"Ichi, the Killer" : 08/10/03 - 08/16/03

[Morticia]

This is a thread to discuss the technical and/or thematic merits of "Ichi, the Killer".
The purpose being to foster intelligent discussion of films without resorting to "It's a piece of crap." or "It's the greatest film ever." (And so that we all can gain a bit of a film education from everyone.)

We'll discuss a new film each week. Either slade or I will post the film in this forum in advance, and lock the topic until the first day of discussion.

Thanks everyone. We are excited and we hope this works (we're open to any ideas of how to make it better).

****SPOILER WARNING**** of course this entire thread is going to be full of spoilers.

[MJZ]

I'm disappointed no one has posted. I've not seen this film and would like to read people's opinions/information about this movie. Only a couple of days to post.

[orf]

Ok, time for me to start on the discussion I've been waiting ages to be posted.
I'm not really sure how to express my love for 'Ichi the Killer'. To me, it's a nearly flawless movie. It combines many film styles, from art film, to gutbustingly funny comedy, to just pointless exploitation.

The only thing I find confusing about 'Ichi the Killer' is its lack of defined sides. Who's really the bad guy, and who's really the good guy? It seems like Kakihara and gang are off to seek vengenance for Boss Anjo's death (which was done by Ichi), or is Ichi really the protector of the world, removing those pesky yakuza members one slice at a time.
The scene where Ichi kicks the kid in the stomach because he was picking on him and Kaneko's kid proves to me that maybe Ichi is the Superman of the movie, and Kakihara is the Lex Luther. Because in all superhero movies, doesn't the good guy always suceed over the bad guy? But then again, the ending of this movie might change this...

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

I mean, isn't that Ichi hanging from the tree at the end of the movie?

Is 'Ichi the Killer' just the BDSM version of a superhero movie? Or am I just delusional?

Another thing people try to find in this movie is if there's any kind of deeper meaning to it. I've watched Ichi at least 6 times, and I can safely say that though it comes off as like "This movie is so pointless that it MUST have some kind of satire built-in". It doesn't. From what little I know of Miike, I seriously doubt this movie has any real philisophical point to it. The fact that it's based on a manga makes my point even more solid. There's nothing in 'Ichi the Killer' that makes it some deep art film. It's pointless and is just an action/exploitation movie in the truest sense. But that's the genius, I think. Most exploitation movies come off as just that --- exploitation movies.

But 'Ichi the Killer' comes off as an exploitation movie with a deeper point --- a pure delusion. But, isn't Jijii deluding Ichi into thinking these yakuza guys are the grown-up kids that picked on Ichi in high school? The movie is a whole delusion. Everybody in the movie is delusional. Ichi is delusional from Jijii, Kakihara is delusional because of his thinking that Ichi is a sadist by himself (though Ichi does show differently with the demise of Karen), and Karen is delusional because of her thought that she could give Ichi a blowjob, maybe fuck him AND talk like she's some S&M freak without getting her throat slashed in the end.

Technically this movie shines, also. It's shot with a very stylish feel; the couple of shots of Ichi that have that extremely overcontrasted look are awesome. Karera Musication's (a Boredoms side-project) soundtrack suits the movie very well, also. It's minimalistic and doesn't overcome all the wonderful sound effects of blood being spewn.

Compared to the few Miike movies I have seen, this one is still my favorite, and I think it just might be for a long while.

[Morticia]

Originally Posted by MJZ

I'm disappointed no one has posted. I've not seen this film and would like to read people's opinions/information about this movie. Only a couple of days to post.

MJZ -- don't take it so hard. Besides, none of these threads get locked after their weeks are up! "You're never late to Film Class"

Also -- this isn't a DVD you can get that readily...

[mlemmond]

Originally Posted by Morticia

Also -- this isn't a DVD you can get that readily...

Nope! I had hoped to see this awhile back but because Netflix doesn't carry it and I'm not confident enough in it to buy it blind I still haven't had the chance to see it.

[orf]

Originally Posted by mlemmond

Nope! I had hoped to see this awhile back but because Netflix doesn't carry it and I'm not confident enough in it to buy it blind I still haven't had the chance to see it.

