Toshiba is back on top! Look! They said so themself!

[rixrex]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Dude, are you even reading what you wrote above. Your quote above in bold has what, DVD artifacting in it. How can you say you didn't write "DVD artifacting" when your own quote, quoted by you, has those exact words in it?

Well, you're taking the words completely out of their context. I'm talking about the total context and meaning of all of the words together used in a specific phrase. I did not say that I didn't use the two words "DVD artifacting" in my comment. My statement is specifically saying that I did not think you meant DVD artifacting because the exact words EXCLUDE DVD artifacting, as stated such:

"I'd bet those effects have more to do with the alternating fields than any actual DVD artifacting."

Of course I have to write the words "DVD artifacting" to be able to exclude that term as a specific problem, and for it to be understood. I can't substitute some sort of pronoun or other term here and have it make sense, okay?

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Actually, it wasn't. You mentioned 720p looking "better" than 1080p in this regard due to the de-interlacer having "issues" (para-phrasing, of course). My point was (and is), the 720p "looking better" (regardless, I mean irregardless for the English language guys out there... , of the degree (somewhat or otherwise)) is irrelevant in the case of my dad viewing 1080i from his cable box and the combing STILL being present.

Got it now?

Peace...

Well, actually it was basically the same thing, because your very first comments were about your Dad watching 1080i signal upconverted to 1080p on his set and noticing visual anomolies, which you then tested against a direct 720p signal, and that the 720p signal reduced some anomolies, as stated in your comments as such:

"Yep, I agree. I've seen this (to some degree) on my dad's 42" Vizio 1080p LCD HDTV. We have an $80 Toshiba upconverting DVD player connected to it via HDMI and I was testing feeding the set 720p output from the player as well as 1080i output. We used Gladiator as the test material. During one scene, I saw some artifacting when feeding the TV a 1080i signal that disappeared when we fed it a 720p signal. This isn't scientific but made me wonder it the Toshiba player could de-interlace better than the TV. When watching 1080i over cable, my dad often notices combing which shouldn't happen if a good de-interlacer is involved. Perhaps his TV is a "flag reader" or something."

The gist of this is that your Dad is watching 1080i cable input to a set that can deinterlace and then upconvert to 1080p, and he notices an effect that might not be there if there were a good deinterlacer built in the set, as you stated yourself. Your tests regarding 720p vs 1080i (which by your statement is upconverted by the set to 1080p) confirm my opine that direct 720p "looked better". That opine came as a direct result of your comments. Certainly those two exact words are mine, but completely indicated as being true by your own comments regarding your test. You also decry the deinterlacing capabilities of the set vs the Toshiba player, and I merely confirmed that I agree.

"Regardless" is considered to be the correct form and usage.

[MooglePorn]

That's the first time I have seen a 2 months later heated counterpoint...

[rixrex]

Yeah, I figured somebody would make that point, but it doesn't reduce the pertinence, just as a week later doesn't either.

There's the old chestnut, first time for everything.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by rixrex

Well, you're taking the words completely out of their context. I'm talking about the total context and meaning of all of the words together used in a specific phrase. I did not say that I didn't use the two words "DVD artifacting" in my comment. My statement is specifically saying that I did not think you meant DVD artifacting because the exact words EXCLUDE DVD artifacting, as stated such:

"I'd bet those effects have more to do with the alternating fields than any actual DVD artifacting."

Of course I have to write the words "DVD artifacting" to be able to exclude that term as a specific problem, and for it to be understood. I can't substitute some sort of pronoun or other term here and have it make sense, okay?

Dude!!! Why couldn't you have just left this alone??? I'm with Moog on this...

Ok, let's make it simpler for you. Here was my original point: I suspected the de-interlacer in my dad's 42" Vizio LCD HDTV wasn't very good due to the combing he reported. We did a test using a SD-DVD copy of Gladiator and found the interlaced output from the DVD player resulted in some combing in a scene where the de-interlaced output from the DVD player didn't. This is talking about de-interlacing and if his DVD player could do it better than his TV. This has nothing to do with DVD artifacting, or scaling, or none of that. You are the one who mentioned anything about "DVD artifacting" of any kind when I'm talking about de-interlacing only. Is this hard for you to grasp or something? Since you introduced "DVD artifacting" into my contribution to this discussion, I guess it makes sense for you to then exclude that as a possible culprit.

