Upgrading TV...Need direction

[Wurms]

Well, wasnt really planning on upgrading anytime soon, I love my JVC 52Z575, but my sister just offered to buy it from me after the holidays. Sooooo, Now it seems I am in the market, lol.

Havent really been keeping up with the display market and not sure whats great out there. I LOVE my JVC, so I will definately be looking at their HD-ILA's, but what other TVs are great that I should keep my eye on?

Budget is anything less than $3000. 1080P of course. I like rear projections, but will go LCD, and plasmas are a no-no. Size needs to be between 50" - 60". I dont use TV speakers, so I could care less if they suck. Inputs arent important, everything runs through my receiver, just need the norm

I research everything like crazy before I buy, just asking for a starting point and any opinions on sets you guys have that fit my criteria.

Thanks

[Ruined]

Sony KDS-60A3000

Can't be beat ATM IMO - true 1080p24 with 120hz refresh rate (multiple of 24, so no 3:2 sequence juddering) outstanding color/detail and good blacks. LCOS has less reliability problems than DLP it looks like too from the forums. I got mine from Circuit City for $1700+tax and free shipping on sale and with a coupon.

[sub780lime]

60'' Samsung DLP LED 1080p. Neighbor has one. Dad has one. I have the 56''. Just beautiful.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by sub780lime

60'' Samsung DLP LED 1080p. Neighbor has one. Dad has one. I have the 56''. Just beautiful.

The new Samsung LED DLPs have a problem called the "prism effect" that seems to be affecting even brand new TVs. A lot of complaints about it on AVSFORUM.

[rixrex]

My 1st choice would always be Pioneer, but don't know what you'd find for $3000 and they're tough to find in big box places, but I got a good deal on mine as a close-out item from a big screen specialty place.

My close 2cnd choice is Mitsubishi, and they might be more readily available at big places.

Then a tie at 3rd would be Panasonic or JVC or Sony only if I couldn't afford the top two. We have a nice Sony Outlet store near here and they have good prices I've noticed. I wouldn't buy anything other than these choices.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by rixrex

My 1st choice would always be Pioneer, but don't know what you'd find for $3000 and they're tough to find in big box places, but I got a good deal on mine as a close-out item from a big screen specialty place.

My close 2cnd choice is Mitsubishi, and they might be more readily available at big places.

Then a tie at 3rd would be Panasonic or JVC or Sony only if I couldn't afford the top two. We have a nice Sony Outlet store near here and they have good prices I've noticed. I wouldn't buy anything other than these choices.

Pioneer makes nice plasmas but they are too expensive. I'll be honest here, in this case Sony is clearly the pack leader in bang for buck and overall highest quality with TVs. Better to be product smart than brand loyal.

[chlngr1970]

North

j

[chlngr1970]

Ok, seriously...

Mitsubishi has been very good to me so far. I may just end up picking up the WS 57833's Big Brother, the 65, for 1080p24. One Call has them for a little over $2100 acording to the google search I did.

j

[Iguana Man]

Is there still the issue of screen image 'wash out' on Plasmas when alot of ambient light is present in the room?

Also, is there still an issue with static images from video games getting burned into Plasma screens? This I think is no longer an issue.

Just bringing it up since it could influence Wurms decision.

[rixrex]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Pioneer makes nice plasmas but they are too expensive. I'll be honest here, in this case Sony is clearly the pack leader in bang for buck and overall highest quality with TVs. Better to be product smart than brand loyal.

Thanks, that makes me feel good about sticking with Pioneer over Sony, haha.

I agree product smart is best, yet I will always look at Pioneer before deciding, they are never out of the comparison equation. But if I was forced to look at only two brands, it'd be Pioneer and Mistsubishi, and then I'd sneak over to our local Sony outlet store and see what they have.

Fortunately, the sets themselves have not been dragged into the monopolistic exclusivity arrangements.

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

Is there still the issue of screen image 'wash out' on Plasmas when alot of ambient light is present in the room?

Also, is there still an issue with static images from video games getting burned into Plasma screens? This I think is no longer an issue.

Just bringing it up since it could influence Wurms decision.

Plasma still suffer from Image Retentsion, but it can be reversed, by running a diffferent image through the screen over time. Much in the same way the image is burned into the screen, it is, for lack of a better term, burned out...

j

[Toefur]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Sony KDS-60A3000

Can't be beat ATM IMO - true 1080p24 with 120hz refresh rate (multiple of 24, so no 3:2 sequence juddering) outstanding color/detail and good blacks. LCOS has less reliability problems than DLP it looks like too from the forums. I got mine from Circuit City for $1700+tax and free shipping on sale and with a coupon.

