Wired article: "Why Nintendo Won't Grow Up" - DVDfile.com forum for DVD, Blu-Ray, and HD-DVD

Prospero · 12-11-2002, 04:44 PM

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At 50, [Shigeru] Miyamoto is one of the most successful artists of the past century. And his success hasn't been merely financial. He has created the game industry's only instantly recognizable aesthetic - colorful, cartoonish, whimsical. He also pioneered a slew of features, from 3-D to nonlinear gameplay to original music, that serve as a kind of DNA for today's titles. That has earned him the respect, and often awe, of fellow designers. Says Toshihiro Nagoshi, creator of Super Monkey Ball, "To me, Miyamoto is like God."

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Nintendo has always insisted that its market spans the age spectrum. Indeed, two non-Miyamoto titles introduced at E3 - the bloody Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem and the alien shoot-out Metroid Prime - are a far cry from Zelda. But none of Nintendo's new offerings have generated a buzz equal to the one that greeted Grand Theft Auto 3.

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"He is not helping things," says Seamus Blackley, the former head of Microsoft's Xbox team who now runs the Capital Entertainment Group, an independent production company. Blackley is in Makuhari, Japan, on the final day of September's Tokyo Games Show. He speaks for many game designers raised on Miyamoto's innovations - developers who admire the master's work but are desperate for something new.

"At this point," Blackley continues, "Miyamoto is making games for his fans. Granted, there are millions of them, and it's smart business, but most are kids. He's not opening up adult audiences. He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."

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"[Pikmin] was an amazing game," says Lorne Lanning, creator of the Oddworld series. "But it was about cute little carrots." He's quick to add that he finds Miyamoto's games inspiring as a designer. "But I don't play them for the same reason I don't watch Powerpuff Girls."

Discuss.

egman · 12-11-2002, 06:05 PM

A very interesting read. Personally, I do not agree with Miyamoto's detractors and I really think he hit the core issue right on it's head in this section

"In his view, it is the urge to imitate cinema - not his own unwillingness to compromise - that impedes the industry's evolution. "Videogames do not have any competitive edge over movies as an entertainment form. We have to pursue something that movies cannot do." Just what that is, however, is hard for him to articulate. "The most important thing is for games to be fun," he says. "I cannot tell you exactly what that means. It is something you feel, I think."

I can really see where he is coming from with that idea. It's like the gulf between the theater and video that has closed considerably in the last few years. Why would I want to the theater when I can get something close to it at home? And in the case with the games, I would I want to play a game about the movie when I can just watch the movie without having to add the extra effort of actually thinking my way through that game?

I also disagree with how the critics seem to think that being grittier with content will attract more users. Violent or sexual graphics and situations will still appeal to the juvenille.

If I had to pick a game the seems to point the way to mass the accpetance of gaming, it would be The Sims. The Sims have sold millions to a wide range of age groups without tyring to imitate the movies or trying to explicitly push adult subject matter. Essentially, it offers that "experince" that Miyamoto says that could only be had with a video game.

This is not to deny that something like GTA isn't hitting a nerve. Obviously something's going on, but I think we have to look at the numbers more carefully see to how far this style of game is really reaching the people.

elwood731 · 12-11-2002, 06:33 PM

I think you're right. The Sims is a perfect example of why games with more violence and sex will not necessarily draw more people to game. My friends who do not play games do not want to play GTA3 when they come over, but they want to play something like Super Monkey Ball, which is incredibly cartoonish in nature.

I think people misread the success of GTA3 having to do with the sex and violence. In my opinion, the game would sell just as many, if not more, copies without those elements. The game has been such a huge hit because it offers a gaming experience that had never been experienced before. While it does make good use of its mature rating, I think it is unfair to say that is what made it a success, or that it even contributed highly to its success. People play games that are fun.

While I think MGS2 is a blast, a game like Sly Cooper comes along and shows many of the same elements can be done without the "adult" theme, and still be a great game.

I think the market has room for all kinds of games, but publishers are fooling themselves if they think sex and violence will draw in an audience that doesn't normally play games. Unique, non-traditional game types will, however.

