Obi: PS3's VC-1 decoder not as good as Toshiba's

[Ruined]

According to longtime reviewer Robert George/Obi from HTF/Digital Eyes/etc

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...93&postcount=8

Blood Diamond HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - same exact VC-1 stream stored on both the HD DVD and BD versions. However, on the PS3 there is significantly more artifacting than on the Toshiba.

My guess is that the PS3 is failing to implement the VC-1 post-processing code which knocks out the types of artifacts he saw on his Playstation 3. I believe that the first version of WinDVD that supported HD/BD had this same limitation.

[videoworx]

Well, another reason for studios to use AVC.

[Derb]

Oh geez.

Honestly, how much false garbage can be thrown about BD, PS3 etc etc?

I own identical VC-1 encoded discs for both formats & the PS3 displays the stream like any other Toshiba player.

Keep trying Ruined.

[dugpa]

I do recall Amirm saying that blu-ray didn't impliment vc1 100% correctly in the format itself and thus there's a conversion of some sorts they had to come up with to make the vc1 encode done for hd-dvd compatible with blu-ray. But I don't think it had anything to do with artifacting, I think it was something to do with flags for something or another.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Oh geez.

Honestly, how much false garbage can be thrown about BD, PS3 etc etc?

I own identical VC-1 encoded discs for both formats & the PS3 displays the stream like any other Toshiba player.

Keep trying Ruined.

Are you claiming Robert George/Obi is lying, or were you just taking a shot at me?

Originally Posted by Robert George/Obi

Lo and behold, the excessive blocking I saw on the Blu-ray was nearly gone. I had to back up and look twice again just to see any blocking at all. While very close overall, the HD DVD played on the XA2 looks slightly smoother and cleaner while maintaining the same level of sharpness and detail as the Blu-ray disc played on the PS3.

I know these both these are the same transfer and same VC-1 encode, so I can only assume that all VC-1 decoders and players are not created equal.

Note also with "Superman Returns" I believe the same phenomenon occured based on forum chatter.

[ganthc]

I don't think it's a matter of him lying, as maybe him being wrong or biased perhaps. No one says you are lying when you say that hd-dvd is going to win the war, but I think it's safe to say that you are wrong.

I love this part:

the HD DVD played on the XA2 looks slightly smoother and cleaner while maintaining the same level of sharpness and detail as the Blu-ray disc played on the PS3.

and how you interpret that to mean that vc-1 on the ps3 sucks. It's the "SLIGHTLY" smoother and cleaner part that belies the "not as good" part. It seems that you are overplaying the situation here, and maybe that's why Derb reacting like he did.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

and how you interpret that to mean that vc-1 on the ps3 sucks. It's the "SLIGHTLY" smoother and cleaner part that belies the "not as good" part. It seems that you are overplaying the situation here, and maybe that's why Derb reacting like he did.

Please quote where I posted that the "VC-1 on the PS3 sucks." That is your statement, not mine.

Instead of pulling his quotes out of context by partially quoting him, lets see what Robert George said in full:

Originally Posted by Robert George/Obi

Lo and behold, the excessive blocking I saw on the Blu-ray was nearly gone. I had to back up and look twice again just to see any blocking at all. While very close overall, the HD DVD played on the XA2 looks slightly smoother and cleaner while maintaining the same level of sharpness and detail as the Blu-ray disc played on the PS3.

I know these both these are the same transfer and same VC-1 encode, so I can only assume that all VC-1 decoders and players are not created equal.

As I've stated, that means exactly what I posted - the PS3 VC-1 decoder is not as good as the Toshiba's as per Obi.

[videoworx]

Well, it could also be the TV he's using.



Or eye fatigue.

[ganthc]

Fine, then I will see what kind of credit I should give Robert George (Obi) to see whether he has bias or not. Much like I take your advice on hd-dvd versus blu-ray with a grain of salt, I should always analyze those you place as "experts." From reading other posts on htf that Obi has made, it's obvious to me that he has a huge bias for hd-dvd, or at least against Sony.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=259017

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...=258363&page=2

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=258113

I could go on and on with the biased posts he's made. Maybe I'll sign up to that forum, just so I can refer to him as Ruined George.

[Taxi]

My experiences with Obi in the past have been far from favorable, so personally, I'd be cautious about taking his advice without a little follow up...

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Fine, then I will see what kind of credit I should give Robert George (Obi) to see whether he has bias or not. Much like I take your advice on hd-dvd versus blu-ray with a grain of salt, I should always analyze those you place as "experts." From reading other posts on htf that Obi has made, it's obvious to me that he has a huge bias for hd-dvd, or at least against Sony.

