Samsung BD-UP5000 hybrid HD DVD/BD Standalone

[dugpa]

No DTS-MA decoding and no Blu-ray profile 1.1 make this a no deal for me. Otherwise it doesn't look too bad.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Ruined

It should be the same one (Reon). That also means that the BD-UP5000 should eventually be capable of 1080p24 on HD DVD material in addition to 1080p60. My above price was wrong, though. I hear now this player will retail for $800-$900.

Thanks, and that price seems pretty reasonable to me. I'd imagine it'll be less than $600 in no time at all.

Can't wait to see the reviews on it.

[Reaver]

Originally Posted by Ruined

http://www.tvpredictions.com/samsung070507.htm

Looks like $599 or less.

If that price ends up being true, I imagine Samsung won't be able to make enough of those to meet demand. I know I would buy one without hesitation. I have HD-DVD abd BD in my living room, but I need something in my bedroom that also plays both, and that product at that price would be perfect.

[Pirate]

Price drop:

It only seemed like a matter of time before Samsung would lower the MSRP of its upcoming BD-UP5000 Duo HD player to match LG's recently-announced price-cut for their dual format player.

Samsung now says its BD-UP5000 will hit stores sometime in the fourth quarter at a $999 street price -- down $50 from its previously announced MSRP of $1,049.

The price drop is the latest in a series of tit for tat pricing moves between Samsung and LG, who are both marketing dual-format players for the upcoming holiday season.

Samsung made the first move in July, when it announced that its BDP-UP5000 would hit the market priced at $1,049 -- $150 less than LG's BH100 (which had been priced at $1,199 since its launch earlier this year). LG responded in August by announcing its own $200 price drop for the BH100, and now things have come circle with Samsung matching LG's $999 price.

Earlier this week, LG announced a 2nd-Gen dual format player -- the BH200 -- which also carries the $999 pricetag.

Of course, even at $999, all three players remain more expensive than buying two separate standalone players (Toshiba's HD-A2 and Sony's BDP-S300 currently retail at a combined cost of $898), but with the holidays just around the corner, perhaps yet another dual-format player price drop is in our future. Stay tuned...

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...ray_Player/945

[Pirate]

Here's a hands-on with a pre-production model.

http://hdguru.com/?p=184

It looks like this may be the player worth waiting for.

[jriseden]

As long as the reviews are good for this unit, I will probably make this my x-mas present to myself this year.

Imagine me, finally becoming format neutral? :0

[Shadowman82]

I always find it disappointing when a new player misses support or feature already available in current hardware . I would rather pay a bit more than miss features . In other words the lack of dts-ma support for example .

[Shadowman82]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Most BD50 movies are $39.99 retail, especially Fox movies. Most HD30 movies are $29.99 retail. The only HD DVDs that are more than $39.99 in most cases are "combo" titles which have added functionality to a standard BD or HD movie. A few exceptions on HD DVD like King Kong & Babel - or the 2-disc World Trade Center set - but for the most part it holds that HD30 is 24.99-29.99 and BD50 is 34.99-39.99.

And, in retail prices 29.99 movies are generally sold for ~$25 and 39.99 movies are sold for ~$35 in places like Best Buy.



Lets not take things out of context or spread FUD. There are maybe 5 or so movies that have had glitches out of over 100 (unless you have cursed hardware like a certain forum member ). Most of the time, it wasn't the HDi that was causing the bug, it was a glitch in the player itself. And those glitches have been fixed (FW2.1 for HD-A1/XA1, FW1.5 for HD-A2/A20/XA2)



One would have to ask then why there is still a majority preference for HD DVD, or why the attach rate for HD DVD is so much higher than BD.



Right, but if the dual player is what the person buys, then they are buying both formats. If everyone buys both formats, then it goes back to the movie studio - why bother releasing in the format that is more expensive to manufacture if most everyone has both formats?



Cost has actually forced a number of smaller studios to switch to HD DVD. The larger ones you mentioned can absorb the cost of BD, or maybe are even getting some of it subsidized by Sony.



