BDA disabling BD-R/RE playback in newer standalones to curb piracy?

[Ruined]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=886153
http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=25294
http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=23713

Appears this may be the case. If this trend continues...

[dugpa]

This is unconfirmed so far of course. But if it does pan out, I'm glad I have my BDP-S1 that plays them. Of course, Sony could always disable it in a future firmware update, just as they enabled it with one.
Here I was just thinking of getting a Sony Viao with a Blu-ray burner so I could make my own discs to play. If Sony's going to play these games, guess they just lost a laptop sale.

[Derb]

Thats all second party BD-R/BD-RE discs are for.

Piracy

[Ruined]

This has now been confirmed by an Intel insider and a Sony insider on AVSFORUM agreed with him. The first few BD players apparently supported BD-R to assist with getting content working but newer players no longer support it because it is no longer necessary.

For these new players, the only BDMV-authored blanks that will play are AACS-approved blanks which do not exist at this point in time. Probably will have some limitations on your burner and the content being burned if you insert said type of blank into your BD-R drive.

So, in short, small content providers who produce on BD-R are BD-screwed for now.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Thats all second party BD-R/BD-RE discs are for.

Piracy

What about people that want to produce hidef discs on a small scale for things like Weddings, High School Sports, etc? Or if you want to backup a movie you own? Out of luck on Blu-Ray it looks like.

Another reason to support HD DVD! Open recordable format, and one that does not treat the disc buyer like a criminal.

Here is the official word from Sony:

Originally Posted by paidgeek, Sony Employee/Insider

Blu-ray players were never supposed to support BDMV authored content using ordinary data type BD-R or BD-RE media. An exemption was made for a number of months so that available blank discs could be used for testing and other promotional activities; this exemption expired recently...

...The players were not permitted to play movie content from the current blank media to begin with. There was an exception made for a short period of time to help facilitate testing and demonstrations. This issues has been given consideration since before the launch of the format. The fundamental issue is easy to understand. The studios cannot accept the use of blank media for making clones of copyrighted discs. The computer industry wants to empower consumers to fully utilize the format and that is fine, so long as measures are taken to protect copyright...

Lord knows what will happen if BD wins!

[videoworx]

That's not an official word from Sony.

I authored my first BD disc this week, using Adobe Encore CS 3 (which doesn't support HD-DVD authoring or encoding). Encore is based on Sonic's BD authoring application. The BD disc has a menu, albeit a simple motion menu, no different than what you could author to a DVD. This is all I need, as the client hasn't requested PiP, or any BD-J specific content. There's a learning curve, but that has more to do with what Blu-Ray allows, when it comes to resolution and frame rates.

It played in a BDP-S1, the Panasonic (not sure if it was the pre or post firmware model), and a Samsung 1200. It did NOT play in one PS3, but did in another.

To be honest, I had less problems with BD playback compatibility than I did with DVD-Rs when I first started authoring those. As for replication, there are 2 facilities within 70 miles of my office that can make the 50 copies I need.

In other words, as a video producer, this alarming event hasn't affected me at all. Encore can't author BD-J content, and I'm not in need of a AACS license yet (which will cost about $1900-2400).

[Ruined]

The disabling of BD-R playback is part of Blu-Ray profile 1.1 - all of the players you listed are profile 1.0. The BDP-S300 is one of the first where your BD-Rs will fail to work properly, and all players released after Oct 31st 2007 will not play standard BD-Rs authored in BDMV. And, even if you bought an expensive AACS license you'd be record your content for playback because AACS blanks do not exist yet.

In other words, by the end of this year producers of homemade content on Blu-Ray will be screwed. And, paidgeek is very much official word from Sony - he is an insider that represents Sony on AVSFORUM much like Amir is an insider that represents Microsoft on AVSFORUM.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

What about people that want to produce hidef discs on a small scale for things like Weddings, High School Sports, etc? Or if you want to backup a movie you own? Out of luck on Blu-Ray it looks like.

Another reason to support HD DVD! Open recordable format, and one that does not treat the disc buyer like a criminal.

Here is the official word from Sony:


Lord knows what will happen if BD wins!

According to AVS thread, it's only BDMV that is restricted, and that the small scale stuff you mentioned above can be done in BDAV and still be allowed. Making backups of the movies you own? Well, that might not be possible.

Also, it's worth noting that this AVS guy that's propagating the thread is the same guy that spread the bd disc rot issue. And Ruined complains about FUD. HA!!

From Blu-ray insider:

BD-R/-RE clarification

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, all,

I've received permission to relay information I received from a CE vendor contact. Some of this slightly contradicts what might be interpreted from what paidgeek has posted; hopefully he'll be able to check with his sources and either confirm what I've posted or either of us will correct as required.

Most current Blu-ray players were shipped with "grace period" support where they weren't required to fully implement AACS on BD-R/-RE discs. In practice what this means on these players is that a BD-R/-RE disc authored with AACS copy protection will not play, while BD-R/-RE discs without AACS copy protection are permitted to play.