The only real versions are R2 PAL. There's the uncut Dutch DVD (which I own), the cut British DVD from HKL/Premier Asia, some German version that doesn't have English subtitles, the Japanese version without English subs, and the R3 HK version that's heavily cut. I guess there might be another version or two out there, not including bootlegs. Media Blasters will probably release a DVD quite soon, though.

[JFelix]

Originally Posted by orf

The only thing I find confusing about 'Ichi the Killer' is its lack of defined sides. Who's really the bad guy, and who's really the good guy? It seems like Kakihara and gang are off to seek vengenance for Boss Anjo's death (which was done by Ichi), or is Ichi really the protector of the world, removing those pesky yakuza members one slice at a time.

In my opinion, and I'm sure since it's a miike movie, it's possibly true, there are no 'good' guys in Ichi the killer, only varying shades of grey. Even Kakihara is given a great amount of sympathy- all he's looking for is true love really. Sure, it's love in the form of torture, but it's love, damn it!

Kakihara is just an element of homosexuality that Miike LOVES to inject into his movie. So far there's about... two miike movies I've seen that hasn't had any homosexual characters/scenes/obvious innuendo?

Originally Posted by orf

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

Nope!

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

That's Jiji. The boy at the end is Ichi. I think Ichi figures out he's being manipulated, which is completely freeing to him since the whole rape was a trick by Jiji. Once Ichi figures this out, Jiji realises he cannot control Ichi anymore and kills himself.

Miike's a bit too fond of non (Or trick) endings if you ask me. I love the guy, but sometimes the endings, though once you put them together sort of makes sense, that doesn't make them any less staggering (I debated the ending of 'City of Lost Souls' with a bunch of friends afterwards and came to a conclusion which makes sense, but is still maddening.)

Originally Posted by orf

Is 'Ichi the Killer' just the BDSM version of a superhero movie? Or am I just delusional?

It's a manga adaptation. I think that says it all

Originally Posted by orf

From what little I know of Miike, I seriously doubt this movie has any real philisophical point to it. The fact that it's based on a manga makes my point even more solid. There's nothing in 'Ichi the Killer' that makes it some deep art film. It's pointless and is just an action/exploitation movie in the truest sense. But that's the genius, I think. Most exploitation movies come off as just that --- exploitation movies.

Miike always makes a point to mention he makes movies without any sort of philisophical point to them- he has mentioned in the past that there's no deep feminist meaning to 'Audition'. He does seem to favor movies that you do have to piece together though (see the multiple arguments about Kakihara's ultimate fate.)

Originally Posted by orf

But 'Ichi the Killer' comes off as an exploitation movie with a deeper point --- a pure delusion. But, isn't Jijii deluding Ichi into thinking these yakuza guys are the grown-up kids that picked on Ichi in high school? The movie is a whole delusion. Everybody in the movie is delusional. Ichi is delusional from Jijii, Kakihara is delusional because of his thinking that Ichi is a sadist by himself (though Ichi does show differently with the demise of Karen), and Karen is delusional because of her thought that she could give Ichi a blowjob, maybe fuck him AND talk like she's some S&M freak without getting her throat slashed in the end.

I think the feeling of deepness (A phrase not to be used when talking about 'Ichi the Killer') is even though it's an exploitation movie at heart, it does not treat its characters as slabs of meat, these are characters that actually have plot around them, backstory, desires, fears, they're not one dimensional and waiting for eventual death.

If you take out the gore (Which there isn't as much as people would claim there is, in my opinion. But maybe I'm just desensitised.) you would still have an interesting story, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by orf

Karera Musication's (a Boredoms side-project) soundtrack suits the movie very well, also. It's minimalistic and doesn't overcome all the wonderful sound effects of blood being spewn.

I like making note of the soundtrack since I'm such a boredoms nut. (damnit, I'm sad that Karera Musication didn't do that LA show...) I fully suggest if you enjoy 'Ichi's soundtrack to check out the boredoms 'Super AE' and 'Vision Creation Newsun' album, which are much more amazing. Also, portions of the album 'Gold and Green' by ooioo (ALSO a boredoms sideproject. But there's millions of them.) was used for the Ichi the soundtrack, which is also something to look out for.