Prospero · 12-11-2002, 09:40 PM

I think that part of the problem with the current state of gaming is the studio model that games are produced under. During the 1980s, superstars of the gaming industry were individual names, not studios (Shigeru Miyamoto, Will Wright, Michael Cranford, Brian Fargo, John Carmack, Roberta Williams, Steve Meretzky, Al Lowe, and Geoff Crammond, to name a few). Only Miyamoto and Wright (IMO) have been able to successfully make the transition into the new, studio based model, partly because their games sold so amazingly well.

Under the studio model, you get fewer games and games that are more similar to each other, because the studio model doesn't allow for the idiosyncracy that comes from a single designer or a very small team working alone; moreover, games are expensive, and the people footing the bills know they have a better chance of getting a better return on Doom III than on something quirky and new. (Go to a Commodore 64 abandonware site sometime and look at the amazing variety of stuff there to see how things have changed.) In addition, critics and, by extension, the gaming public have been trained to believe that the things that make a good movie also make a good videogame (most of the money goes into FMVs, sound design, graphics, and things that generally improve "cinematography"), and that isn't necessarily the case.

In this new economic model, there are very few individuals, most of whom are left over from the '80s, that have the power to see a highly personal, original idea through to completion (Miyamoto's Pikmin and Wright's The Sims are good examples). That should be what designers are complaining about, not whether Miyamoto games are kiddie games.

MooglePorn · 12-11-2002, 09:58 PM

1. The only people who bitch about Nintendo being too kiddy are those who have had it beaten into their skulls that that is the truth. Same as a movie with negative buzz, no one has seen it, but everyone talks about how bad it is.

2. Seamus Blackley should shut the fuck up about Miyamoto, who has made so much more of a contribution to the game industry it makes Blackley look like a pumpkin seed next to the empire state building.

3. Nintendo has Resident Evil, Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime, and many other adult themed games, yet they are still considered kids only because of reason 1. I'm sure all these people who have written EGM or whatever bitching about the GCN being for kids don't own one, probably never played one, and are missing out on some good gaming simply because of stereotypes. People annoy me.

sub780lime · 12-11-2002, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MooglePorn

3. Nintendo has Resident Evil, Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime, and many other adult themed games, yet they are still considered kids only because of reason 1. I'm sure all these people who have written EGM or whatever bitching about the GCN being for kids don't own one, probably never played one, and are missing out on some good gaming simply because of stereotypes. People annoy me.

i agree with some of what your saying, i dont own a cube anymore because it was too kiddy, i just didnt enjoy the titles, it had some great games, but it seems that Nintendo likes to put out kiddy games, so i dont like the first parties nintendo puts out compared to Microsoft---my 2 cents

egman · 12-11-2002, 10:37 PM

Moogle has point as well. I think even amoung the professionals there is a hint of fanboyism when it comes to the system war. But I think that would only hold for so long until to many gamers get burned to many times by games that promise something new and innovative, but turn out to be nothing more than a visual fest.

Prospero's point about individuals was very interesting. Maybe the maturity that the industry is growing into needs to be reflected by a more artistic, individual approach to game making as opposed to trying to dress the games in adult clothes. It might be time to return to enter a world of "auteur" game designers.

MooglePorn · 12-11-2002, 10:37 PM

Anyone who can enjoy a Disney movie like Lion King even though it's animation and rated G can like a Mario game even though it's brightly colored and rated G...

Sublime, what was too kiddy? Mario may be kid friendly, but it is certainly not adult prohibitive. It's not like Barney or some such thing, it's just G rated. There's really nothing wrong with that, I really don't understand...

egman · 12-11-2002, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MooglePorn
Anyone who can enjoy a Disney movie like Lion King even though it's animation and rated G can like a Mario game even though it's brightly colored and rated G...

Sublime, what was too kiddy? Mario may be kid friendly, but it is certainly not adult prohibitive. It's not like Barney or some such thing, it's just G rated. There's really nothing wrong with that, I really don't understand...

This is another thing that bothers me. What the hell does it mean to be adult in a video game? I don't think the game industry is in consensus on this point as one can see with the rift between industry people like Miyamoto and Blackley. And certainly the consumer base reflects this reality as well.

MooglePorn · 12-11-2002, 11:10 PM

I just think it's the stereotype that mainly causes people to say "too kiddy" when it comes to Nintendo... Mario Sunshine is one of (if not the) best 3D platform games out there. Just because it has no cuss words or naughty humor doesn't mean it's only for kids... and who cares if it's cute? So are Moogles for God's sake but that certainly doesn't mean Final Fantasy is for kids... it just baffles me.