Now that the grace period is over players must either fully support AACS from BD-R/-RE, or they may not support BDMV from BD-R/-RE at all. If a player does support AACS from BD-R/-RE it may also support BDMV from non-AACS BD-R/-RE (just as many current players do). Therefore once AACS is fully supported from BD-R/-RE on a given player, the situation will be no different than it is today. Bear in mind that BD-R/-RE support is not required on a Blu-ray Disc player (just as DVD(+/-)R/RW support isn't required on a DVD player). However, I expect most future players will fully support BDMV from BD-R/-RE (with or without AACS). My contact says a firmware upgrade to the players recently released without BDMV BD-R/-RE support is technically possible, but hasn't yet been committed to.

Based on this explanation, I don't believe there is any change in BD-R/-RE media whatsoever, but that this is purely a firmware-related issue. I also don't believe there's an obligation to firmware update players released during the grace period to remove the ability to playback BDMV from BD-R/-RE, but I'm trying to confirm this.

Hope this helps clarify things.

- Talk

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post11242220

"Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
If the AACS BD-R spec was finalised July 28th, 2006, why are there still no AACS BD-R discs on the market. "

Based on my information there are no AACS BD-R discs.

"Quote:
Could the fact that HD DVD does NOT require AACS protection on Users' self-recorded home movies represent a distinct advantage to the HD DVD format."

Blu-ray does not require AACS protection on users' home movies. It requires players to support AACS on BD-R/-RE if it is present.

"Quote:
Could the fact that Bluray *does require* AACS on test BD-ROMs produced by the studios be considered a disadvantage to the BD format?"

If you're a major studio you may well consider the AACS requirement on BD-ROM an advantage, as it makes it much more difficult to produce pirate BD-ROM copies of a movie. To the extent this keeps studios in the Blu-ray camp, this is to the advantage of the consumer. If you're a studio with no interest in protecting your content via AACS, this requirement may be perceived as a (minor) disadvantage, as it increases production costs (but only trivially for any reasonably-sized production run).

"Quote:
Am I correct in my interpretation that any BDMV content burned to a DVD-9 red laser disc for playback on Bluray players will ALSO require AACS protection, or a special AACS-approved disc? Or is this down to the interpretation of the manufacturer?"

There is no requirement for BDMV content burned to recordable media to have AACS protection. The only requirement is that (new) players which support BD-R/-RE BDMV media must support AACS as well.

"Quote:
If AACS is mandatory for BDMV content on BD-R/RE discs, then HOW can a player "either support AACS, or not support AACS"?"

AACS is not mandatory for BD-R/-RE BDMV content. What's mandatory is if the player supports BDMV from BD-R/-RE, it must fully support AACS if present on that content.

- Talk

[dugpa]

Well, I'm glad we cleared all that up!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by dugpa

Well, I'm glad we cleared all that up!

Note that TalkStr8 is the Blu-Ray insider that said as an insider he knew that Samsung releasing a dual-format player was total BS and a laughable rumor literally the day before the official BD-UP5000 announcement (and far after the initial magazine scan of the BD-UP5000). He seems to be the official BD FUD spreader - paidgeek's input has been more accurate and less blusterous.

[MooglePorn]

Someone clear this tech speak up for me...

I burn some stuff with no license or DRM on it to a BD and it plays fine... I burn some stuff with this protection on it, like copying a movie off a BD to another BD, and it does not play?

Because I would be fine with that.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by MooglePorn

Someone clear this tech speak up for me...

I burn some stuff with no license or DRM on it to a BD and it plays fine... I burn some stuff with this protection on it, like copying a movie off a BD to another BD, and it does not play?

Because I would be fine with that.

According to the blu-ray insider, if you burn something without AACS protection to a bd-r, it will play on players capable of playing bd-r. If you try to burn a AACS protected content on to a bd-r that has no AACS protection on it and try to play that, it won't play.

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by ganthc

According to the blu-ray insider, if you burn something without AACS protection to a bd-r, it will play on players capable of playing bd-r. If you try to burn a AACS protected content on to a bd-r that has no AACS protection on it and try to play that, it won't play.

That, but also I think part of what they're trying to say is that manufacturers are choosing not to include bd-r playback at all in newer players because they don't want the hassle of trying to sort out implimenting the AACS playback issues. Instead of trying to get it so non-AACS ones play fine and ones that have it don't, they are just choosing the easy way to comply by not including BD-r playback at all.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

According to the blu-ray insider, if you burn something without AACS protection to a bd-r, it will play on players capable of playing bd-r. If you try to burn a AACS protected content on to a bd-r that has no AACS protection on it and try to play that, it won't play.

And, on top of that, playback of standard BD-R media authored in BDMV is disabled in profile 1.1. If your quote was all this was, there would be no controversary as everyone knew the content your quote from day 1.

See, you are missing the point (which is likely exactly what Talkstr8 was hoping for). If I take an AACS movie and decrypt it using one of the programs available now for Blu-Ray, it is no longer AACS protected. And therefore, it could be burned and played back in a BD standalone according to your theory.