Moving right along...

Well, actually it was basically the same thing, because your very first comments were about your Dad watching 1080i signal upconverted to 1080p on his set and noticing visual anomolies, which you then tested against a direct 720p signal, and that the 720p signal reduced some anomolies, as stated in your comments as such:

"Yep, I agree. I've seen this (to some degree) on my dad's 42" Vizio 1080p LCD HDTV. We have an $80 Toshiba upconverting DVD player connected to it via HDMI and I was testing feeding the set 720p output from the player as well as 1080i output. We used Gladiator as the test material. During one scene, I saw some artifacting when feeding the TV a 1080i signal that disappeared when we fed it a 720p signal. This isn't scientific but made me wonder it the Toshiba player could de-interlace better than the TV. When watching 1080i over cable, my dad often notices combing which shouldn't happen if a good de-interlacer is involved. Perhaps his TV is a "flag reader" or something."

Ok, I give up. You win. If you can't even read and comprehend what I posted, then I'm just wasting my time.

Peace...

[Ruined]

I'm not sure what the argument exactly here is about, but one thing to keep in mind about interlacing and artifacts is that standard DVD is much, much, much harder to deinterlace than HD DVD or BD. An HDTV might display lots of artifacts on SD DVD and display none on HD DVD and BD. That is because HD DVD/BD is stored 1080p24 native on disc, while DVD can be a mix of 480i/p content and also because of this cannot have the full frames natively streamed off disc like HD DVD/BD. So while DVDs can be a mess of fields and frames that results in a jumbled interlaced signal, HD DVD/BD always get a perfect interlaced signal since it is created by the player from pure progressive material stored on disc (or it is a true interlaced signal to begin with in the case of some nature docs).

[rixrex]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Dude!!! Why couldn't you have just left this alone??? I'm with Moog on this...

Dude!!! Because you stated something that was totally untrue, and it's not Moog's post anyway. Take a look at your original post again, you said exactly this:

"During one scene, I saw some artifacting when feeding the TV a 1080i signal that disappeared when we fed it a 720p signal."

You specifically were talking about feeding the TV a signal from the toshiba DVD player.

Your exact words were these, copied exactly the way you wrote it:

"Yep, I agree. I've seen this (to some degree) on my dad's 42" Vizio 1080p LCD HDTV. We have an $80 Toshiba upconverting DVD player connected to it via HDMI and I was testing feeding the set 720p output from the player as well as 1080i output. We used Gladiator as the test material. During one scene, I saw some artifacting when feeding the TV a 1080i signal that disappeared when we fed it a 720p signal. This isn't scientific but made me wonder it the Toshiba player could de-interlace better than the TV. When watching 1080i over cable, my dad often notices combing which shouldn't happen if a good de-interlacer is involved. Perhaps his TV is a "flag reader" or something."

You did talk about both artifacting and combing, and deinterlacing as well.

Then you just wrote this which is a cutout or paraphrase of your complete statement, and a re-wording of it, excluding what you wrote in total, and excluding the mention of artifacting that you yourself saw and wrote about:

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Ok, let's make it simpler for you. Here was my original point: I suspected the de-interlacer in my dad's 42" Vizio LCD HDTV wasn't very good due to the combing he reported. We did a test using a SD-DVD copy of Gladiator and found the interlaced output from the DVD player resulted in some combing in a scene where the de-interlaced output from the DVD player didn't. This is talking about de-interlacing and if his DVD player could do it better than his TV. This has nothing to do with DVD artifacting, or scaling, or none of that. You are the one who mentioned anything about "DVD artifacting" of any kind when I'm talking about de-interlacing only. Is this hard for you to grasp or something? Since you introduced "DVD artifacting" into my contribution to this discussion, I guess it makes sense for you to then exclude that as a possible culprit.

I didn't introduce DVD artifacting, you did. Just because you didn't string the two words together doesn't mean you didn't bring it up. Your own words show that you did. I merely stated that I didn't think it was DVD artifacting, and that was basically agreeing with you.

My point here however is that you had no need to reply snidely, nor imply I was either a liar or an idiot, and with derogatory remarks.