To say a game is kiddy should mean the gameplay is for kids...

debz · 12-12-2002, 12:42 AM

a good example of the difference in just the way people think is Perfect Dark 0 if it was know that when the game was for GC it was going to be cell shaded people would have been pissed that nintendo was "wrecking" the adult nature of the game. now that the game is for the xbox I haven't heard a bad thing about it being a cell shaded game, most things I hear are positive and people think it was a great move by Rare.

is that fare?

sub780lime · 12-12-2002, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MooglePorn
Anyone who can enjoy a Disney movie like Lion King even though it's animation and rated G can like a Mario game even though it's brightly colored and rated G...

Sublime, what was too kiddy? Mario may be kid friendly, but it is certainly not adult prohibitive. It's not like Barney or some such thing, it's just G rated. There's really nothing wrong with that, I really don't understand...

its interesting, because i think it falls more into my own preference for a game, i do not like third person games with repetitve tidious missions, this is all how i view some games, so a games like mario is just like that for me, i also dont like that type of animation and i think you find more of it on the cube than lets say xbox or even PS2 (but with so many titles it has everything) im trying not be a fanboy here, i had both systems and i stuck with one, the Cube just didnt have enough to offer to me
i also agree it is not Adult Prohibited, you can definately tell the difference between a game made strictly for kids and one made for that middle ground--this is how mario is-thats good

is that fare?

do you mean Fair

MooglePorn · 12-12-2002, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sub780lime
[b]its interesting, because i think it falls more into my own preference for a game, i do not like third person games with repetitve tidious missions, this is all how i view some games, so a games like mario is just like that for me, i also dont like that type of animation and i think you find more of it on the cube than lets say xbox or even PS2 (but with so many titles it has everything) im trying not be a fanboy here, i had both systems and i stuck with one, the Cube just didnt have enough to offer to me
i also agree it is not Adult Prohibited, you can definately tell the difference between a game made strictly for kids and one made for that middle ground--this is how mario is-thats good

I know Subby, I ain't bitching at you really... I just don't like people who own shit like Jack & Daxter but say Mario Sunshine is too kiddy... I know some people like that and it pisses me off... makes no sense to me...

whedon · 12-12-2002, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MooglePorn
To say a game is kiddy should mean the gameplay is for kids...

The nail has been hit on the head!

sub780lime · 12-12-2002, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MooglePorn
Subby

sounds like a little sandwich

MooglePorn · 12-12-2002, 02:38 AM

You should be proud...:p

Prospero · 12-12-2002, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MooglePorn
To say a game is kiddy should mean the gameplay is for kids...

Pikmin got nailed for being a kiddy game because of its bright colors, simple shapes, and lack of violence. But I would consider that to be the most original game I've played on a next-gen console thus far (including Metroid Prime). And it wasn't exactly easy. I found sections of it near the end to be really challenging, and I doubt very many young children have developed the necessary reasoning skills to get very far in the game.

Mary-Kate and Ashley: Sweet 16, on the other hand... there's a kid's game.

MooglePorn · 12-12-2002, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prospero
Pikmin got nailed for being a kiddy game because of its bright colors, simple shapes, and lack of violence. But I would consider that to be the most original game I've played on a next-gen console thus far (including Metroid Prime). And it wasn't exactly easy. I found sections of it near the end to be really challenging, and I doubt very many young children have developed the necessary reasoning skills to get very far in the game.

Mary-Kate and Ashley: Sweet 16, on the other hand... there's a kid's game.

Ex-Fucking-actly

EDIT: Mario Sunshine isn't all that easy either, I'd like to see a 12 year old get 120 Shines on that Sum-Bitch...

Enzian · 12-12-2002, 03:07 AM

While I am sure most Nintendo games play very well and are every bit as engrossing as any other game (perhaps more, judging from Nintendo's track record) why, oh why, must Nintendo take these great games and put animals in them?

Take Starfox. Why not put a human behind the controls? A human behind the controls - without a cartoony "Mario-ish" look - would spark my interest.