Originally Posted by orf

Compared to the few Miike movies I have seen, this one is still my favorite, and I think it just might be for a long while.

You just need to see more :P

It's my personal favorite miike movie because he finally got the balance between violence and plot right. The plot is interesting enough that you're not on the edge of your seat waiting for the next gore explosion.

[orf]

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

Ooooh. Ok, well, that makes better sense.

I like making note of the soundtrack since I'm such a boredoms nut. (damnit, I'm sad that Karera Musication didn't do that LA show...) I fully suggest if you enjoy 'Ichi's soundtrack to check out the boredoms 'Super AE' and 'Vision Creation Newsun' album, which are much more amazing. Also, portions of the album 'Gold and Green' by ooioo (ALSO a boredoms sideproject. But there's millions of them.) was used for the Ichi the soundtrack, which is also something to look out for.

Already have Super AE and Vision Creation Newsun (and Eye's Rebore 0, and Super Roots 6, and Chocolate Synthesizer...), and I love them. A lot more than the earlier Boredoms stuff..

he has mentioned in the past that there's no deep feminist meaning to 'Audition'.

I do enjoy being delusional; thinking that it DOES have some feminist meaning to it and all. Because god, that girl has a BIT too much girl power.

(Which there isn't as much as people would claim there is, in my opinion. But maybe I'm just desensitised.)

Haha, I agree. There isn't too much, and what gore there is... it's just funny. I don't see how there could be any walkouts for it.

[JFelix]

Originally Posted by mlemmond

Nope! I had hoped to see this awhile back but because Netflix doesn't carry it and I'm not confident enough in it to buy it blind I still haven't had the chance to see it.

Netflix doesn't carry 'Ichi' yet because it's not out/for pre-order yet (Mediablasters said 2 disc set fully uncut in September.)

However, I would suggest looking over previous Miike films which ARE available through netflix.

Audition
City of Lost Souls
Dead or Alive
The Happiness of the Katakuris
Visitor Q

My suggestion? Rent them all, but do it in this order, which goes from 'nice' movies to 'Visitor Q' :P

The Happiness of the Katakuris
(A dark comedy musical horror claymation EVERYTHING movie. VERY funny. It's an R-Rated movie for the whole family. Seriously. This movie at worst is PG-13 and yet somehow got an R.)
City of Lost Souls
(Miike's second most 'Mainstream' film, dramatic, has a lot of action, it gets overly goofy and features the first ever inside of a toilet POV shot!)
Audition
(Slow paced dramatic movie explodes at the end into something 100% different.)
Dead or Alive
(The first 6 minutes are more violent than most hollywood action flicks. But then slips into 90 minutes of drama and ends with a hysterical parody of action films. But will probably bore you to death within those middle 90 minutes.)
Visitor Q
(It's like reality television. Only with incest, parental beatings, necrophillia, lactation fetish, and a bizarrely touching ending. PS: It's a comedy.)

[orf]

Originally Posted by JFelix

...But will probably bore you to death within those middle 90 minutes.)

Bah, the shit bath and the guy in the chicken costume aren't THAT boring.
Also...
Media Blasters English-to-English translation:
September 2002 -- September 2004

[MJZ]

Originally Posted by Morticia

MJZ -- don't take it so hard. Besides, none of these threads get locked after their weeks are up! "You're never late to Film Class"

Sorry Morticia, I took the date too literal and I had to run to catch the bus for class : outofbreath : .

Originally Posted by orf

Ok, time for me to start on the discussion I've been waiting ages to be posted.

I knew you'd get things started .

----------------------------------

I've read about some of the violence and have seen some glimces in the trailer. Now I can stomach most things, but I'll admit the glimces I saw made me cringe a bit.

What are your opinions on the violence in this film?

[orf]

Originally Posted by MJZ

What are your opinions on the violence in this film?

It's somewhat weak.
It's plenty more gory than most movies, but most of it is intentionally cheesy and quite hilarious. I think the worst thing was the nipple slashing, mainly because it kind of came out of nowhere. And even that wasn't too bad. If you have a weak stomach, it might be tough. But, if you're a hardened bastard like me, it's pretty damn funny.

