Nudity in film.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by MooglePorn

Because thy're entirely different levels of empathy, and if I worried about every tiny little tragedy anyone went through, I would never sleep.

But it’s still empathy and just because yours is more selective doesn’t mean that other people’s empathy is abnormal.

Originally Posted by MooglePorn

Do you see the subtle yet important difference between those two? Do you realize you're in camp two?

You are separating the two camps and there really is no separation. When I say I hope Portman doesn’t make a bad decision, it’s because I want her to continue to work. And, as I’ve said before, it’s not that I’m going to be disappointed in her as a person, it’s that I worry that it will affect her career in a negative way.

I expressed disappointment in the person in the advertising thread, but that is a different issue entirely.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

On a career level is one thing, what PH is talking about is something else. It's on a personal level.

We've been over this. I'm not speaking on a personal level. I'm speaking as a fan. The fact that I'm concerned for the actor does not mean that I think I'm personally involved. It means that, as an appreciator of their work, I am worried/concerned about their well being because I want them to continue to work. And yes, when I read interviews or see their political or charity work, it does add to my interest, but still only in the sense of appreciation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling empathic towards someone you don’t know. To say otherwise is more abnormal than anything I’ve said in this thread.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

We've been over this. I'm not speaking on a personal level. I'm speaking as a fan. The fact that I'm concerned for the actor does not mean that I think I'm personally involved. It means that, as an appreciator of their work, I am worried/concerned about their well being because I want them to continue to work.

The nature of the concerns you've mentioned in this thread are very much of a personal nature. Let's be real for a moment. Natalie Portman's nude pic being on the Internet won't terminate her career. We both know that. For you to be concerned about the possibility of that happening is the same as Natalie Portman's parents or siblings or personal friends being concerned. As a fan, you have no reason to be concerned about that since her career is more likely to be terminated by her death than by nude pics of her appearing on the Internet. So, she will continue to work, regardless of the pics. She gets work because of her acting ability and/or desire to play a certain role by those casting said role. Her family and personal friends are (or might be) concerned because they are her family and personal friends. You are neither, unless you know her personally or are her brother or something.

And yes, when I read interviews or see their political or charity work, it does add to my interest, but still only in the sense of appreciation.

Interest and appreciation of what? Of them as a person, since that stuff has nothing to do with their work.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling empathic towards someone you don’t know.

Agreed.

To say otherwise is more abnormal than anything I’ve said in this thread.

I haven't addressed the empathy issue yet BUT I will say empathy isn't black and white. Why must there always be extremes involved? What about the gray area,or in the case of empathy 'levels' of empathy?

I'll get to the empathy part now.

Peace...

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

The nature of the concerns you've mentioned in this thread are very much of a personal nature. Let's be real for a moment. Natalie Portman's nude pic being on the Internet won't terminate her career. We both know that. For you to be concerned about the possibility of that happening is the same as Natalie Portman's parents or siblings or personal friends being concerned. As a fan, you have no reason to be concerned about that since her career is more likely to be terminated by her death than by nude pics of her appearing on the Internet. So, she will continue to work, regardless of the pics. She gets work because of her acting ability and/or desire to play a certain role by those casting said role. Her family and personal friends are (or might be) concerned because they are her family and personal friends. You are neither, unless you know her personally or are her brother or something.

But I do have reason to be concerned. Several great actors have lost their careers due to bad decisions. The nudity aspect is really a separate thing here, though. I worry that if the movie is no good or is poorly received that the performance will be overshadowed by the fact that she’s nude. And for an artist that can be damaging.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Interest and appreciation of what? Of them as a person, since that stuff has nothing to do with their work.

Both.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I haven't addressed the empathy issue yet BUT I will say empathy isn't black and white. Why must there always be extremes involved? What about the gray area,or in the case of empathy 'levels' of empathy?

I already address that above. I said that my examples were extreme, but that they came from the same place.

[MooglePorn]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

You are separating the two camps and there really is no separation.

Oh, there REALLY is.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by MooglePorn

Oh, there REALLY is.