These games do not appeal to me, anymore. When I was a kid, I used to stop the TV on anything animated. An animated version of orthoscopic surgury would have kept my attention for hours. Now, I don't even take my thumb off the remote when I see animation - I just keep on clickin'. While Looney Tunes might be just as great as The Three Stooges, I'll pause at T3S.

Microsoft is trying to get their console into HT setups everywhere. Kids don't have HT. Kids don't buy 5.1 setups that can take advantage of 5.1 games. Microsoft is trying to capture the aging gamer demographic, like me. I grew up on Sierra with Roberta Williams and Al Lowe making King's Quest and Space Quest. I grew up in the NES' glory days. Renting cartridges. Trading secrets around the cafeteria table. Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, b, a. I saw an ad for Civ3 on CNN! Splinter Cell ads are airing during Prime Time network TV.

Now, I play Civilization 3. Sim City 3k. MOH. It's more my style.

I buy my son a Gamecube, and I get the XBox. Cartoons vs. HBO. They both have great games, but there's no denying the fact that the latest version of Mario World isn't gonna hold my interest like Civ 4 will.

I bought an N64 because I loved Mario Cart 64. That's pretty much the reason. One game. Golden Eye was cool. What else? Banjo Kazooie held my attention for a while. I am very tired of cartoony games. That is my opinion - you cannot refute that.

MooglePorn · 12-12-2002, 03:14 AM

It sounds like they aren't your style of games in the first place though, which is different. As I said, those who play something like Jack & Daxter but not Mario are being silly IMO, those who played Panzer Dragoon Orta but say Starfox (the upcoming shooter one) is kiddy are silly... if you like a style of game, and one game is the best of that style, and you don't play it because it has bright colors, you being a silly silly man...

elwood731 · 12-12-2002, 04:52 AM

Enzian, why put StarFox as the lead? Why make Blinx a cat?

You ignore animation? Well, then you missed two of the best films of the year in Lilo and Stitch and Ice Age. Batman: The Animated Series was vastly surperior to any of the films, and I would argue to other super hero films as well. The Simpsons and South Park remain, to me at least, the funniest and wittiest shows on television. If you ignore animation, then you are missing out on a lot. That's your right, don't get me wrong, but I think you're missing a whole lot.

MOH is on the GC, and both Civ and Sim City have appeared on Nintendo systems. It kind of reminds me of the people who say Disney should do more adult films, and then no one goes to see Treasure Planet or Atlantis. No one saw Titan AE either, but they will flock to see Ice Age.

I am not attacking you, but I personally don't see the logic of people who make this criticism.

Nintendo makes Eternal Darkness? Others make BMX XXX? Which is more of a mature/adult game?

Nintendo makes Metroid Prime? Others make naked volleyball games? Which is more mature or adult? Metroid seems very mature, while the other seems juvenille to me. Eternal Darkness is the most adult game I have ever played on a console, to be honest.

Enzian you sound like you're more into PC games, actually. In which case, it doesn't matter which console you own, because the types of games you listed simply aren't on them.

But still, the argument confuses me. People hate the new style of Zelda, yet it is done in an anime style which is very popular with adults in Japan, and some in the US. It's all public perception, rather than what is actually there.

Enzian · 12-12-2002, 05:19 AM

I liked Lilo and Stitch very much. Ice Age was a "take it or leave it" movie. Meh. If it weren't for my son, I wouldn't have seen them. That's right. I would never have gone. Would've been my loss. Yep. Them's the breaks.

Right now, I'm looking to buy a console. I'm in the market and my dollars are being bid for.

I look at the titles for the GC at EB. All I see are cartoons staring back at me. And Resident Evil. A couple Star Wars titles. That is my "impression". Correct or not, that is my impression. Cartoons do not appeal to me. The quality of games means nothing if I don't have that attraction. "Good personality" means nothing if the looks are hideous. I'll never buy her a drink. So to speak, of course.

That leaves me with XBox or PS2. Hmm. I don't have a PSX, so the backwards compatibility means nothing to me. And, based on my impression, I think the XBox will walk with my money. Live! only accepts broadband conex - good. Games look interesting. Halo, MechAssault - these games drink for free in my world.

Heh.

hamholio · 12-12-2002, 07:36 AM

Enzian must be a Republican, nothing else is that cold.