Thanks for posting those links, ganthc. I don't think Robert George has been any more "extreme" of his support of HD DVD as any other Blu-Ray supporter has been in their support of Blu-Ray.

This isn't the first time a "recognized name" has supported something most enthusiasts were against. Stacey Spears, a HIGHLY respected "name", feels dts audio on DVD releases is "redundant" and simply "not necessary" (para-phrasing, of course) and his opinion is shared with others considered to be "experts". Of course we all know dts is popular among "enthusiasts" like us.

Sometimes I think people on BOTH sides of this war get too sensitive when their format appears to be "attacked". If there is an issue with the PS3's VC-1 decoder, I don't think that should be of any surprise to people since the PS3 isn't a dedicated Blu-Ray movie player. If there isn't an issue with the PS3's VC-1 decoder, there is nothing for PS3 owners to be concerned about. One of the PS3's roles was to be a Blu-Ray movie player and when the PS3 came out it was among the better of the Blu-Ray player options, if not the best. The PS3 wasn't intended to be the BEST Blu-Ray player ever made so I'm not sure why PS3 fans here are reacting the way they are.

Peace...

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Thanks for posting those links, ganthc. I don't think Robert George has been any more "extreme" of his support of HD DVD as any other Blu-Ray supporter has been in their support of Blu-Ray.

This isn't the first time a "recognized name" has supported something most enthusiasts were against. Stacey Spears, a HIGHLY respected "name", feels dts audio on DVD releases is "redundant" and simply "not necessary" (para-phrasing, of course) and his opinion is shared with others considered to be "experts". Of course we all know dts is popular among "enthusiasts" like us.

Sometimes I think people on BOTH sides of this war get too sensitive when their format appears to be "attacked". If there is an issue with the PS3's VC-1 decoder, I don't think that should be of any surprise to people since the PS3 isn't a dedicated Blu-Ray movie player. If there isn't an issue with the PS3's VC-1 decoder, there is nothing for PS3 owners to be concerned about. One of the PS3's roles was to be a Blu-Ray movie player and when the PS3 came out it was among the better of the Blu-Ray player options, if not the best. The PS3 wasn't intended to be the BEST Blu-Ray player ever made so I'm not sure why PS3 fans here are reacting the way they are.

Peace...

Yes, but bd supporters are not touted as "experts", as hd-dvd supporters are to further what has been an agenda to bash ps3 and blu-ray in general. I still refuse to treat threads as vaccuums without reference to previous postings and threads. It gives context in my opinion, and one that highlights what the true intention of the poster is.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yes, but bd supporters are not touted as "experts" to further what has been an agenda to bash ps3 and blu-ray in general. I still refuse to treat threads as vaccuums without reference to previous postings and threads. It gives context in my opinion, and one that highlights what the true intention of the poster is.

Obi has been in the game a long time and has reviewed for many sites in the past, most recently Home Theater Forum but previous to that digitaleyes.net (now dvdplanet) and before that SMR Home Theater which is now defunct AFAIK. Before even standard DVD, IIRC.

He is quoted as an "expert" because he has been a visible name in the field, evaluating titles for quite some time. I used to fight with him over DD/DTS back in the day

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yes, but bd supporters are not touted as "experts", as hd-dvd supporters are to further what has been an agenda to bash ps3 and blu-ray in general.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying more "experts" are vocal in favor of HD DVD than of Blu-Ray or more people who support HD DVD are claiming to be "experts"? I wouldn't necessarily consider Robert George to be an "expert" (at least not like how Stacey Spears is generally regarded) but he's definitely a "recognized name" in HT cyberspace.

Furthermore, pointing out "issues" isn't necessarily "bashing", even though it can be at times. Of course, this happens on both sides. In fact, the first thread you linked to above illustrates this.

I still refuse to treat threads as vaccuums without reference to previous postings and threads. It gives context in my opinion, and one that highlights what the true intention of the poster is.

I agree threads shouldn't be treated as vacuums but in the case of Robert George, the threads you posted above didn't really prove your "case". I could make the same statements about you, and back them in the same manner as you have above, and make a case for you being a "HD DVD basher" as you are about Robert George being against Blu-Ray.

I do agree with you that we all need to be careful about what we read and from whom and we all do a disservice to everyone when basing points or positions on questionable sources. In this particular case, Robert George could be wrong. The Secrets guys might run some VC-1 tests on the PS3 and prove him right. We simply don't know and really can't (or shouldn't) jump to ANY conclusions on EITHER side of this issue.

How would you guys feel if Robert George was proven right on this one point? (The point about the VC-1 decoder)

Peace...

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying more "experts" are vocal in favor of HD DVD than of Blu-Ray or more people who support HD DVD are claiming to be "experts"? I wouldn't necessarily consider Robert George to be an "expert" (at least not like how Stacey Spears is generally regarded) but he's definitely a "recognized name" in HT cyberspace.