If you don’t explain any further, that means nothing.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

Why can’t it be both? Why is it wrong to wonder or worry that nude stills might damage someone’s career? If you want to continue to see that person work, why not be concerned?

In this specific case (Natalie Portman), that concern is completely unrealistic and almost laughable. Taking a step back and looking at it from a more general standpoint, you have no reason to "worry" unless that person's career has already shown signs of being shaky. Those signs should be evident (kinds of roles being landed, frequency of roles, etc). At the very least, your worry about something that's not an issue could be considered mis-placed, at the very least, and possibly paranoid at the very worst. In either case, it's inappropriate given the nature of your "relationship" with the person in question. Your concern has nothing to do with their work and while you want to raise the possibility of them not working as a result, that really doesn't work to legitimize your concern, especially since we've been talking about fair big names thus far.

The difference between the two "kinds" of concern I illustrate above is appropriateness. One concern focuses on the actor's work and the other focuses on the actor, which makes it personal. Why, because the focus is on a person, the actor.

This is where I think the misunderstanding lies. My concern is not the same concern family or friends would feel.

But it is. Ok, I don't necessarily mean literally since I don't know any actor's family feels about them or their work but things you're expressing concern about are clearly the kinds of things family and personal friends would be concerned about. I'm not equating your feelings and concerns with the actual feelings and concerns (if any) with the actor's family but you're definitely in that arena, which I feel is inappropriate for fans.

[quoet]My concern is for the actor, their career and the idea of have of that person (from articles, etc).[/quote]Obviously, this is true which is why I keep saying you're concern is more on a personal level than it really should be, at least IMO. Again, I fully respect your opinion even though I disagree with it and I'm not saying you should change your view.

but for other actors I’m solely concerned that a misstep could cause them to work less or get less quality roles. That’s all.

I understand that. That doesn't change the nature of your concern and doesn't change my position.

It’s the same concern I have when I don’t see Timothy Hutton working. I wonder why he’s not working as much and what caused the lack of work, etc, etc.

Maybe he's chosn not to work in a while. That's his business and none of ours.

How is that outside the sphere of fandom? As someone who has been part of the “business” and is working to get back into the business, these hypothetical/ theoretical/real situations, are of interest to me. I could very well be faced with some of these situations, so I see no reason not to look into them. Even for “casual fans,” these subjects can be of “normal” interest because human beings are always curious about other human beings.

They are outside the sphere of fandom because they aren't related to what it is that caused you to be a fan in the first place: their work. The only hypothetical possibility that has been raised in this thread is the impact of stills from a nude scene being posted on the Internet causing "damage" to one's career. The possiblity of that helping one's career hasn't been raised. Interesting. Casual fans who are male want to see naked female celebs. This is something we all know, so nude pics won't steer these guys away. Casual fans who are female will shake their heads at the males drooling over the pics and say, "Men " and send out more "men are idiots" joke e-mail messages.

I see where you're heading but it's just too thin for me.

I agree, but I am not one of these fans. If an actor or filmmaker did something I didn’t agree with or that hurt their career, scorn is the last thing they’d get from me. There seems to be this need to tear down celebrities and I am no party to that.

Really? I didn't get the impression in this thread. You stated DeNiro was a "bad example" because you knew what kind of card he had.

Again, this is where I think the confusion is. I feel like you guys are projecting onto me and making my “concern” more than it is.

We're just responding to what you're posting here.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

I would like to point out that this may also have to do with your level of empathy. Tom, Moogle, do you feel concern for people in foreign countries or people you see on the news who have suffered some kind of tragedy?

Yep and depending on the nature of the tragedy, my heart will go out to them more or less. I can't believe some of the stuff that goes on in the world and some of the stuff that goes on in response to tragedy. I applauded the Mexican gov't for sending troops with supplies to New Orleans in response to Katrina. I can't even begin to relate to how those who lost everything were going through.

I know those are extreme examples, but really they are the same as what we're talking about.

I'll pretend I didn't read this.