Enzian · 12-12-2002, 04:01 PM

Don't even get me started, Hamholio.

Ispep Aloc · 12-12-2002, 04:35 PM

If the Gamecube only has kiddie games, why did Sony censor BMX XXX and Nintendo allow for the uncensored version?

Consoles are what people make of them. Yes, Nintendo has a reputation for putting out more games more suited for families. Does that make them "kiddie." Here's a list of games that are either out or coming out soon. Guess which systems they belong to.

-Metroid Prime
-Dead or Alive Beach Vollyball
-Outlaw Golf
-Outlaw Vollyball
-Mario Party 4
-Grand Theft Auto 3 or Vice City
-Spyro the Dragon
-Sonic Mega Collection
-Die Hard Vendetta
-Medal of Honor Frontline
-Splintered Cell

Out of all the Xbox games that are out there, how many of those games are not geared toward everyone and not specifically male or female. Sony clearly has games that are geared for a family audience. Sony has Spyro, Crash, etc. And I understand that some of those games has migrated onto the other systems. Nintendo has Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox and others.

When I say Family or Family audience, I mean that they games that are suitable for everyone in the family no matter what age they are. Games could be rated E or T.

Prospero · 12-12-2002, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Enzian
I look at the titles for the GC at EB. All I see are cartoons staring back at me. And Resident Evil. A couple Star Wars titles. That is my "impression". Correct or not, that is my impression. Cartoons do not appeal to me. [. . .]

That leaves me with XBox or PS2. Hmm. I don't have a PSX, so the backwards compatibility means nothing to me. And, based on my impression, I think the XBox will walk with my money. Live! only accepts broadband conex - good. Games look interesting. Halo, MechAssault - these games drink for free in my world.

Are you saying that Metroid Prime and Starfox Adventures look kid-oriented, but a game based on Battletech doesn't? Or Halo, which is basically a B-grade science-fiction serial?

Though I can see the logic behind the argument that the Xbox's marketing lets an adult feel more comfortable with playing games without feeling they're doing something immature (what with the big black box and all), it's only gamers that seem to perceive a difference between the "maturity" of the games on the two systems--if a non-gamer walks into the room when I'm holding a console controller, I'm going to have just as much sheepish explaining to do, whether I'm playing on a Cube or an Xbox. Going back to the article above, however you may feel about what Blackley says about Miyamoto, it is true that videogaming in general has a stereotype about being for kids, no matter what system you're playing on.

Many games on all systems have the appearance of being "for adults": on the other hand, they're not doing much to advance innovation in gameplay, at least not on the order of a game like Pikmin. Civ 3 I already played when it was Civ 2. Sim City 3k I already played when it was Sim City. MOH I already played when it was Wolfenstein 3D. I've never played a game similar to Pikmin. You could argue that Lemmings is in the neighborhood, but it's not nearly the same.

Pikmin's graphic design had to be conceptually simple and "childlike" in order to make it playable--it has a hard enough learning curve as it is without additional distractions. This tends to be

12-11-2002, 06:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
elwood731 Moderator Emeritus On a mission from God Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Kentucky	I think you're right. The Sims is a perfect example of why games with more violence and sex will not necessarily draw more people to game. My friends who do not play games do not want to play GTA3 when they come over, but they want to play something like Super Monkey Ball, which is incredibly cartoonish in nature. I think people misread the success of GTA3 having to do with the sex and violence. In my opinion, the game would sell just as many, if not more, copies without those elements. The game has been such a huge hit because it offers a gaming experience that had never been experienced before. While it does make good use of its mature rating, I think it is unfair to say that is what made it a success, or that it even contributed highly to its success. People play games that are fun. While I think MGS2 is a blast, a game like Sly Cooper comes along and shows many of the same elements can be done without the "adult" theme, and still be a great game. I think the market has room for all kinds of games, but publishers are fooling themselves if they think sex and violence will draw in an audience that doesn't normally play games. Unique, non-traditional game types will, however. __________________ "Stupid people surround themselves with smart people. Smart people surround themselves with smart people who disagree with them." - Sports Night "You may not be a maniac, but neither should to remain an impotent!" - Damian

