Nudity in film.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

And being repetitive is a "bad" thing? You're not giving any real insight into your position. "I think it's repetitive" doesn't tell us why repetition is an issue for you, if you think it's good or bad and why, etc.

Peace...

It's an issue because of what we've been discussing in this Nudity thread. I generally don't like repetition unless it has some sort of ulterior motive in a film, but to have an actor be nude just to make a point you’ve already made, strikes me as bad repetition.

And furthermore...PAGE 9!

-PH

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

It's an issue because of what we've been discussing in this Nudity thread. I generally don't like repetition unless it has some sort of ulterior motive in a film, but to have an actor be nude just to make a point you’ve already made, strikes me as bad repetition.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Your view on repetition itself isn't relevant to this discussion on nudity but it certainly is in our mini-discussion on the nudity in HoV.

Now, I better understand your position. You feel the robe scene wasn't needed because it was a reiteration of a point already established and you generally feel repetition in a film is bad unless there's a good reason to be repetitive. Right?

I don't agree with that but at least you've supported your position.

Peace...

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I don't agree with that but at least you've supported your position.

Peace...

You don't agree that repetition is bad? Why?

-PH

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

You don't agree that repetition is bad? Why?

I don't think repetition is bad, in general, since it helps to remind us of things that could be considered important to keep in mind or not be forgotten. Of course, there are blatant abuses which can be annoying (some can argue Crash is an example of this) but I don't think the "repetition" in the case of HoV is an abuse, mainly because the point it relates to is subtle. It's part of the character development. It helps us better understand the character. I don't think a naked woman wearing a robe that is open in the front defines who the character is, but in the case of HoV it supports the development of one dimension of the character and we can agree this is not a one-dimension character.

Looking at lima's post a bit more carefully, her exposing her naked body does relate to comfort levels in the relationship but her closing the door also show some level of disgust at

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

the lie they had been living for so long

.

If she was a "prude", she would not have had the robe open in the first place and probably would not have done what she did on the stairs. I think the sexual dimension of her character is subtle and hidden and something that is similar to his

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

past and secret life

. It's a part of her that had not been explored before and when the bomb is dropped, I think that it came more to the foreground.

So, I don't think repetition, in general, is bad unless it's overdone and obvious to the point of being annoying.

See, I have no problem going into detail about why I feel a certain way about something.

Peace...

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

See, I have no problem going into detail about why I feel a certain way about something.

Peace...

Fess up man. You just wanted that 400th post. PH, dig deep within yourself and let him have it.

I know I ain't adding a thing to this thread, but I will say it is an excellent read.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

I know I ain't adding a thing to this thread, but I will say it is an excellent read.

Of course... that's what my participation tends to do to threads...

Peace...

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I don't think repetition is bad, in general, since it helps to remind us of things that could be considered important to keep in mind or not be forgotten. Of course, there are blatant abuses which can be annoying (some can argue Crash is an example of this) but I don't think the "repetition" in the case of HoV is an abuse, mainly because the point it relates to is subtle. It's part of the character development. It helps us better understand the character. I don't think a naked woman wearing a robe that is open in the front defines who the character is, but in the case of HoV it supports the development of one dimension of the character and we can agree this is not a one-dimension character.

Looking at lima's post a bit more carefully, her exposing her naked body does relate to comfort levels in the relationship but her closing the door also show some level of disgust at

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

.

If she was a "prude", she would not have had the robe open in the first place and probably would not have done what she did on the stairs. I think the sexual dimension of her character is subtle and hidden and something that is similar to his

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

. It's a part of her that had not been explored before and when the bomb is dropped, I think that it came more to the foreground.

No offense, but I have to be honest. I think you guys are reaching for substance where there is none.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

See, I have no problem going into detail about why I feel a certain way about something.

Well, I never accused you of doing that and I’m hoping that’s not a jab at me. I feel that I’ve been clear on my view and I think it's fairly obvious that I'm not afraid to air my views. It’s unneeded repetition that, in my opinion, does not further the character. The reason it doesn’t further her character is that we already know what we need to know about her. How much more clear do you need me to be?

-PH

[limacharliewhiskey]

I can sort of understand what Piratehunter is saying, but then I think part of reason for the nudity was to shock us a bit. The violence sure as hell shocked me throughout the movie, even when I knew it was coming. Faces getting blown off, jaws hanging off the face, just incredibly bloody scenes that effectively shocked the audience. I think the brief nudity was meant to achieve a bit of a similar effect, but not with as much impact.

Was it gratuitous nudity? Hard to say, because her character only pauses at the door for a second, then walks away immediately. It's not like the camera zoomed in up close and panned slowly up and down her entire body.

It is sometimes hard to say when nudity becomes gratuitous. Some people think any nudity whatsoever is gratuituous, even the shower scene in Schindler's List.

Does the nudity in A History of Violence add more to the story? To me, it does a little bit, and it does keep the shock factor going during a part of the movie where the tension slows down a bit.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by limacharliewhiskey

Does the nudity in A History of Violence add more to the story? To me, it does a little bit, and it does keep the shock factor going during a part of the movie where the tension slows down a bit.

I guess my question to you Lima, is if you think the scene added something to the story (even a little bit), do you think it added enough to be worth it in the context of this discussion?

You also brought up something that might make for another interesting thread. Shock Value. I generally think shock value that is either out of context to the film or is added in place of actual plot development, is a bad thing.

-PH

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

No offense, but I have to be honest. I think you guys are reaching for substance where there is none.

None taken.

Well, I never accused you of doing that and I’m hoping that’s not a jab at me. I feel that I’ve been clear on my view and I think it's fairly obvious that I'm not afraid to air my views.