Wow you got a good deal on it there. I got mine when they first came out in September at BB and spent almost $2500 on it after taxes, with a coupon. Oh well...

[rixrex]

I agree that when it comes to all the nice features that a videophile wants, Sony will typically have them. That's the good side of their technocratic corporate ideation. I have also found that Pioneer and Mitsubishi will have them as well, yet might be a bit pricier or tough to locate at a good discount place. Though I have seen Mitsubishi pushing some TV ads recently.

My preference for Pioneer has come from two reasons, the products have proven to be top quality and extremely reliable, and their big US support facility is only 50 miles from me, though I have had to call them rarely.

Interestingly, in regards to the 1080p24 24fps deal, there was a film transfer process that did a similar thing where there was a 5 blade shutter on the projector that allowed it put out 120 frames per second and could be used for transfer to video, but it took about twice the light source that 3:2 pulldown systems used, so it wasn't used much.

A 120 frame refresh rate will eliminate 3:2 pulldown by presenting 5 sequential frames that are the same before flipping to the next frame. The effect in the eye thanks to persisitence of vision is very smooth continuous motion. It's most useful an very large screen sets, in films with wide motion across the screen. I have seen this to be visually less than significant in sets under 50".

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by rixrex

IA 120 frame refresh rate will eliminate 3:2 pulldown by presenting 5 sequential frames that are the same before flipping to the next frame. The effect in the eye thanks to persisitence of vision is very smooth continuous motion. It's most useful an very large screen sets, in films with wide motion across the screen. I have seen this to be visually less than significant in sets under 50".

Yep, and thats why I wanted the KDS-60A3000

[rixrex]

And that's also why I'm satisfied with my Pioneer Elite 64". However, it appears Pioneer has gotten out of sets larger than 60" so I'll have to look elswhere for a new set as I won't go smaller than 64" now. Mitsubishi has 65" and 73" models, and I must say I like the 72" Sony I saw recently.

120 hertz rate is great as long as the transfer keeps the blur in the fast-motion that mimics the eye. 24fps film at normal exposure happens to be very close to that. Some high speed film stock that could make use of a variable shutter on a film camera will cause a reduction of that blur, and end up creating a strobe effect during scenes of motion. This effect has become more prevalent in video capture, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not.

I have seen some same film transfers of both 3:2 pulldown and 5 blade shutters, and the 5 blade shutter when done right is very good. It does, in effect, creat two exposures on one field of video if captured in interlaced mode or one frame of video if progressive mode, so what happens is that the 5th exposure of a particular frame of film then is exposed with the 1st exposure of the next frame of film, and results in an artifically created blur effect. This happenes once between every two frames of film but really isn't even noticable.

The effect of 3:2 pulldown 'judder' is also imperceptible except to the trained and discerning eye, but to such an eye could be visible as alternately speeding and slowing motion, and since it would happen 5 times per second, you can see why most people wouldn't notice.

[Iguana Man]

It's amazing the news you get around here when you simply 'blink'.

[rixrex]

Certainly that is very true!

If you ever see a DVD transfer where the action scenes tend to 'strobe', this limitation of blur effect with the corresponding microsecond blank field or frame swap is the reason why. Your eye due to natural design will always have a natural blur effect on fast or wide motion activity but there is no corresponding frame swap. If there is a lack of or limited blur effect in a video or film image action scene, the scene will look herky-jerky to the eye and create this strobe effect. Some filmmakers actually use this for an effect, but most times it just looks unnatural.

This is one of the initial complaints about some early DVD transfers, and the same complainers would state that they thought LDs appeared more 'film-like'. This was mostly a side effect of the progressive scan generators on early DVD players for certainly if an original film had a blur effect on the film itself, it would be transferred to LD, tape, or DVD regardless. Still it's an effect not immediately visible to an untrained eye, plus it's also less noticable on CRT sets because of the slight afterglow image of the phospor screen.

[Wurms]

Thanks for the responses

Been looking at the Sony TV's and WOW they are a great price for a great picture. Vanns has the 55" for $1650 and the 60" for $1850 So, right now that is at the top of my list. My parents have last years model and that is a great picture, think they paid like $2600 though, hehe.