12-11-2002, 09:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
Prospero Actor Join Date: Mar 2001	I think that part of the problem with the current state of gaming is the studio model that games are produced under. During the 1980s, superstars of the gaming industry were individual names, not studios (Shigeru Miyamoto, Will Wright, Michael Cranford, Brian Fargo, John Carmack, Roberta Williams, Steve Meretzky, Al Lowe, and Geoff Crammond, to name a few). Only Miyamoto and Wright (IMO) have been able to successfully make the transition into the new, studio based model, partly because their games sold so amazingly well. Under the studio model, you get fewer games and games that are more similar to each other, because the studio model doesn't allow for the idiosyncracy that comes from a single designer or a very small team working alone; moreover, games are expensive, and the people footing the bills know they have a better chance of getting a better return on Doom III than on something quirky and new. (Go to a Commodore 64 abandonware site sometime and look at the amazing variety of stuff there to see how things have changed.) In addition, critics and, by extension, the gaming public have been trained to believe that the things that make a good movie also make a good videogame (most of the money goes into FMVs, sound design, graphics, and things that generally improve "cinematography"), and that isn't necessarily the case. In this new economic model, there are very few individuals, most of whom are left over from the '80s, that have the power to see a highly personal, original idea through to completion (Miyamoto's Pikmin and Wright's The Sims are good examples). That should be what designers are complaining about, not whether Miyamoto games are kiddie games. __________________ "US will commodify your discontent, sell it back to you on DVD." --Bruce Sterling

12-11-2002, 10:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
egman Actor Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Lawrenceville, GA	Moogle has point as well. I think even amoung the professionals there is a hint of fanboyism when it comes to the system war. But I think that would only hold for so long until to many gamers get burned to many times by games that promise something new and innovative, but turn out to be nothing more than a visual fest. Prospero's point about individuals was very interesting. Maybe the maturity that the industry is growing into needs to be reflected by a more artistic, individual approach to game making as opposed to trying to dress the games in adult clothes. It might be time to return to enter a world of "auteur" game designers. Last edited by egman : 12-11-2002 at 10:41 PM.

12-12-2002, 12:42 AM	#11 (permalink)
debz Actor Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: canada	a good example of the difference in just the way people think is Perfect Dark 0 if it was know that when the game was for GC it was going to be cell shaded people would have been pissed that nintendo was "wrecking" the adult nature of the game. now that the game is for the xbox I haven't heard a bad thing about it being a cell shaded game, most things I hear are positive and people think it was a great move by Rare. is that fare? __________________ to order import games/movies head over to http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-17ai.html below is a link to a stupid video I made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IQ1nTfvMX4

12-12-2002, 03:07 AM	#19 (permalink)
Enzian Producer/Admin Emeritus Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Fort Phoenix	While I am sure most Nintendo games play very well and are every bit as engrossing as any other game (perhaps more, judging from Nintendo's track record) why, oh why, must Nintendo take these great games and put animals in them? Take Starfox. Why not put a human behind the controls? A human behind the controls - without a cartoony "Mario-ish" look - would spark my interest. These games do not appeal to me, anymore. When I was a kid, I used to stop the TV on anything animated. An animated version of orthoscopic surgury would have kept my attention for hours. Now, I don't even take my thumb off the remote when I see animation - I just keep on clickin'. While Looney Tunes might be just as great as The Three Stooges, I'll pause at T3S. Microsoft is trying to get their console into HT setups everywhere. Kids don't have HT. Kids don't buy 5.1 setups that can take advantage of 5.1 games. Microsoft is trying to capture the aging gamer demographic, like me. I grew up on Sierra with Roberta Williams and Al Lowe making King's Quest and Space Quest. I grew up in the NES' glory days. Renting cartridges. Trading secrets around the cafeteria table. Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, b, a. I saw an ad for Civ3 on CNN! Splinter Cell ads are airing during Prime Time network TV. Now, I play Civilization 3. Sim City 3k. MOH. It's more my style. I buy my son a Gamecube, and I get the XBox. Cartoons vs. HBO. They both have great games, but there's no denying the fact that the latest version of Mario World isn't gonna hold my interest like Civ 4 will. I bought an N64 because I loved Mario Cart 64. That's pretty much the reason. One game. Golden Eye was cool. What else? Banjo Kazooie held my attention for a while. I am very tired of cartoony games. That is my opinion - you cannot refute that. __________________ Ficht nicht mit Der Raketemensch! XBox Gamertag: Enzian 00001 Elitism is ok, so long as you keep it in your pants...or something like that.

