HDMI 1.3 MEGAreview!

[Ruined]

I know I said Sunday, but my HDMI 1.3 megareview (Toshiba HD-A35 <> Integra DTC-9.8 <> Sony KDS-60A3000) will be delayed a few days for a couple of reasons:

1) My current HDMI 1.3 cable is too short due to the jack location on the KDS-60A3000, so my viewing thus far has been brief due to rigging the components in temporary places due to the short cable length. So I'm waiting on that.

2) I had a couple of issues with the DTC-9.8 / Toshiba HD-A35 bitstream connection, and before I comment on them I wanted to upgrade to the latest firmware on both devices; I had to bring the DTC-9.8 into a shop to get the latest upgrade (bleh), and it should be ready mid-next week. So realistically we are prob talking next Friday or Saturday for a review.

Briefly though, I can say the following:
1) I am very experienced in the field of audio compression so I know exactly what to listen for in terms of artifacting, and I also know which frequencies are first to get the axe. I only did one A/B comparison between lossy DTS-HD decoded in the player and lossless DTS-HDMA decoded in the DTC-9.8 using the UK Terminator 2 HD DVD; I listened to the first 5 mins of the movie and in general, there was little difference between the two despite my actively looking for a difference that I could hear and repeat the test hearing it in the same place. I was able to find one 5 second spot where I could tell there was a bit of high frequency rolloff in the DTS-HD presentation (ambient noise in one of the scenes w/o any action), but it was minute to say the least and I can't say for sure if its the result of the player's decoding or the lossy codec. Also, with some of the older HD DVDs listening bitstream disables the audio of menus and IME. On the whole, I was underwhelmed by bitstream audio, as the improvement was not massive and it impaired the functionality of many HD DVDs. Unless things change, despite my capability to use bitstream audio with receiver-side decoding, I will probably leave set decoding to be done within the player.

2) I only did brief tests with 1080p24 but wow, 120hz sets are SOOOO much better than 60hz ones - massive difference if you know what to look for. Sony also has this ridiculous feature called "motion enhancer" that essentially interpolates frames to make things look "smoother." It essentially makes film look more like a video game or video source, making 24fps look like 60fps - rubbish to say the least. But, disable that and do straight 5:5:5 1080p24 and you are good to go - however, 1080i60 also looks great on this set so it must have good inverse telecine - after further tests I am thinking I might be underwhelmed by 1080p24, too when a 120hz set can do good IVTC. We'll see if it has any drawbacks like the bitstream audio did or if it can make a significant differnece in PQ - did not do enough work here to say for sure.

Anyway, full review upcoming in a week!

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I only did brief tests with 1080p24 but wow, 120hz sets are SOOOO much better than 60hz ones - massive difference if you know what to look for.

I'm interested in this more than any of your (kudos!) honesty.

What exactly are 'we' to expect, look for?

Gimme more please.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

I'm interested in this more than any of your (kudos!) honesty.

What exactly are 'we' to expect, look for?

Gimme more please.

It just looks like film, none of the judder/stutter you see with normal TVs. It looks like film From now on, not buying any TVs unless they display at a multiple of 24hz. The difference is huge.

[chlngr1970]

Kinda OT, but I got this from the spec sheet on my TV:

Front HDMI™ 1.3 Inputs 1
Rear HDMI™ 1.3 Inputs 3
480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i (60Hz) Yes
1080p (24Hz, 30Hz, 60Hz) Yes
Digital Audio Output (Dolby® Digital / PCM) 1 (coaxial)

Guess my Mits will do 180P24...

So, now I know where my first big paycheck from MAV will be going

j

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

Kinda OT, but I got this from the spec sheet on my TV:

Guess my Mits will do 180P24...

So, now I know where my first big paycheck from MAV will be going

j

Just because it accepts 1080p24 via input does not necessarily mean it displays 1080p24. The TV also needs to have a refresh rate that is a multiple of 24. If it is a 60hz TV, it will simply accept 1080p24 and convert it to 1080p60 for display. See if you can find info on your TV to see if it is 72hz/120hz/whatever - as long as its not 60hz or a non-multiple of 24. I don't see anything on the spec sheet which indicates that it is a high refresh display, so you need to look around more.

[chlngr1970]

I should ban you for raining on my parade!



J/K...

It looks like I need to step up to the 833 series to get 120Hz.