Next time I am at Frys I am gonna check out the Mitsubishi's.

Gotta think if a 60" screen is gonna be too overwhelming in my living room. But for $200 more I get 5" with that Sony and I dont wanna pass up on that deal.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Wurms

Gotta think if a 60" screen is gonna be too overwhelming in my living room.

What are the dimensions of your living room and how far away will your primary seating be from the new TV?

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

What are the dimensions of your living room and how far away will your primary seating be from the new TV?

Forget dimensions. If you don't have to run your head to see the whole pictures, its no too big!

[Wurms]

I sit about 9ft away from my screen.

[Wurms]

Just ordered the SONY KDS-60A3000 from OneCall.com for a grand total of $1699.99 Also tacked on a 5 year protection plan for $259 since it also covers bulb replacement, and after 5 years the bulb is definately gonna need replacing.

PRAYING IT GETS HERE BEFORE THE WEEKEND!!!

Will post pics in Theater Forum when its setup and ready to roll

Thanks for everyones feedback

[chlngr1970]

Congrats! It's always good to get a new toy

Of course, we expect a full review and pix ASAP...

j

[Iguana Man]

^^ What J' said!^^

Since you had the same TV as me (the JVC) I'd love for you to compare them once you get the new KDS setup. I kinda think 9' away from a 60"er is kinda close but maybe not. Anyway, please compare them in your 'review'.

[Shadowman82]

If I got a new TV it would be either LCD or Plasma and I would choose Sony for LCD and Pioneer for Plasma .

Rear Projection sets are a turn off for me because they never have the light output of a Direct View alternative like LCD and Plasma , plus you have to buy replacement bulbs .

Just out of curiosity , can anyone tell me if burn in is still an issue on Plasmas from a good manufacturer like Pioneer ? Surely it's still not advisable to play Videogames on a Plasma . If so that would be a reason against Plasma for me .

[Ruined]

Some settings to start you out

Hit "Home" button.

For your HD DVD/BD input:
Motion Enhancer = Off
Motion Naturalizer = Off
Cinemotion = Off (1080p24 HD player output only); Cinemotion = Auto2 (all other sources/resolutions/framerates)

Picture options:
Picture Mode = Custom
Dynamic Iris = Min
Picture = Max
Brightness = 50
Color = 50
Sharpness = 35
Color Temp = Warm2
Noise Reduction = Off
Black Corrector = Off
Gamma = Off
Clear White = Off
Live Color = Off
Color Space = Standard
White Balance
R-Gain = -3
G-Gain = -1
B-Gain = 0
R-Bias = 1
G-Bias = -1
B-Bias = 0
Detail Enhancer = Off
Edge Enhancer = Off

General options:
Power Saving = Off

That should give you a good start

[videoworx]

Just out of curiosity , can anyone tell me if burn in is still an issue on Plasmas from a good manufacturer like Pioneer ? Surely it's still not advisable to play Videogames on a Plasma . If so that would be a reason against Plasma for me .

After 4 years of constantly using plasmas for watching TV/movies, playing video games, and video production work, I can vouch for the complete lack of burn-in. It simply doesn't happen if you use the set properly (ie. don't crank the contrast, and don't leave an image frozen for 14 hours straight). Now, this is strictly with Panasonic-brand sets (which I prefer over Pioneer). Other brands may vary.

[LeChuck]

I am going to hijack this thread and ask a question of my own. I already started a thread about the PS3, which brought on questions about a new TV. I need some input; I am thinking of going with something between 40 and 50 inches for about 1500 (if that is even doable). I was thinking 1080p24, but is that necessary on a set that size. To be honest, I have never in my life purchased a TV, I have always been a projector person. But I am considering a TV for a few reasons and need some help. Even what brands are good. Fill me with knowledge and suggestions!! Thanks!

[Derb]

Or try these,

Power Saving - On
Color Matrix - Standard
Custom Picture Mode
Iris - Medium
Picture - 74
Brightness - 54
Color - 41
hue - 0
Color Temp - Warm 2
Sharpness - 45
Noise Reduction - Off

Advanced settings

Black Corrector - Low
Gamma - Off
Clear White - Off
Live Color - Off
White Balance;
RG = -8
GG = -10
BG = -2
RB = -7
GB = -3
BB = -2
Detail Enhancer - High
Edge Enhancement - Off

[Shadowman82]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Some settings to start you out

Hit "Home" button.