Furthermore, pointing out "issues" isn't necessarily "bashing", even though it can be at times. Of course, this happens on both sides. In fact, the first thread you linked to above illustrates this.

No, I am saying that I don't quote [insert name] and say that he says such and such is better than hd-dvd, and then make a thread about him giving his opinion on bd and treat it as expert opinion. Whether he is well known or not doesn't matter. The fact that he has bias calls his critiques into question, in my book.

And I would say that the "bashing" statement wasn't necessarily applied to this thread. This is just one amongst many that are in a littany of threads put out to bash the ps3 and blu-ray. See my vacuum statements to see why I said that. It certainly didn't stop Obi from bashing Sony in the second link I posted.

I agree threads shouldn't be treated as vacuums but in the case of Robert George, the threads you posted above didn't really prove your "case". I could make the same statements about you, and back them in the same manner as you have above, and make a case for you being a "HD DVD basher" as you are about Robert George being against Blu-Ray.

The case wasn't necessarily about Obi as it was about Ruined, and the context with which he posts these threads. It's quite obvious to many that he unapologetically favors hd-dvd. But there may be some on this forum that just peruse the threads and might not know this. Bringing such context can highlight to that reader what motivations Ruined might have, or also might bring to light biases that Obi has. It's not just in the hd forum, but also in the video game forums.

As far as trying to make me out to be an hd-dvd basher, you might be hard pressed to do so from an audio/video standpoint. I have not (to my recollection) ever bashed hd-dvd for its a/v with regards to blu-ray. I have pointed out where they have gotten subpar reviews from highdefdigest. I have stated that I think bd will win the war based on marketing and studio support. I have stated that I like the audio better on bd because of lossless versus lossy. And I have been a bd supporter if only to act as a counterweight to Ruined and others that support hd-dvd and have made it clear where their biases are. I have had criticisms on the marketing tactics of Toshiba and hd-dvd, and have even recommended ways they could turn things around. None of this compares to the unending assault on the ps3 and bd.

I do agree with you that we all need to be careful about what we read and from whom and we all do a disservice to everyone when basing points or positions on questionable sources. In this particular case, Robert George could be wrong. The Secrets guys might run some VC-1 tests on the PS3 and prove him right. We simply don't know and really can't (or shouldn't) jump to ANY conclusions on EITHER side of this issue.

How would you guys feel if Robert George was proven right on this one point? (The point about the VC-1 decoder)

Peace...

If Obi is right, then I imagine that it can be fixed by a patch, just like the other issues that have been hurled at the ps3.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by ganthc

No, I am saying that I don't quote [insert name] and say that he says such and such is better than hd-dvd, and then make a thread about him giving his opinion on bd and treat it as expert opinion. Whether he is well known or not doesn't matter. The fact that he has bias calls his critiques into question, in my book.

Ok, that's cool but that's not what you posted above.

And I would say that the "bashing" statement wasn't necessarily applied to this thread. This is just one amongst many that are in a littany of threads put out to bash the ps3 and blu-ray. See my vacuum statements to see why I said that. It certainly didn't stop Obi from bashing Sony in the second link I posted.

Ok. I guess it's reasonable to expect some level of parity between the numbers of anti-Blu-Ray and anti-HD DVD threads floating around.

The case wasn't necessarily about Obi as it was about Ruined, and the context with which he posts these threads. It's quite obvious to many that he unapologetically favors hd-dvd. But there may be some on this forum that just peruse the threads and might not know this. Bringing such context can highlight to that reader what motivations Ruined might have, or also might bring to light biases that Obi has. It's not just in the hd forum, but also in the video game forums.

That's cool and I fully support your overall premise. In fact, I've raised this very idea a few years ago on this very forum. I don't know if Ruined was mentioned specifically or if my comments were more broad. We ALL need to be far more careful about what we post on forums like to so they can best serve the readers of the forum.

As far as trying to make me out to be an hd-dvd basher, you might be hard pressed to do so from an audio/video standpoint. I have not (to my recollection) ever bashed hd-dvd for its a/v with regards to blu-ray. I have pointed out where they have gotten subpar reviews from highdefdigest. I have stated that I think bd will win the war based on marketing and studio support. I have stated that I like the audio better on bd because of lossless versus lossy. And I have been a bd supporter if only to act as a counterweight to Ruined and others that support hd-dvd and have made it clear where their biases are. I have had criticisms on the marketing tactics of Toshiba and hd-dvd, and have even recommended ways they could turn things around. None of this compares to the unending assault on the ps3 and bd.