You don’t know those people, but do you wonder, worry or show concern for them? If your answer is “no,” then there’s our divide.

The answer is "yes", at least for me, but the difference is the nature of the concern I have for them. Additionally, as Moogle pointed out, this really isn't the same as what we're talking about now.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by mighty mint

One of my biggest dissappointments with an actor's choice -
Jamie Foxx in Stealth

Why Oh WHY!?

Do you mean why was he cast?

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by MooglePorn

Because thy're entirely different levels of empathy,

Exactly. I guess I didn't need to address the empathy issue at all.

Great post, Moogle... well stated.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

But it’s still empathy and just because yours is more selective doesn’t mean that other people’s empathy is abnormal.

Depending on the degree and nature of the empathy, I would agree.

You are separating the two camps and there really is no separation.

But there's hueg separation. One camp would be viewed as a "concerned person/fan" the other could be viewed any number of ways, most of which probably wouldn't be flattering.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

But I do have reason to be concerned. Several great actors have lost their careers due to bad decisions.

I don't dispute this but if this is going to be the ground you stand on, are you saying you don't trust the actors to make good decisions, based on past history?

The nudity aspect is really a separate thing here, though. I worry that if the movie is no good or is poorly received that the performance will be overshadowed by the fact that she’s nude. And for an artist that can be damaging.

I understand your point but in the case of Natalie Portman, it's unrealistic. Hell Vanessa Williams posed in Playboy and she's made several movies since all that went down. As for others' perception of any given performance, that's far too speculative. I thought Jamie Foxx kicked ass as Ray Charles, others disagreed and thought Jaoquin (sp?) Phoenix did a better job. There will always be those who want to see nekkid celebs.

Both.

That wasn't an actual question. I was stating your interest and appreciation was in the person, and not the work since Ms Portman is an actress and her politics and charitable work is part of her what??? Her personal life.

I already address that above. I said that my examples were extreme, but that they came from the same place.

Yep, playing catchup.

Peace...

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

The difference between the two "kinds" of concern I illustrate above is appropriateness. One concern focuses on the actor's work and the other focuses on the actor, which makes it personal. Why, because the focus is on a person, the actor.

Yes and for some actors it’s purely a work issue for others it’s a bit more. You are taking the word “worry” to mean that I have a real concern that is causing me distress. When I say worry, I mean in the most basic sense.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Obviously, this is true which is why I keep saying you're concern is more on a personal level than it really should be, at least IMO. Again, I fully respect your opinion even though I disagree with it and I'm not saying you should change your view.

As I pointed out my concern is as a fan. You think I’m making it personal, but I’m really not. In some cases, like with Portman, I happen to think she’s a strong individual as well as an actor so the support is a bit stronger, but with most it’s only as a fan.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Maybe he's chosn not to work in a while. That's his business and none of ours.

But it is our business as fans because we want him to work.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

They are outside the sphere of fandom because they aren't related to what it is that caused you to be a fan in the first place: their work. The only hypothetical possibility that has been raised in this thread is the impact of stills from a nude scene being posted on the Internet causing "damage" to one's career. The possiblity of that helping one's career hasn't been raised. Interesting. Casual fans who are male want to see naked female celebs. This is something we all know, so nude pics won't steer these guys away. Casual fans who are female will shake their heads at the males drooling over the pics and say, "Men " and send out more "men are idiots" joke e-mail messages.

I see where you're heading but it's just too thin for me.

I don’t feel it’s too thin, I just think the point is being missed. I’m not saying the nude pics WILL hurt her career, but they could become and unwelcome byproduct. And I agree that such pics can and have helped peoples career and I’m pretty sure you can guess how I feel about that.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Really? I didn't get the impression in this thread. You stated DeNiro was a "bad example" because you knew what kind of card he had.

I’ve already addressed that it’s a different concern than film decisions.

[tomdkat]

Look man, I've said my piece and I've explained my side thoroughly.

If this thread gets back to the merits of tasteful nudity in film, I'll jump back in. Otherwise, I'm done with the PH "introspection".

Peace...