[JFelix]

Originally Posted by MJZ

I've read about some of the violence and have seen some glimces in the trailer. Now I can stomach most things, but I'll admit the glimces I saw made me cringe a bit.

What are your opinions on the violence in this film?

The only thing REALLY horrid and un-cartoonishy about it is the nipple part, but that has mostly to do with the HORRIFYING SOUND EFFECTS.

Miike is a complete and utter masochist when it comes to sound effects.

And if you're 100% against any sort of misogyny, pretty much avoid it. Miike isn't the biggest fan of women on film, he said something to the effect of women bring too much logic to their roles and have to be gotten rid of quickly. Though it does work when concerning the characters themselves (I don't think mob bosses and pimps would be feminists...) some people might find it a tadddddddddddddd extreme.

Oh, the uncut version was screened at this year's Otakon (Anime festival in Baltimore) and a friend mentioned there was a large amount of walk-outs. Especially at the opening title card (The title of the film emerges from a large pool of semen.)

[MJZ]

Thanks for the information peeps.

I've seen the nipple bit and was no where near blowing chunks, a film has never induced this, it just made me do the watch with one eye closed thing. Like that's going to make it better .

[Mallrats]

Sometimes I think Miike goes for violence and graphicness for the shock value of it. When I first watched "Audition", I had to turn off the movie near the end because I wasn't ready for the graphicness of it. They can be hard to watch at times.

Currently, I'm watching his "Fudoh: The Next Generation" which although is an entertaining film, isn't as good as his others sound to be.

For Ichi, I thought the movie was a good mix of action and satire. I was laughing so hard at Jiji's "secret" that I had to turn the movie off for several minutes. Completely unexpected.

[JFelix]

Originally Posted by Mallrats

Sometimes I think Miike goes for violence and graphicness for the shock value of it.

Well, a lot of the time, Miike does adaptations of other's works, he's done multiple manga adaptations, and well, specifically in the case of 'Ichi the Killer', he actually held back.

Originally Posted by Mallrats

When I first watched "Audition", I had to turn off the movie near the end because I wasn't ready for the graphicness of it. They can be hard to watch at times.

It's all sound effects based, I think. If you really go into the 'gore' of it, it really isn't too bad. However, the sound effects, and on top of that the fact that you sat and observed these characters for 90 minutes straight and got to know them, there's the entire sucker-punch of the film.

Originally Posted by Mallrats

Currently, I'm watching his "Fudoh: The Next Generation" which although is an entertaining film, isn't as good as his others sound to be.

I'm actually a big fan of 'Fudoh'. It has a great level of goofiness I find charming. It's like an arty, classy Troma movie.

Originally Posted by Mallrats

For Ichi, I thought the movie was a good mix of action and satire. I was laughing so hard at Jiji's "secret" that I had to turn the movie off for several minutes. Completely unexpected.

Miike uses Shinya Tuskamoto in the most amusing ways. (Tsukamoto the director of the 'Tetsuo: the Iron man' series and a bunch of movies that sadly hasn't ever received release in the US.)

I especially love how miike used Tsukamoto at the beginning of 'Dead or Alive 2'. Tsukamoto plays an over-zealous magician, who sits there and narriates a story of gangsters, using cigarettes as people, and then goes on for about a minute STRAIGHT miming out with cigarettes a mob hit. He stands there, screams in horror, unwraps the cigarette container gruesomely, and throws cigarettes. Absolutely over-the-top, and probably rivals the opening scene in the original 'Dead or Alive' for energy value.

[SephirothClone]

Ok, I saw it last night when I was bored so its still fresh in my memory. Major SPOILERS below, so be warned.

Ichi the Killer to me is just an absolute perfect comic film. I read some of the manga a few years back before I saw the film and I was sort of impressed by it. But Miike's visual style is something that I have always adored. As a director I feel that he is up there with visually pleasing directors like The Wachowski Bros., The Huges Bros., Tarantino, and Tim Burton. All of them have this very comic booky look to their films and they pace them like its a total graphic treat. Then when you take this talent and add lots of violence, gore, and twisted shit, you have a perfect Miike film.