My reply to you was reasonable, as such:

"Yes, I think we're basically on the same page here. I didn't think you meant DVD artifacting, but I'm still not surprised about 720p being somewhat better than even the 1080p in this regard, still an upconversion from 1080i, in which the deinterlacer may likely not be able to relieve all of the visual anomolies. A unit that can do such with best effect is going to be a major expense."

Visual anomolies does not mean specifically artifacting, nor does it exclude such I will admit. Yet you had to reply to this in a snide manner, and incorrectly so as well:

"Originally Posted by rixrex:
I didn't think you meant DVD artifacting,

Well, that's what you wrote above (you stated)"

Incorrect, I EXCLUDED DVD artifacting after you initially brought it up as shown in your complete statement quoted above, and it was apparent you didn't follow what I said, no big deal, but there wasn't any need to be a snot. You continued to be sarcastic by using DUDE to refer to me, and use some smarta** laughing icons, and then say such things as "Got it now" and then denigrate my intellect by saying, "Ok, let's make it simpler for you," and "Is this hard for you to grasp or something?", and this is also evidenced by what you wrote here:

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Moving right along...

Ok, I give up. You win. If you can't even read and comprehend what I posted, then I'm just wasting my time.

These are the reasons why you deserved a response from me regardless of the time, and why I called you on it. I don't just sit by idly while somebody states something about me that's incorrect, or insinuates that I am lying or that I am ignorant, and can't read or comprehend.

[Iguana Man]

Wow...Ok, I'm ready.

[rixrex]

Yeah, it's pretty humorous when looked at a certain way, and I'd be chuckling too, if I hadn't been the one told that I said what I didn't say, and the object of snideness and sarcasm as well.

I admit that I have a tendency toward exactness that can sometimes be a compulsion, however, this is exactly why I have won every single IRS audit that I've been to, for myself or for a client, and is also why they never audit me anymore, and for the past 5 years have not audited any of my clients.

Now that I brought it up, I suppose that streak will end, but I still won't lose the audit.

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by Taxi

Link

Of couse, take this with a huge grain of salt, but I think it's interesting nonetheless. Seems to me this is either an act of desperation, or else it's for real, and HD really is gaining.

(I can't believe Ruined hasn't posted this story already. Or maybe he did and I just missed it? )

funny how when toshiba makes a statement like this,its a act of desperation
when sony makes the same statement about blu-ray it must be true!

another poor soul sucked in the sony bs machine

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by Pirate

Actually, Piratehat knows the PS3 is the best BD player and is very sad because of that fact. Piratehat might actually get a PS3 if it has analogs... and wasn't a toy.

sad to think the best bd player is the ps3 a gaming machine.
anybody that knows anything knows this is a short term deal.

how many times has it been stated standalone players has to privail if bd is gonna win this thing.

once the games start rolling out movie sales will fall off.
the fact is sony has known this all along,the ps3 has kept bd in the game.

now we wait for profile 2.0,yet another bd player one has to buy if they want that feature.

blu-ray the superior format....my ass

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

sad to think the best bd player is the ps3 a gaming machine.
anybody that knows anything knows this is a short term deal.

Unless you have quite a bit of people, even on this forum, that own a ps3 specifically or primarily for watching bd movies. For the price and the upgradeability of the ps3, it really isn't a poor choice at all, and make the deal a bit more long term.

how many times has it been stated standalone players has to privail if bd is gonna win this thing.

And standalone players have been selling well for blu-ray, and at prices much higher than the basement sales of the hda2/a3. But when the firesale isn't happening, the price points for the sony and samsung players are close. True, it's profile 1 and somewhat limited, but I wonder how many of those buyers want to buy trinckets off the internets or watch hours of PiP features anyways.

once the games start rolling out movie sales will fall off.
the fact is sony has known this all along,the ps3 has kept bd in the game.

I would argue that Sony positioned the ps3 to be more than a gaming machine this next generation. I would say that even hd-dvd fans recognized this when they called the ps3 a trojan horse. Looking at TV advertisements, I see lots of ads featuring the ps3 as a blu-ray player. Sony knows that it has millions of players that can be potential bd movie buyers. The ps3 was part of the game all along.

now we wait for profile 2.0,yet another bd player one has to buy if they want that feature.

Or if they are ps3 owners, they will already be ready to go.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by ganthc

And standalone players have been selling well for blu-ray, and at prices much higher than the basement sales of the hda2/a3.

Really? I didn't know that. Then again, we now have to define "well".