It's not about accusation but I felt your asking me about repetition was a bit odd since I've thoroughly explained my view 10-ways from Sunday above.

How much more clear do you need me to be?

Not any more, now that you've explained the "repetition" point.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by limacharliewhiskey

I can sort of understand what Piratehunter is saying, but then I think part of reason for the nudity was to shock us a bit.

I can understand what he's saying as well, I just disagree with it and now I have a better understanding with which I can disagree.

As for the shock value, I didn't get that impression from that scene. I did from the more violent scenes and from the stairs scene, actually. The robe scene didn't shock me at all nor did the cheerleader scene. I can admit the cheerleader scene did have other effects on me.

Peace...

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Not any more, now that you've explained the "repetition" point.

Peace...

Well, I felt like I had already explained it, but I guess we're...uh...on the same page.

-PH

[limacharliewhiskey]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

I guess my question to you Lima, is if you think the scene added something to the story (even a little bit), do you think it added enough to be worth it in the context of this discussion?
-PH

For me, it did. That's one of the things with Cronenberg's style of filmmaking, is that while he's sometimes blunt about the message he wants to convey in his films, he comes out with subtle but memorable ways to help his actors create their characters.

How would the scene play out if Maria Bello were wearing panties and a bra in the scene? It'd be just like every other PG-13 movie out there. With the scene the way it is, the nudity feels as raw and uncensored as the violence does in the film. To me, the nudity feels in line and appropriate for the film, especially given the previous sex scene on the stairs.

You have to remember that as Viggo Mortensen's character Tom is transforming into his previous persona Joey, Maria Bello's character was also changing as she finds that her longtime husband has been deceiving her this entire time. Instead of role-playing as she did in the cheerleader scene, she finds her feelings genuinely changing, hating the Joey persona at first, but then maybe embracing it as she finds that she may be attracted to the bad-boy Joey more than the nice-guy Tom persona.

That was my interpretation of the characters and the movie, and it's why I thought A History of Violence was one of the best movies I've seen in a long time. It's become my favorite Cronenberg film now that I heartily recommend to anyone who's interested in it.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by limacharliewhiskey

You have to remember that as Viggo Mortensen's character Tom is transforming into his previous persona Joey, Maria Bello's character was also changing as she finds that her longtime husband has been deceiving her this entire time. Instead of role-playing as she did in the cheerleader scene, she finds her feelings genuinely changing, hating the Joey persona at first, but then maybe embracing it as she finds that she may be attracted to the bad-boy Joey more than the nice-guy Tom persona.

Brilliant. This could have used some spoilers but otherwise, it's a brilliant analysis.

Peace...

[Pirate]

I still don't agree with the scene choice, but I like lima's analysis and it's the best I've heard so far for the nudity. I still think the film would have been just as strong without it, but I appreciate your point of view.

-PH

[mighty mint]

Regarding the nudity-open-robe-scen in HoV - IMHO, this is not rocket-science. Tom's past has been laid open on the table. It is a past that he has hidden because of feeling the need to keep it completely private because he was ashamed of it. Nudity in that scene is exactly the visual representation of her new openness. Somehow Tom's past excited her and it is a part of her sexuality that had been hidden away for fear of exposure and a sense of shame. Showing nudity as a visual representation of openness is the oldest trick in the book. It was not gratuitous in that it panned long and hard. It was there just to symbolize what internally was going on with the wife. Cronenberg said quite openly that he considers sex and violence to be partners.

[Iguana Man]

Mighty Mint, when I first started to read your reply I thought you were talking about our Tom.....

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

Mighty Mint, when I first started to read your reply I thought you were talking about our Tom.....

I did too.

-PH

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

Mighty Mint, when I first started to read your reply I thought you were talking about our Tom.....

He is!

Great post, MM! I agree with your assessment as well as lima's.

Peace...

[mighty mint]

Originally Posted by mighty mint

Regarding the nudity-open-robe-scen in HoV - IMHO, this is not rocket-science. Tom's past has been laid open on the table. It is a past that he has hidden because of feeling the need to keep it completely private because he was ashamed of it. Nudity in that scene is exactly the visual representation of her new openness. Somehow Tom's past excited her and it is a part of her sexuality that had been hidden away for fear of exposure and a sense of shame. Showing nudity as a visual representation of openness is the oldest trick in the book. It was not gratuitous in that it panned long and hard. It was there just to symbolize what internally was going on with the wife. Cronenberg said quite openly that he considers sex and violence to be partners.

Of course, for Iggy, the nudey shot was long enough for him to rewind, pause and "get that feeling."

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by mighty mint

Of course, for Iggy, the nudey shot was long enough for him to rewind, pause and "get that feeling."

Like I said, I haven't even seen this movie yet and ... wait a damn minute. Are you insinuating...

Bastich!

[mighty mint]

Sure glad that Jessica Alba kept her dignity by keeping her clothes on in Sin City - that wouldn't compromise her persuing other "clothed stripper" roles at all. In fact, the amount of dignity she has kept is utterly amazing!

Jessica's pride and honor - doing her father proud!

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by mighty mint

Sure glad that Jessica Alba kept her dignity by keeping her clothes on in Sin City - that wouldn't compromise her persuing other "clothed stripper" roles at all. In fact, the amount of dignity she has kept is utterly amazing!

I don't have audio so I couldn't hear anything. Was that a music video or something?

I agree with you on the dignity point as she can obviously get work without having to expose her "parts", which is dignifying on its own.

Peace...

[Pirate]

I can't even get the page to load.