That is unacceptable to Sony & Fox, the two big DRM-mongering studios. So BDMV playback of non-AACS media has been disabled, period, in newer players & profile 1.1 players. That movie just cracked now WON'T play because all major studio movies are BDMV authored.

Here's the rub. If you have a homemade movie authored in BDMV (meaning, a movie with more complex menus/features than a barebones DVD), you need to purchase an AACS license for $2000 and then distribute it on AACS BD-R media - however expensive THAT will be - to your customers. Otherwise, you are SOL.

So, in the end, small content providers and home video makers get the shaft. The only people that get to tap the full abilities of Blu-Ray are the big studios. Smaller entities will be stuck in "DVD Mode" aka BDAV despite all the features that should be available to them.

As usual, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. And this weak attempt at copy protection will be so easily cracked that the only person remotely hurt by this will be small businesses and the consumer himself. But we already know by virtue of BD+ Advanced Countermeasure, the overpriced players, and the lack of any coherent mandatory hardware standards that in the world of Blu-Ray the consumer doesn't matter. What matters is that the CE manufacturers get to charge as much as possible for as little gear as possible while the studios get to treat you like a criminal as if you stole the movie you just bought with their excessive DRM measures. And the ironic thing is that studios like Fox are the ones charging $40 for catalog releases that you'd be very lucky to find a theatrical trailer on - who's the criminal there? These same studios are now delivering you a recordable format that is less functional than the current DVD+/-R standard. Bait... and switch! Can't wait to see what other future gems are in store in the land of BD DRM.

Par for the course with this format.

[videoworx]

Again, pure speculation on your part, Ruined. As a video producer, this has not affected me at all.

You sound like every DVD naysayer in the late 90s, bitching that DVD-Rs weren't playing on this or that player. In a year, none of this will be an issue. And that's when I'll be getting a lot more calls for Blu-Ray content.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by dugpa

That, but also I think part of what they're trying to say is that manufacturers are choosing not to include bd-r playback at all in newer players because they don't want the hassle of trying to sort out implimenting the AACS playback issues. Instead of trying to get it so non-AACS ones play fine and ones that have it don't, they are just choosing the easy way to comply by not including BD-r playback at all.

Yes, but as in any market, there will be a demand for playing bd-r discs and there will be manufacturers that will build for that demand. Ruined's FUD is that he wants you to think that no bd player will ever, EVER play bd-r discs, and that ones that currently play bd-r's will not be able to in the future. There will be a manufacturer that will want to distinguish their player with this feature. If consumer demand is for this feature, that player will sell like hotcakes. Rather than lose sales for their company, other manufacturers will also allow for the feature, which can likely just be done with a firmware upgrade.

As I said, Ruined rails against FUD, but here he is spreading it like wildfire.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

As I said, Ruined rails against FUD, but here he is spreading it like wildfire.

The source of the "FUD" was Sony as I quoted above:
BDA disabling BD-R/RE playback in newer standalones to curb piracy?

Are you trying to state that you know the situation on BD-R better than an engineer from the primary founding company of the BD spec?

Then again, now that I think about it - maybe it does make sense that it is FUD coming from Sony.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

The source of the "FUD" was Sony as I quoted above:
BDA disabling BD-R/RE playback in newer standalones to curb piracy?

Are you trying to state that you know the situation on BD-R better than an engineer from the primary founding company of the BD spec?

Then again, now that I think about it - maybe it does make sense that it is FUD coming from Sony.

Has paidgeek since responded to what the bd insider said? Could he have misunderstood and gotten it wrong? Why yes he has, after belligerant whining from the hd-dvd fanboy FUD generator (rdjam):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...851221&page=70

First of all, for those who have been waiting for my follow-up post on this topic, thanks for your patience...

After doing some research, here is what I have been able to clarify.

Blu-ray players first manufactured after Spring of this year are required to support BD-RE v3.0 media (AACS enabled) for playback of recordings where copyright has been asserted (e.g. digital broadcast, managed copy from a Blu-ray movie and similar).
These same players may playback authored content from other sources (e.g. home movies) where copyright is not asserted from either BD-RE V3.0 or v2.1 (currently available) media.

An exception was made for players produced before Spring this year such that they may playback authored BD movie content from BD-RE V2.1 media, even though they may not support V3.0 media. The PS3 is already fully compliant with the latest requirements. Other players may or may not be depending on current firmware revisions.

The simple summary is that a consumer can author their own content as they wish using currently available media and play it back on any player that was released prior to Spring 07' as well as any player released since that time, provided that the player can support BD-RE V3.0 media. If a newer player cannot yet support that media type, then BD-RE 2.1 support can be enabled as soon as firmware allows the player to do so.

The specifications are designed not to inconvenience any customer who wants to author content they own.

You can read on to see how Paidgeek and Talk have to respond to rdjam's further bd bashing without facts. Jeez, compared to rdjam, you are a breath of fresh air, Ruined.