Well, that all depends on whether the BDA studios decide to "unleash" what BD+ is capable of. That hasn't happened yet, but it may be happening with Fox. We'll see what they do with it once the "honeymoon" BD early adopter phase is over.

Further, if someone goes to the store wanting to buy a High Definition DVD for their new player and sees HD DVD or b> as their choice, might not the more obvious and consumer friendly HD DVD name be the option they select - especially when talking about the masses at places like WalMart?


One last thing to consider. From Day One, it has been in HD DVD's "war plan" that the war ending in their favor begins with combo players. From Day One, it has been in Blu-Ray's "war plan" that the war ends in their favor with Blu-Ray dominating. This is based on comments made by BDA and HD DVD boqrd members. BDA members would always say "Blu-Ray alone will stand!" while HD DVD members would say "Both formats will stand." This latest development looks to play more into HD DVD's favor than Blu-Ray's, simply because it ensures HD DVD continues on and BD can't compete with price with HD DVD in the long run.

Most reviewers agree that the best Blu-ray movies look better than the best HD-DVDs .

Blu-ray sells better than HD-DVD , I don't know where you are getting that info from . They sell more hardware and software is also outselling HD-DVD .


I also don't think smaller studios are forced to abandon Blu-ray do to costs . Anchor Bay Entertainment which belongs to Starz is not huge and they are Blu-ray exclusive .

At this point I don't think we can talk about masses yet when it comes to these formats . Sure prices are coming down , but so far both are still niche formats .

I think it's true that both formats will stand , probably for a long time . If anything I don't think combo players will help one format win . It may lead to a similar situation as SA-CD and DVD-A where both co-exist for a long long time .

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

Most reviewers agree that the best Blu-ray movies look better than the best HD-DVDs .

Normally I don't get into format pissing matches, but I can't resist this. I won't argue the other points you made, but this one is nonsense. Please provide sources to back up your statement.
It's a silly thing to say for many reasons anyway. First, they would have to be comparing the exact same film in both formats for it to be a valid, as there are too many factors (film stock, cinematography, etc...) that make different films have different looks. I've seen outstanding quality and crap both from both formats. But since I've only ever seen one film in both formats, I wouldn't presume to claim one looks better than the other. Second, the codec and quality of the encoding comes into play as well. At the end of the day both formats are really just slightly different means of storing data. A Warner VC1 encode on Blu-ray is going to look same as a Warner VC1 encode of the same film on HD-DVD. The only place there could be any difference is in the decoder chips, and that varies by player in both formats. So not only do I doubt the validity of your statement, but even if it were true, it's a dubious distinction.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

I always find it disappointing when a new player misses support or feature already available in current hardware . I would rather pay a bit more than miss features . In other words the lack of dts-ma support for example .

No players support DTS-HDMA decoding at this point. Although I don't see this as a deal breaker because 1.5mbps DTS-HD is perceptually lossless according to DTS. Meaning it sounds no different than DTS-HDMA. On the other hand, I heard some of the DTS-HDMA tracks have been encoded with a 768-960kbps core track and that lower bitrate may not be perceptually lossless - so DTS-HDMA decoding is always welcome. Its also worth mentioning that if you use bitstream output to the player you lose the sound effects in HD DVD menus and other areas, so again optimally DTS-HDMA decoding would be nice - however due to the high quality of DTS-HD and the low number of DTS-HDMA releases (at least on HD DVD), I dont see it as a necessity.

IMO, this Samsung BD-UP5000 may be *the* player to buy this xmas for the HT enthusiast who has the cash for it.

P.S. -- Yeah, dugpa called it. BD has caught up to the video quality of HD DVD but it certainly has not surpassed it.

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Ruined

No players support DTS-HDMA decoding at this point.

The Denon DVD-3800BDCI does.

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by dugpa

The Denon DVD-3800BDCI does.

