Daewoo DBP-1000 Blu-ray Player

[ganthc]

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/08...daewoo_bluray/

I'm curious to see what the price point for this bd player will be. I'm guessing it will shoot for the $250 mark.

[videoworx]

I'm more interested in the new Sony (BDP-S500), which looks like it supports the elusive DTS codec.

[ganthc]

Well, blu-ray will need some sort of response to the cheap Venturer player that will be coming out. I've heard the msrp is going to be $199. That means the player will sell for $150-$170, most likely. A Daewoo player that is bd-j enabled and priced at $250 will help things out.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/08...daewoo_bluray/

I'm curious to see what the price point for this bd player will be. I'm guessing it will shoot for the $250 mark.

Gonna be tough since Blu-Ray players need two lenses to playback DVD and BD or an expensive floating lens - and the lens for BD material is difficult to produce and therefore costly. (HD DVD players comparatively only need one, the same ones mass produced for standard DVD players).

This is where a large amount of the cost difference comes out.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Gonna be tough since Blu-Ray players need two lenses to playback DVD and BD or an expensive floating lens - and the lens for BD material is difficult to produce and therefore costly. (HD DVD players comparatively only need one, the same ones mass produced for standard DVD players).

This is where a large amount of the cost difference comes out.

I know this was true at the start of the war, but does it still hold true now? Hasn't the prices for the parts fallen largely because of the use of bd drives in the ps3?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

I know this was true at the start of the war, but does it still hold true now? Hasn't the prices for the parts fallen largely because of the use of bd drives in the ps3?

The price of blue lasers has fallen dramatically but the manufacturing cost of the lens remains a hurdle - Blu-Ray needs both a 0.60 NA lens and also a 0.85 NA lens in order to focus the laser properly for DVD and Blu-Ray playback respectively; another option is a "floating" lens, but that too is costly. The 0.85 NA lens needs to be very precisely made out of high quality materials in order for BD to work properly due to the density of the data in BD; this cost is compounded by the fact that only BD players use this type of lens.

Meanwhile, HD DVD uses a single 0.60 NA lens for both DVD and HD DVD. It can use the same mass-marketed plastic lens that $50 Walmart DVD players use.

The issue of lens cost will continue to be a thorn in the side of BD when it comes to competing with HD DVD in price. They both use the same laser, so there is no advantage to either there - but Blu-Ray will always need to use two lenses or a more expensive "floating lens" in order to maintain CD/DVD backwards compatibility in the player - resulting in it being more costly than HD DVD for some time to come.

This is simple cost analysis, and a big reason why the HD DVD camp feels they will be able to undercut BD's prices for a long time to come. Toshiba specifically designed HD DVD so that it would take advantage of the current DVD infrastructure - Standard DVD replication lines can make HD DVD, HD DVD uses the same lens as standard DVD, and HD DVD uses the same laser as PS3. Therefore HD DVD has "economy of scale" on all levels from all player parts to actual disc replication. They have a reference design and are basically set for the mass-market; we will see how BDA can respond to the beginnings of this coming in Q4, as they have a long way to go to build up something to compete with the existing infrastructure HD DVD can use for their hardware and software.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

The price of blue lasers has fallen dramatically but the manufacturing cost of the lens remains a hurdle - Blu-Ray needs both a 0.60 NA lens and also a 0.85 NA lens in order to focus the laser properly for DVD and Blu-Ray playback respectively; another option is a "floating" lens, but that too is costly. The 0.85 NA lens needs to be very precisely made out of high quality materials in order for BD to work properly due to the density of the data in BD; this cost is compounded by the fact that only BD players use this type of lens.

Meanwhile, HD DVD uses a single 0.60 NA lens for both DVD and HD DVD. It can use the same mass-marketed plastic lens that $50 Walmart DVD players use.

The issue of lens cost will continue to be a thorn in the side of BD when it comes to competing with HD DVD in price. They both use the same laser, so there is no advantage to either there - but Blu-Ray will always need to use two lenses or a more expensive "floating lens" in order to maintain CD/DVD backwards compatibility in the player - resulting in it being more costly than HD DVD for some time to come.

This is simple cost analysis, and a big reason why the HD DVD camp feels they will be able to undercut BD's prices for a long time to come. Toshiba specifically designed HD DVD so that it would take advantage of the current DVD infrastructure - Standard DVD replication lines can make HD DVD, HD DVD uses the same lens as standard DVD, and HD DVD uses the same laser as PS3. Therefore HD DVD has "economy of scale" on all levels from all player parts to actual disc replication. They have a reference design and are basically set for the mass-market; we will see how BDA can respond to the beginnings of this coming in Q4, as they have a long way to go to build up something to compete with the existing infrastructure HD DVD can use for their hardware and software.

Yes, but blu-ray doesn't really have to be concerned with the .60 lens, because like you said, it's a dime a dozen. The real issue for Sony is to get the .85 lens on an economy of scale. But with 5 million bd players out there, already, how far off is it from achieving that? Especially if they can get China to manufacture the lens. Throwing a 20 million part order at China brings the unit cost down on the lens, which can make the bd players cheaper. You can argue that replication is also cheaper, but the same issue will arise when more replication centers open and prices fall on the cost of replication.

By your estimation, the only thing that should be costing Toshiba any real money is the blue laser, and that now is cheaper. Why haven't Toshiba players dropped even further in price?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yes, but blu-ray doesn't really have to be concerned with the .60 lens, because like you said, it's a dime a dozen. The real issue for Sony is to get the .85 lens on an economy of scale. But with 5 million bd players out there, already, how far off is it from achieving that? Especially if they can get China to manufacture the lens. Throwing a 20 million part order at China brings the unit cost down on the lens, which can make the bd players cheaper. You can argue that replication is also cheaper, but the same issue will arise when more replication centers open and prices fall on the cost of replication.

The problem with the 0.85 NA lens is not only the scale at this point in time, its also the precision required to get it to function properly in the BD environment. The slightest imperfection and you get a defective BD player. The 0.60 NA lens is much more forgiving of imperfections. Its not something that they've figured out how to mass market cheaply, hence the high price.

By your estimation, the only thing that should be costing Toshiba any real money is the blue laser, and that now is cheaper. Why haven't Toshiba players dropped even further in price?

I believe they will come November. Once again, the entire line of HD DVD players were designed with economy of scale/mass market manufacturing in mind.

The HD-A3, HD-A30, and HD-A35 are all essentially the same player. They all have the same motherboard and core chips. The only differences are a few jacks added here or a chip or two added there that earns you some of the functionality differences we see that allow for more features and pricing tiers. But for the core player chips/board, they are all the same. Onkyo's player will be similar to the XA2 in design, so again we have the same core chips being used.

The Venturer player and all of the Chinese players that will be arriving all use the same layout and chips as well. Microsoft and Broadcom made a reference design which essentially was an DIY kit on how to make an HD DVD player - they tell you what you need, how to assemble it, and how to make it all work. I actually would not be surprised if the Venturer and HD-A3 were very similar internally. It may simply boil down to whether you're comfortable buying a noname brand or not for a piece of CE gear, because the HD DVD gameplan involves all players being essentially the same exact thing with a few addons tacked on here or there for enhanced functionality. That allows economy of scale, easier HDi testing, and reference firmware updates across the board. Though BD has done a great job of marketing, in the mass-marketing area they haven't even approached where HD DVD was Jan. of this year.