For your HD DVD/BD input:
Motion Enhancer = Off
If player output is 1080p24, Cinemotion = Off. If it is 1080i or standard 1080p, Cinemotion = Auto2.
Under picture options,
Picture Mode = Custom
Dynamic Iris = Min
Picture = Max
Brightness = 50
Color = 50
Sharpness = 35
Color Temp = Warm2
Turn off DNR and all the noise reduction crap in advanced options.

That should give you a good start

Hmm why turn down the Dynamic Iris to Min ? Isn't that what helps these sets achieve greater contrast ratio ?

[Shadowman82]

Originally Posted by videoworx

After 4 years of constantly using plasmas for watching TV/movies, playing video games, and video production work, I can vouch for the complete lack of burn-in. It simply doesn't happen if you use the set properly (ie. don't crank the contrast, and don't leave an image frozen for 14 hours straight). Now, this is strictly with Panasonic-brand sets (which I prefer over Pioneer). Other brands may vary.

I'm pretty sure Pioneer is just as good when it comes to not burning in .

[LeChuck]

Well, with that rip-raoring success, I am going to attempt to take on a plane. I will give you details.

[umainebearman]

Originally Posted by LeChuck

Well, with that rip-raoring success, I am going to attempt to take on a plane. I will give you details.

Actually 42 inches with 1080p is very doable. I have a friend that just bought an LG 47 inch 1080 p for a little under $1600 at Best Buy or Circuit City. I bought the little brother to that model just today. A 42 inch 720 p for just over a grand at BB.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

Hmm why turn down the Dynamic Iris to Min ? Isn't that what helps these sets achieve greater contrast ratio ?

I guess its what you're after. Turning up the dynamic iris does increase the contrast ratio but it does so by decreasing the accuracy of the image (i.e. for instance whites output much brighter than they actually should be in order to trick your eye into thinking blacks look blacker). Turning down the dynamic iris can reduce the contrast ratio but improve the accuracy of the image. I've found the above settings have a nice output level yet minimal iris response. If you want the "iris" effect you can get a similar look by doing Picture 80 / Low or Medium Iris instead.

Also note my settings are for a room that you can make dim, not for a room which has no light control.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Sharpness - 45
Detail Enhancer - High

[Shadowman82]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I guess its what you're after. Turning up the dynamic iris does increase the contrast ratio but it does so by decreasing the accuracy of the image (i.e. for instance whites output much brighter than they actually should be in order to trick your eye into thinking blacks look blacker). Turning down the dynamic iris can reduce the contrast ratio but improve the accuracy of the image. I've found the above settings have a nice output level yet minimal iris response. If you want the "iris" effect you can get a similar look by doing Picture 80 / Low or Medium Iris instead.

Also note my settings are for a room that you can make dim, not for a room which has no light control.

I'd have to see what it would look like to make a decision wether I would turn it to min or high .

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I sinse pimped up my contrast, & wanted HD to look the best it could get without artifacting. Those 2 settings seem to go well together + with the Iris at medium the set needs more umph.

[Wurms]

Derb and Ruined are having a contest for best settings

I was hoping to get my TV before the weekend, but they called today to schedule delivery on Monday I tracked the package and its gonna be sitting in a warehouse 25 miles away from me for the next 3 days, ARGH!!!

I'll try the settings out and see what works. I can dim my room, so maybe start with "the ruined settings"

Gonna watch some blu-rays this weekend (probably Pirates2, Prestige, and Vacancy) on my JVC so the image is implanted in my head to compare to the Sony. I'll have both sets until my sister picks it up so I have a week to compare compare compare!!!

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Wurms

I'll try the settings out and see what works. I can dim my room, so maybe start with "the ruined settings"

NOOOOOO don't start on torch mode!!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

NOOOOOO don't start on torch mode!!

You are the one closer to "torch" mode by enabling the dynamic iris at medium It fires far more higher temperature color than min iris with max contrast. That is the way iris works, higher intensity colors than called for by the source to trick the eye into thinking there is a larger contrast ratio than the set can actually reproduce accurately.

I was reading up on AVSFORUM and found my settings are actually relatively close to Eliab's of Avical with this set, so I think I'm pretty close to being on-target.

Also Wurms has a 5-year lamp-replacement warranty so there is no need to worry about it in the first place. I bought an extended lamp replacement warranty for the same reason, so I didn't have to gimp my settings in fear of the lamp dying.