While my only issue with the film is what happened to Boss Anjo and if the room was so bloody and obviously the place of a murder, then why the Hell did Kakihara waste his time asking where Anjo is? Did he ever realize that he was on the walls... or parts of him?

I really have no issues with the violence factor because I personally believe that art imitates life and if Miike's opinion's of gang related life is that twisted, then let it be.

On the topic of it being a super hero movie. I stated that the film does have its comic traits and carries it very well through the film. Knowing this, I suppose we can look at Ichi as ther dark and tormented hero in black. Then we can look at Kakihara as the twisted clownish character dressed in purple. Hey! That reminds me of BATMAN and JOKER! To be quite honest, that is truly the best example of the relationship between the two characters. If you need evidence, take a look at the way both characters move during the slow-mo shots during the final fight. Kakihara moves very creepy and clownish, while Ichi makes his move slower and wiser like he has a fighting style. I suppose Ichi's true fighting style would be his turbo kick action with super sharp blades at the tips! Cut slash attack! Then lets not forget that both Kakihara and Joker fell off the top of a building only to die with a smile on their face! Coincidence?

So did Miike take traits from Batman and Joker and work off of their motivations and characters? I truly don’t know. As J posted earlier, both characters can be taken as hero's and villains. Ichi is criminally insane, and Kakihara just wants love. I suppose the ending leaves us with whatever interpetation we want.

Also, what does Koroshiya 1 mean?

[SephirothClone]

Originally Posted by orf

Ooooh. Ok, well, that makes better sense.

How did you not catch that?

[JFelix]

Originally Posted by SephirothClone

Also, what does Koroshiya 1 mean?

It means literally 'Ichi the Killer'
Or 'The Killer Ichi', really.

Anyway, I'll reply to what you said, I just got back from getting my ears and ass blown off from a Polysics concert, so I'm a little bit disorientated now.

[orf]

Originally Posted by SephirothClone

How did you not catch that?

I'm not sure. I always miss really important things in movies, yet catch small ones.

[SephirothClone]

Originally Posted by SephirothClone

While my only issue with the film is what happened to Boss Anjo and if the room was so bloody and obviously the place of a murder, then why the Hell did Kakihara waste his time asking where Anjo is? Did he ever realize that he was on the walls... or parts of him?

Ok, I take that back.

I was watching it with some friends and I realized that the dudes in the van we're the clean up crew. Oops.

[PorkChopXpress]

**SPOILERS ABOUND**



Okay, I finally got to see this movie after having to deal with lost orders and delays in shipping. I just have a few questions about how some viewed the ending.

Originally Posted by JFelix

That's Jiji. The boy at the end is Ichi. I think Ichi figures out he's being manipulated, which is completely freeing to him since the whole rape was a trick by Jijii. Once Ichi figures this out, Jiji realises he cannot control Ichi anymore and kills himself.

I thought this theory made perfect sense after first viewing it, but a small detail nagged me. I don't think the boy at the end looked that much like Ichi. I've freeze framed the final image and there is little doubt in my mind, and I could be wrong, it isn't Ichi. I've read the theories that point out he had a noticeable limp that likely would have been a result of his gunshot wound, but it just doesn't appear to be him. If I could get past this point, I would agree, on the whole, with your assessment.

I don't really know, but personally, I thought the boy at the end was Takeshi, the ex-cop's son, based on the small visual cue of the crow flying over his shoulder. Of course by assuming that the Takeshi is the person in the final shot requires a whole new line of reasoning as to why Jijii would kill himself. Using JFelix' explanation, if he realizes he can't control Ichi any longer why would he wait so many years later to kill himself? I don't think he would. So, I'm left still trying to piece together why Jijii kills himself. I'll have to think about it some more.

**Edited to omit extraneous info --12/20/03

Miike's a bit too fond of non (Or trick) endings if you ask me. I love the guy, but sometimes the endings, though once you put them together sort of makes sense, that doesn't make them any less staggering (I debated the ending of 'City of Lost Souls' with a bunch of friends afterwards and came to a conclusion which makes sense, but is still maddening.)

Would you mind sharing? I've thought about it some, but never really came to a satisfying explanation, myself.