cried because the way they turned the movie from a spectacular horror/suspense tale with lots of depth to a cheesy movie that is about as scary as Sabrina the Teenage Witch.

[redshifter]

Originally posted by C Roberts
I'm glad I never read the book. I saw the last half hour of the remake Shining and almost cried because the way they turned the movie from a spectacular horror/suspense tale with lots of depth to a cheesy movie that is about as scary as Sabrina the Teenage Witch.

the book and the tv series are two different things. you are really missing out.

[mlemmond]

Can someone answer a question for me? At the end of the film we see a black and whithe photo dated 1926 or something and Jack standing in the front. What is the deal with that? I've always wondered.

[DoubleDeuce]

I've always interpreted it as a sign that Jack has been accepted into the spirit world. While he may have failed to physically destroy his family, Jack has spiritually killed his family and now the evil spirits of the hotel have become his new "family". So his madness will continue to haunt the hotel along with all the other horrible nightmares.

Since the photo was dated it can also be presumed that Jack was destined to go mad. Maybe his spirit had always been there? Maybe he is the reincarnation of some evil?

[georgep]

The Shining is a film, as flawed as it is, that grabs on to a viewer with its haunting atmosphere and never lets go, even after it's over. No film of Kubrick's so consistently holds my fascination as this one, in large part due to the editing, set design and score.

In fact, Kubrick's temp track to this film is the best temp score ever, hands down, in my mind. It was thus to my amazement that I found out five years ago that even the temp score was manipulated and mixed by the ORIGINAL SCORE composers--Wendy Carlos and Rachel Elkind.

This is a major reason why the individual works of Krzyzstof Penderecki and Gyorgy Ligeti are not given credit at the end of the film, because their work (especially Penderecki's stunning postmodern pieces Utrenja, De Natura Sonoris and his Dies Irae) was edited and mixed together into an incredibly unnerving sonic experience by Carlos and Elkind. (The swing orchestra works Home, When Shadows Fall and Midnight With the Stars and You --the ones you hear in the Gold Ballroom and at the end of the film--were also original works composed for the film, by the way.)

Who can ever forget the ghostly chanting as Wendy runs through the hotel or the repeated rattle-clacking of the tam-tam drums as she sees REDRUM, the two men in the bedroom, or "Great party, isn't it?" This is all from Penderecki's early 1960s work--mixed subtly, like it was ambient sound, into the finished film. I've never heard anything like it in the movies before or since.

After all of Jack Nicholson's one-liners fade from memory, the emotional wallop that Carlos, Elkind, Ligeti and Penderecki brought to virtually every scene of The Shining will always remain fresh in my mind. What an achievement.


PS. double post deleted, no worries -- Morticia

[valar12]

First, I've not read the King book. Second, I'd not seen this film until two weeks ago from my local library. So here we go.

After sitting through this entire feature, I've come to the conclusion that i never liked a Stanely Kubrick film.

His films, cinematografy, and screenplays have been undeveloped, uninteresting, and poorly compostioned.

The Shining gave me this conclusion best.

I was never engrossed in the film at all. I never cared about the characters or they're plight. Jack's descent into madness made no sense. I didn't care either. The boy was a little uninteresting, but it's strongest acting by far. All other characters acted worse than television actors.

Kubrick's "style" is a joke. It's not even storytelling. A simple recreation of shots to mimick what the book might have had.

This wasn't a horror movie either. I wasn't frightened. I wasn't intrigued. It made my mind run slower than molasses. I'd rather films that scare me have a little more...."umph" to them. This was just subar of any B horror movie I'd seen before it.

My taste in movies varies widely. If a film doesn't work. It doesn't work. This film did not come together. In acting, screenplay, and direction this film gets an F. I was more scared of "All about the Benjamins" than this film.