And when was this released again?

j

[Shadowman82]

Originally Posted by dugpa

Normally I don't get into format pissing matches, but I can't resist this. I won't argue the other points you made, but this one is nonsense. Please provide sources to back up your statement.
It's a silly thing to say for many reasons anyway. First, they would have to be comparing the exact same film in both formats for it to be a valid, as there are too many factors (film stock, cinematography, etc...) that make different films have different looks. I've seen outstanding quality and crap both from both formats. But since I've only ever seen one film in both formats, I wouldn't presume to claim one looks better than the other. Second, the codec and quality of the encoding comes into play as well. At the end of the day both formats are really just slightly different means of storing data. A Warner VC1 encode on Blu-ray is going to look same as a Warner VC1 encode of the same film on HD-DVD. The only place there could be any difference is in the decoder chips, and that varies by player in both formats. So not only do I doubt the validity of your statement, but even if it were true, it's a dubious distinction.

It is indeed rare for one format to look better than the other when both use the same compression codecs but sometimes it does and when it does it's usually the Blu-ray , probably because that one has a bit more storage space to work with . For example this little excerpt from Secrets of Home Theatre review of the two versions of Disturbia suggests as much "The Blu-ray seems to be a tad sharper at times" . With HD-DVD it only ever seems to look better when Blu-ray has used a less efficient codecs like MPEG-2 .

But yeah when there is a difference it's usually fairly small .

[Shadowman82]

Originally Posted by Ruined

No players support DTS-HDMA decoding at this point. Although I don't see this as a deal breaker because 1.5mbps DTS-HD is perceptually lossless according to DTS. Meaning it sounds no different than DTS-HDMA. On the other hand, I heard some of the DTS-HDMA tracks have been encoded with a 768-960kbps core track and that lower bitrate may not be perceptually lossless - so DTS-HDMA decoding is always welcome. Its also worth mentioning that if you use bitstream output to the player you lose the sound effects in HD DVD menus and other areas, so again optimally DTS-HDMA decoding would be nice - however due to the high quality of DTS-HD and the low number of DTS-HDMA releases (at least on HD DVD), I dont see it as a necessity.

IMO, this Samsung BD-UP5000 may be *the* player to buy this xmas for the HT enthusiast who has the cash for it.

P.S. -- Yeah, dugpa called it. BD has caught up to the video quality of HD DVD but it certainly has not surpassed it.

Does a player need to be able to decode it if one used HDMI 1.3 and a receiver that can decode dts-hdma ? I don't think so but don't a player usually have to kind of support outputting it ? Is the Denon really the only one that can do that or could you for example get dts-hdma if you used this new Samsung and a HDMI 1.3 receiver that can decode dts-hdma ?

As for quality between the formats it's not like your claim of HD-DVD offering better quality is really true , that only ever seems to happen when Blu-ray has used a less efficient codecs like MPEG-2 . As I explained in my other post to dugpa I believe it's rare but sometimes on two format releases where both use the same codecs , sometimes the Blu-ray will have a slight edge .

I'm not really advocating anyway that one should go out and get Blu-ray . I do believe that right now if one can actually win the war Blu-ray is more likely but I'd always recommend to get both formats at this point .

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

And when was this released again?

December.

[Derb]

Interesting discussion.

I avoided this thread cause, well its a Samsung.

Smart move for Sammy to go with HQV instead of DCDi for upscaling. I've tried a Panny & Sammy SD upconverting player in the past which used this chip & both players suffered from bad MBB. The only benefit from getting this player instead of 2 standalones is just that. Space.

You all probably know I have already seen my fare share of the same film on both formats with different codecs. Never have I found an MPEG-2 encode or AVC one look better than a VC-1 but I also have not seen VC-1 best the others as well. Paramount was a prime example sinse all their BD releases were either MPEG-2 or AVC. I picked out random scenes to compare each film & never did the VC-1 blow away the other codecs. If you sit 2 feet from a 100" screen, maybe someone could guide me to these differences they imagine they are seeing. Sarcasm aside, every "same" film I have seen on both formats has basically been a wash.

I agree with some here too that $200 HIGH-DEFINITION player price-points call for some cheapo parts & would not be a very attractive/reliable/trustworthy machine. Maybe DYI players will be available for those who can't wait.

The format war is pretty much dead in my mind. Either these formats co-exist or the alternative, don't exist at all. I'll take a chance & agree with Ruined that HD DVD is more widely accepted than Blu-Ray & it has nothing to do with hatred towards Sony. HD DVD from the get-go has allowed many people who do not have deep pockets to enjoy High-def sooner rather than later. My only fears about BD kicking the bucket is;

How will "long term" costs of replication effect studios support?
What actually is the life expectancy of a BD disc? We already know what HD DVDs life expectancy is.