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I don't dispute this but if this is going to be the ground you stand on, are you saying you don't trust the actors to make good decisions, based on past history?

Wait. What? I’m saying that there have been actors that have been in bad films that lead to their career taking a nosedive. It has nothing to do with trusting them. Sometimes a bad film may have looked good on paper.

Originally Posted by tomdkat

That wasn't an actual question. I was stating your interest and appreciation was in the person, and not the work since Ms Portman is an actress and her politics and charitable work is part of her what??? Her personal life.

As, I’ve said, she is a special case in this discussion. Her work on social issues just happened to catch my attention.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Look man, I've said my piece and I've explained my side thoroughly.

If this thread gets back to the merits of tasteful nudity in film, I'll jump back in. Otherwise, I'm done with the PH "introspection".

Hey, I had no interest in this thread becoming about me. It just kept wandering back to me and my "radical" views.

But I agree. We're going around in circles here.

[limacharliewhiskey]

Originally Posted by mighty mint

One of my biggest dissappointments with an actor's choice -
Jamie Foxx in Stealth

Why Oh WHY!?

Actually, Foxx filmed Stealth (in 2003) before getting his breakthrough roles in Collateral and Ray. Before Collateral, Foxx's Hollywood career was kind of floundering.

Before that, he got some recognition for his role in Ali, but that didn't make him an A-list actor yet. Before that, he was in Bait and Any Given Sunday.

Collateral was what put him back on the A-list track, and his performance in Ray followed. Stealth came out after both because of the heavy special effects that needed to be done for the film.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

But I agree. We're going around in circles here.

Circles? Yeah....perhaps, but it has been a fantastic read which I applaude all of you for. You're gonna love what I've done for you PH. I, thru my stocking have liberated Natalie for all of us to enjoy! I know, I know....you can't thank me enough, but it's all in good fun my friend.

[Pirate]

As Miss Portman's guardian and all around protector, I must protest your post! You die at dawn, sir!

[MooglePorn]

Originally Posted by piratehunter

If you don’t explain any further, that means nothing.

But I have explained it, over and over again. Why keep explaining it if you're just going to pretend the difference isn't there and ask me to go over it again? If you can read the two quotes I had in that post, and not understand the seperation, there's just no talking to you about it, I guess.

So I'll bow out like Tom.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by MooglePorn

But I have explained it, over and over again. Why keep explaining it if you're just going to pretend the difference isn't there and ask me to go over it again? If you can read the two quotes I had in that post, and not understand the seperation, there's just no talking to you about it, I guess.

So I'll bow out like Tom.

But you didn't actually address what I said. You took my words out of proportion and created and irrelevant argument. That's why I asked you to explain further. I read what you wrote, but you didn't actually answer my question.

But, since you've bowed out...I guess I'm talking to myself.

[mighty mint]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

They critic the choices the coach makes since those choices impact the team and they question whether the coach is doing his/her job, as coach, effectively. All of that critic is on a professional, not personal, level.

You either hang around alot of girls or you need to hang around a few more sport bars...everyone there with a beer in his hand is a professional critic and YES they take it VERY personally!!

Concerning Jaime Foxx. I did know that he had done Stealth before Ray but I did not know it was done before Collateral...as for when he jumped ahead on the actors list - I really think Any Given Sunday was his jump point...but I digress.

This aspect of empathy is really interesting because I work everyday in a field that requires it of me. I work with broken people all day long and so I believe I am able to discern what is approporiate levels of empathy and what is not. I don't lose a wink of sleep over Nats decision to do porn for Iggy but as a fan it does make me wonder for 1.2 minutes. PH is simpy trying to make some points and I respect him for that. I don't imagine him buying a camoflage hat that looks like a shrub along with binocs to spy out the choices of his favorite actors. Empathy is empathy but Moogle is defiinitely correct (IMHO) that there are certainly different levels of it in accordance with personal connection and seriousness of situation. I am sure that PH would NOT disagree with that. He is just trying to be heard and understood.

Now, back on track, I am glad that Jaime Foxx did not go nude in Ray or Collateral