12-11-2002, 06:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
egman Actor Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Lawrenceville, GA	A very interesting read. Personally, I do not agree with Miyamoto's detractors and I really think he hit the core issue right on it's head in this section "In his view, it is the urge to imitate cinema - not his own unwillingness to compromise - that impedes the industry's evolution. "Videogames do not have any competitive edge over movies as an entertainment form. We have to pursue something that movies cannot do." Just what that is, however, is hard for him to articulate. "The most important thing is for games to be fun," he says. "I cannot tell you exactly what that means. It is something you feel, I think." I can really see where he is coming from with that idea. It's like the gulf between the theater and video that has closed considerably in the last few years. Why would I want to the theater when I can get something close to it at home? And in the case with the games, I would I want to play a game about the movie when I can just watch the movie without having to add the extra effort of actually thinking my way through that game? I also disagree with how the critics seem to think that being grittier with content will attract more users. Violent or sexual graphics and situations will still appeal to the juvenille. If I had to pick a game the seems to point the way to mass the accpetance of gaming, it would be The Sims. The Sims have sold millions to a wide range of age groups without tyring to imitate the movies or trying to explicitly push adult subject matter. Essentially, it offers that "experince" that Miyamoto says that could only be had with a video game. This is not to deny that something like GTA isn't hitting a nerve. Obviously something's going on, but I think we have to look at the numbers more carefully see to how far this style of game is really reaching the people.

12-11-2002, 09:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
MooglePorn Actor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA	1. The only people who bitch about Nintendo being too kiddy are those who have had it beaten into their skulls that that is the truth. Same as a movie with negative buzz, no one has seen it, but everyone talks about how bad it is. 2. Seamus Blackley should shut the fuck up about Miyamoto, who has made so much more of a contribution to the game industry it makes Blackley look like a pumpkin seed next to the empire state building. 3. Nintendo has Resident Evil, Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime, and many other adult themed games, yet they are still considered kids only because of reason 1. I'm sure all these people who have written EGM or whatever bitching about the GCN being for kids don't own one, probably never played one, and are missing out on some good gaming simply because of stereotypes. People annoy me.

12-11-2002, 10:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
MooglePorn Actor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA	Anyone who can enjoy a Disney movie like Lion King even though it's animation and rated G can like a Mario game even though it's brightly colored and rated G... Sublime, what was too kiddy? Mario may be kid friendly, but it is certainly not adult prohibitive. It's not like Barney or some such thing, it's just G rated. There's really nothing wrong with that, I really don't understand...

12-11-2002, 11:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
MooglePorn Actor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA	I just think it's the stereotype that mainly causes people to say "too kiddy" when it comes to Nintendo... Mario Sunshine is one of (if not the) best 3D platform games out there. Just because it has no cuss words or naughty humor doesn't mean it's only for kids... and who cares if it's cute? So are Moogles for God's sake but that certainly doesn't mean Final Fantasy is for kids... it just baffles me. To say a game is kiddy should mean the gameplay is for kids...

12-12-2002, 02:38 AM	#16 (permalink)
MooglePorn Actor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA	You should be proud...:p

12-12-2002, 03:14 AM	#20 (permalink)
MooglePorn Actor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA	It sounds like they aren't your style of games in the first place though, which is different. As I said, those who play something like Jack & Daxter but not Mario are being silly IMO, those who played Panzer Dragoon Orta but say Starfox (the upcoming shooter one) is kiddy are silly... if you like a style of game, and one game is the best of that style, and you don't play it because it has bright colors, you being a silly silly man...