Come on now, you're trying to make your posting behavior seem not as "bad" as it arguably has been about HD DVD. Now, I'm not saying you've been posting in the same manner as Ruined but you've been almost as relentless, which is precisely why you must qualify your comment above. I wouldn't consider you a HD DVD "basher" just as I wouldn't consider Robert George a Blu-Ray "basher". As for being a "counterweight" to Ruined, that implies you're seeking to match his tactics in the interest of balancing things out. If this truly is your belief, then you're basically calling yourself a "basher", where I would not call you one.

I consider you, and others, to simply be enthusiastic about this technology and are anxious to see how things will play out. There's nothing wrong with that.

If Obi is right, then I imagine that it can be fixed by a patch, just like the other issues that have been hurled at the ps3.

That's NOT what I meant. I meant, how would you (and others) feel about Obi if he were proven to be right? Would you recant your comments about him above?

Peace...

[Derb]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

The PS3 wasn't intended to be the BEST Blu-Ray player ever made so I'm not sure why PS3 fans here are reacting the way they are.

Peace...

According to Mr. Hunt's Sony contacts, more time was spent on making the PS3 the best first-gen BD player over any other released prior. Sinse it played back titles which some other standalones couldn't do (pre-firmware), I tend to agree.

My bet is Robert George has his display calibrated different for both HD DVD & BD.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by Derb

According to Mr. Hunt's Sony contacts, more time was spent on making the PS3 the best first-gen BD player over any other released prior. Sinse it played back titles which some other standalones couldn't do (pre-firmware), I tend to agree.

That would mean the PS3 would support features that I'm not sure it does (like analog 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs for PCM audio output, etc) and the 480p/1080i issue it had wouldn't be there. Lastly, Sony spending time to make the PS3 "the best 1st gen player" doesn't mean they succeeded. The ability to simply play back titles is just one factor.

Peace...

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Come on now, you're trying to make your posting behavior seem not as "bad" as it arguably has been about HD DVD. Now, I'm not saying you've been posting in the same manner as Ruined but you've been almost as relentless, which is precisely why you must qualify your comment above. I wouldn't consider you a HD DVD "basher" just as I wouldn't consider Robert George a Blu-Ray "basher". As for being a "counterweight" to Ruined, that implies you're seeking to match his tactics in the interest of balancing things out. If this truly is your belief, then you're basically calling yourself a "basher", where I would not call you one.

I consider you, and others, to simply be enthusiastic about this technology and are anxious to see how things will play out. There's nothing wrong with that.

But that is to assume I have an agenda in the hd wars. I don't insomuchas I don't have some vested interest in who wins. The reason I say that my posts are not as bad is because I don't start threads with the intention of bashing the opposing format. The counterweight is to balance what is almost an hd-dvd preference on this forum, at least from the outspoken forum members. I know Iggy has wished there was more said from the bd side, but we don't feel the need to trash hd-dvd in order for us to say that bd is great. When bd or the ps3 is being denigrated, I won't just let it go unchallenged. I've stated this before. But my agenda is not to see the destruction of hd-dvd, unlike some on this forum in regard to bd/Sony.

There is a difference between being "anxious to find how things play out" and another to be a propaganda voice for one format that bashes another. Maybe you don't see the difference.

That's NOT what I meant. I meant, how would you (and others) feel about Obi if he were proven to be right? Would you recant your comments about him above?

Peace...

Well, Ruined doesn't say things that aren't later proven to be true. My opinion of him as biased remains the same. Ditto for Obi.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

How would you guys feel if Robert George was proven right on this one point? (The point about the VC-1 decoder)

Peace...

Is it my turn yet?

I would feel it's another point to look at regarding the new formats.

It's not like whatever anyone says online is Gospel folks. Believing that is silly in my opinion. It's all a big pot of goodness to simmer over. If "A" is proven true or false, so be it. That to me is one more ingredient to digest. Plain and simple.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

That would mean the PS3 would support features that I'm not sure it does (like analog 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs for PCM audio output, etc) and the 480p/1080i issue it had wouldn't be there. Lastly, Sony spending time to make the PS3 "the best 1st gen player" doesn't mean they succeeded. The ability to simply play back titles is just one factor.

Peace...

Only thing audio wise the PS3 doesn't support is dts-MA
The PS3 can decode TrueHD to PCM & both LPCM & TrueHD support 7.1. No analog connections though.
The 480p/1080i issue wasn't an issue for movies, just games.

[plissken99]

I've only brushed over this thread, too much arguing.

But one thing I find frustrating about news like this... A fault of both formats is that there isn't one unified standard like with DVD. So now when we buy players in the future, we have to be paranoid if we're getting a player that can decode all the formats well, or will we have to buy seperate players for the best of VC-1 and AVC! The thought of this annoys me a great deal.