[Shadowman82]

Again I don't know where this HD-DVD is more widely accepted is coming from , sales figures tell otherwise .

[Shadowman82]

I should add however that one more move similar to the Paramount/Dreamworks move could really influence the format war alot . Let's say if an exclusive studio of either one would go neutral or if a neutral studio , probably most of all WB suddenly went exclusive .

[Shadowman82]

I came across this interesting info posted by Secrets of Home Theatre's Administration .


"Here is a table of bitrate comparisons between Blu-ray and HD DVD formats. Were you all familiar with this, or is some of it a surprise? There seems to be a lot more to the two formats than just the fact that Blu-ray has more capacity. I am surprised that Sony/Philips does not mention this in their promos. The maximum bitrate for Blu-ray is 40 Mbps, yet typical Blu-ray movie discs only use 18 Mbps, as does HD DVD, which maxes out at 29 Mbps. I wonder if the players can't handle 30 or 40 Mbps right now. Look at the difference in the audio bitrates between the two formats. Looks like there is a lot of room for even better audio and video coming down the road. Also, what are our readers' experiences with HD DVD and Blu-ray players and discs up to this point? For me, both HD DVD and Blu-ray movies are so wonderful, I can't stand to watch regular DVDs anymore. "

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

I wonder if the players can't handle 30 or 40 Mbps right now.

My BDP-S1 goes to 40 just fine. I've seen the bitrate counter hit well into the mid 30's on some of Sony's mpeg2 BD50 discs.

Look at the difference in the audio bitrates between the two formats. Looks like there is a lot of room for even better audio and video coming down the road.

How can you have audio better than lossless? It doesn't matter what bitrate it's at, lossless is lossless.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by dugpa

How can you have audio better than lossless? It doesn't matter what bitrate it's at, lossless is lossless.

What about the video side?

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

"The maximum bitrate for Blu-ray is 40 Mbps, yet typical Blu-ray movie discs only use 18 Mbps"

Average VBR is easily beyond 18mbps. Also I've seen BDs bitrate spike at 48mbps so this info isn't true. HD DVDs can easily handle up to 33-36mbps last I checked.

[Shadowman82]

Maybe this was posted a while ago I don't know . In any case you guys are right in that Audio can not get any better than lossless and as far as Videoquality goes I don't think there is anything wrong with the Videoquality of well done releases on either format .

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

Audio can not get any better than lossless

It also depends on what kind of processing chips you have. You have a crappy decoding chips, you get crappy audio.

and as far as Videoquality goes I don't think there is anything wrong with the Videoquality of well done releases on either format .

I think I can agreee with this.

j

[Pirate]

Sigh. I'm never getting a BD player.

Report: Samsung Cancels BDP-2400 Blu-ray Player, Delays BD-UP5000 Dual-Format Player

Although they were among the most eagerly anticipated of the season, it seems two of Samsung's previously-announced next-gen players will not hit store shelves later this month as originally planned.

WesleyTech.com first broke the news late Friday that Samsung had cancelled its higher-end BDP-2400 Blu-ray Player. Later, it was revealed that the manufactuer would also delay the launch of its dual-format HD DVD/Blu-ray player, the BD-UP5000.

Both players had originally been expected to hit store shelves before November 1st.

As announced by Samsung back in July, the BDP-2400 was set to be a slightly higher-end cousin to the just-released BDP-1400, including all of the later player's features, plus Samsung's proprietary de-interlacing technology.

The dual format BD-UP5000 player is now expected to hit store shelves sometime in December.

As we've previously reported, Samsung will be the second manufacturer to market an dual player capable of playing HD DVD and Blu-ray discs, following the introduction of LG's BH100 in January of this year. LG plans to release its own new dual-format player (the BH200) later this month.

There's no official word yet from Samsung (nor any explanation for the apparent change in plans), but retailers are corroborating WesleyTech's report.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...at_Player/1020