I'm still gonna try it and see what happens...maybe I can talk the GF into letting me upgrade

j

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

It just looks like film, none of the judder/stutter you see with normal TVs. It looks like film From now on, not buying any TVs unless they display at a multiple of 24hz. The difference is huge.

Well it ain't night & day. I tried a few discs out with noticeable judder throughout & 24hz didn't correct it at all.

I'd like to see how Next fairs on 24hz. That film looks like it was shot with a freakin hand held. "Transformers" has a bit but isn't too distracting, no where near as bad as "Next"

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Well it ain't night & day. I tried a few discs out with noticeable judder throughout & 24hz didn't correct it at all.

I'd have to say either A) the model your parents bought isn't 120hz or B) it is setup wrong. The difference is very obvious.

Are you sure they didn't buy the E3000 series LCD flatpanel - you mentioned that model in a different thread? Those are *not* 120hz. The 120hz flatpanels cost over $3000 and right now are only 2007 XBR-series. Besides the 2007 XBR flatpanels which are like $3k+, the only other Sonys which are 120hz are the rear projection 2007 A3000 series. Remember, 1080p24 doesn't do jack on its own. It needs to be 1080p24 *and* 120hz.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I'd have to say either A) the model your parents bought isn't 120hz or B) it is setup wrong. The difference is very obvious.

Are you sure they didn't buy the E3000 series LCD flatpanel - you mentioned that model in a different thread? Those are *not* 120hz. The 120hz flatpanels cost over $3000 and right now are only 2007 XBR-series. Besides the 2007 XBR flatpanels which are like $3k+, the only other Sonys which are 120hz are the rear projection 2007 A3000 series. Remember, 1080p24 doesn't do jack on its own. It needs to be 1080p24 *and* 120hz.

Well their tv is a W3000 model. The BD player they have is the S300 & has 24p output. If I turned this option on & they didn't have a capable set, they would get no signal. The XBR's follow the W3000 & offer up 24p. Any model before the W3000 (flat panel) doesn't offer 24p.

Still, if you can I'd really appreciate it if ya could rent "Next" & give that disc a spin if you have not already on a display that isn't 24p. On my 2020 SXRD, it was almost unwatchable.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Well their tv is a W3000 model. The BD player they have is the S300 & has 24p output. If I turned this option on & they didn't have a capable set, they would get no signal. The XBR's follow the W3000 & offer up 24p. Any model before the W3000 (flat panel) doesn't offer 24p.

Yeh, a bit deceiving but the W3000 line - though it ACCEPTS 1080p24 - does not actually DISPLAY 1080p24 since its native refresh rate is not a multiple of 24; it upconverts it to 1080p60 (much like how some CRT sets accept 720p but actually upconvert it to 1080i). The W3000 line's refresh rate is not divisible by 24, therefore you will see zero difference between a standard 1080p set and the W3000 despite it accepting 24p. The only Sony LCD panels that do true 1080p24 display, meaning not only accept it but also display it without judder, are the 2007 Sony XBR4/XBR5 series. The rear projection LCOS A3000 series also does it.

In order to get TRUE 1080p24 without judder, you need to have both 1080p24 input and 72hz/120hz/some multiple of 24 in refresh rate.

[Derb]

Ahh, I hope so cause it was a bit disappointing to see judder on an advertised 24hz display.

Though my set is equally affected & very few discs (thank goodness) have this issue.

Thanks, I'll check into it more later.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Ahh, I hope so cause it was a bit disappointing to see judder on an advertised 24hz display.

Though my set is equally affected & very few discs (thank goodness) have this issue.

Thanks, I'll check into it more later.

Every disc has the judder issue. Its just more obvious on certain discs/scenes than others, especially pans. Fast & the Furious Tokyo Drift has a perfect scene to see the difference.

But its amazing how natural it looks now that it is gone.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Every disc has the judder issue. Its just more obvious on certain discs/scenes than others, especially pans.

No doubt. Well I only notice the discs where the judder actually distracts you from the film. Is the A3000 a Bravia? I saw an ad in widescreen review mag & figure thats the latest Sony SXRD out.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

No doubt. Well I only notice the discs where the judder actually distracts you from the film. Is the A3000 a Bravia? I saw an ad in widescreen review mag & figure thats the latest Sony SXRD out.

Yes, the A3000 is a Bravia SXRD/LCOS Rear Projection series.