12-12-2002, 04:52 AM	#21 (permalink)
elwood731 Moderator Emeritus On a mission from God Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Kentucky	Enzian, why put StarFox as the lead? Why make Blinx a cat? You ignore animation? Well, then you missed two of the best films of the year in Lilo and Stitch and Ice Age. Batman: The Animated Series was vastly surperior to any of the films, and I would argue to other super hero films as well. The Simpsons and South Park remain, to me at least, the funniest and wittiest shows on television. If you ignore animation, then you are missing out on a lot. That's your right, don't get me wrong, but I think you're missing a whole lot. MOH is on the GC, and both Civ and Sim City have appeared on Nintendo systems. It kind of reminds me of the people who say Disney should do more adult films, and then no one goes to see Treasure Planet or Atlantis. No one saw Titan AE either, but they will flock to see Ice Age. I am not attacking you, but I personally don't see the logic of people who make this criticism. Nintendo makes Eternal Darkness? Others make BMX XXX? Which is more of a mature/adult game? Nintendo makes Metroid Prime? Others make naked volleyball games? Which is more mature or adult? Metroid seems very mature, while the other seems juvenille to me. Eternal Darkness is the most adult game I have ever played on a console, to be honest. Enzian you sound like you're more into PC games, actually. In which case, it doesn't matter which console you own, because the types of games you listed simply aren't on them. But still, the argument confuses me. People hate the new style of Zelda, yet it is done in an anime style which is very popular with adults in Japan, and some in the US. It's all public perception, rather than what is actually there. __________________ "Stupid people surround themselves with smart people. Smart people surround themselves with smart people who disagree with them." - Sports Night "You may not be a maniac, but neither should to remain an impotent!" - Damian

12-12-2002, 05:19 AM	#22 (permalink)
Enzian Producer/Admin Emeritus Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Fort Phoenix	I liked Lilo and Stitch very much. Ice Age was a "take it or leave it" movie. Meh. If it weren't for my son, I wouldn't have seen them. That's right. I would never have gone. Would've been my loss. Yep. Them's the breaks. Right now, I'm looking to buy a console. I'm in the market and my dollars are being bid for. I look at the titles for the GC at EB. All I see are cartoons staring back at me. And Resident Evil. A couple Star Wars titles. That is my "impression". Correct or not, that is my impression. Cartoons do not appeal to me. The quality of games means nothing if I don't have that attraction. "Good personality" means nothing if the looks are hideous. I'll never buy her a drink. So to speak, of course. That leaves me with XBox or PS2. Hmm. I don't have a PSX, so the backwards compatibility means nothing to me. And, based on my impression, I think the XBox will walk with my money. Live! only accepts broadband conex - good. Games look interesting. Halo, MechAssault - these games drink for free in my world. Heh. __________________ Ficht nicht mit Der Raketemensch! XBox Gamertag: Enzian 00001 Elitism is ok, so long as you keep it in your pants...or something like that.

12-12-2002, 07:36 AM	#23 (permalink)
hamholio Actor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Iowa.	Enzian must be a Republican, nothing else is that cold.

12-12-2002, 04:01 PM	#24 (permalink)
Enzian Producer/Admin Emeritus Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Fort Phoenix	Don't even get me started, Hamholio. __________________ Ficht nicht mit Der Raketemensch! XBox Gamertag: Enzian 00001 Elitism is ok, so long as you keep it in your pants...or something like that.

12-12-2002, 04:35 PM	#25 (permalink)
Ispep Aloc Actor Join Date: Nov 2001	If the Gamecube only has kiddie games, why did Sony censor BMX XXX and Nintendo allow for the uncensored version? Consoles are what people make of them. Yes, Nintendo has a reputation for putting out more games more suited for families. Does that make them "kiddie." Here's a list of games that are either out or coming out soon. Guess which systems they belong to. -Metroid Prime -Dead or Alive Beach Vollyball -Outlaw Golf -Outlaw Vollyball -Mario Party 4 -Grand Theft Auto 3 or Vice City -Spyro the Dragon -Sonic Mega Collection -Die Hard Vendetta -Medal of Honor Frontline -Splintered Cell Out of all the Xbox games that are out there, how many of those games are not geared toward everyone and not specifically male or female. Sony clearly has games that are geared for a family audience. Sony has Spyro, Crash, etc. And I understand that some of those games has migrated onto the other systems. Nintendo has Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox and others. When I say Family or Family audience, I mean that they games that are suitable for everyone in the family no matter what age they are. Games could be rated E or T. __________________ Xbox Live Gamertag: Ispep Aloc Wii Friends Code: 4011 0158 8153 1108 PS3 Id: IspepAloc Editor, www.dvdnn.com Last edited by Ispep Aloc : 12-12-2002 at 10:21 PM.