Denon BT-2500 = Panasonic BD30 + $500? - Page 2

videoworx · 01-29-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sub780lime

Aside from the Bluetooth remote (

)

Non-USB IR solution in sight...

dugpa · 01-29-2008, 10:11 PM

They can make the PS3 Profile 27.0 for all I care, if it won't pass the bitstream of the audio formats nor decode DTS MA, no sale. I don't care about being able to download ringtones from my favorite films, I want to hear the lossless audio.
Don't even get me started on how slot loaders have no business in a home theater. The PS3 is a toy, nothing more.

Iguana Man · 01-29-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugpa

The PS3 is a toy, nothing more.

You know, I really, really wanna agree with you here, but cannot. Why? Because so far, the PS3 has been overwhelmingly accepted as the best BR player out there to date. If that has changed, so be it. But "toy" gives a negative effect and yes, I am happy.

**Pirate** · 01-29-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

You know, I really, really wanna agree with you here, but cannot. Why? Because so far, the PS3 has been overwhelmingly accepted as the best BR player out there to date. If that has changed, so be it. But "toy" gives a negative effect and yes, I am happy.

I honestly don't think there's a "best" BD player out there yet. If you have a next-gen AVR, then it would probably be The Panasonic BD30 (or the Denon if we ever get that resolved), even with the audio issues. Since the PS3 does not decode DTS-HD nor bitstream any of the new audio formats, I don’t think it can be considered "the best."

dugpa · 01-29-2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate

Since the PS3 does not decode DTS-HD nor bitstream any of the new audio formats, I don’t think it can be considered "the best."

Exactly!

Derb · 01-29-2008, 11:41 PM

Sinse PCM is just as good as bitstream (In fact better because you do not need a receiver which has the decoders) & a dts-HDMA update is on route, I could care less that people think its a toy.

**Pirate** · 01-29-2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derb

Sinse PCM is just as good as bitstream (In fact better because you do not need a receiver which has the decoders) & a dts-HDMA update is on route, I could care less that people think its a toy.

Aren't several studios moving away from PCM and towards TrueHD and DTS-HD, though?

videoworx · 01-30-2008, 01:12 AM

Hasn't it been proven that we pathetic humans can't hear the difference between 4 bit and 12,986 bit audio? Who cares about next-gen audio? It's all the same.

dugpa · 01-30-2008, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derb

& a dts-HDMA update is on route,

I've been hearing this for over a year now. It has yet to materialize, and as near as I can tell it's based purely on wishful thinking. If it doesn't do it yet I'm skeptical that it has the hardware to be able to do it ever.

brian · 01-30-2008, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by videoworx

Hasn't it been proven that we pathetic humans can't hear the difference between 4 bit and 12,986 bit audio? Who cares about next-gen audio? It's all the same.

That's true.

Sehnzeleid · 01-30-2008, 01:41 AM

On a side note about the PS3's "on system" touch buttons, I think they detect flesh. The system won't turn on if you try and press the power button with anything but skin.

Sehnzeleid · 01-30-2008, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugpa

I've been hearing this for over a year now. It has yet to materialize, and as near as I can tell it's based purely on wishful thinking. If it doesn't do it yet I'm skeptical that it has the hardware to be able to do it ever.

I figure if the PS3 has the ability to transcode DSD into PCM or DTS, HD decoding doesn't seem out of the question...

dugpa · 01-30-2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

I figure if the PS3 has the ability to transcode DSD into PCM or DTS, HD decoding doesn't seem out of the question...

That's faulty reasoning. DSD has very little if nothing to do with DTS-MA, and just because something decodes DTS doesn't mean it can do MA. MA requires different hardware decoding.
I think people have gotten too used to firmware updates and sometimes think they can do magic things that the hardware won't support. I'm not saying that I know for sure that the PS3 doesn't have the hardware to decode DTS-MA, but the fact that we haven't seen it yet after the player's been out for a good while makes me think it may never happen.

sub780lime · 01-30-2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugpa

Don't even get me started on how slot loaders have no business in a home theater. The PS3 is a toy, nothing more.

With the super coating that is on BD discs, does it really matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derb

Sinse PCM is just as good as bitstream (In fact better because you do not need a receiver which has the decoders) & a dts-HDMA update is on route, I could care less that people think its a toy.

Thats one of its greatest advantage. The ability for it to be updated...

videoworx · 01-30-2008, 03:46 AM

I think Derb has proved his point here...for the same reason people won't ever bother looking at the PS3 as a home theatre solution, so will other people regard anything cheaper than $1000 to be nothing but a cheap plastic hunk o' junk - regardless of what the capabilities of the insides are.

To each their own. Denon has been in this business for a very long time (as has Marantz, the company that is married to them). They are marketing to a very defined niche audience, and charge a premium entry fee. This isn't new - all their CD and laserdisc players were built by Pioneer, and some of their DVD players were built by Panasonic. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that you're paying for a status symbol.

***chlngr1970*** · 01-30-2008, 05:35 AM

dts was late to the DVD party as well, and wasn't mandatory. I Believe it is mandatory with HD DVD to have dts HD as well as the dolby codecs. This is one reason I chose HD DVD over Blu Ray.

j

Taxi · 01-30-2008, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by videoworx

Hasn't it been proven that we pathetic humans can't hear the difference between 4 bit and 12,986 bit audio? Who cares about next-gen audio? It's all the same.

Let's leave the sarcasm out of this, okay?

dugpa · 01-30-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sub780lime

With the super coating that is on BD discs, does it really matter.

What about dvds or cds or sacds that don't have the protective coating?

Quote:

Originally Posted by videoworx

I think Derb has proved his point here...for the same reason people won't ever bother looking at the PS3 as a home theatre solution, so will other people regard anything cheaper than $1000 to be nothing but a cheap plastic hunk o' junk - regardless of what the capabilities of the insides are. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that you're paying for a status symbol.

Even with the items built by others, their are differences in build quality between the denon versions. Power supplies, circuity, lots of things get changed. It's not like you're buying the same player with a denon name slapped on the front.
I have nothing against paying $500 for a blu-ray player if someone makes a good one at that price point. Hell, I love my A1 and it only cost me $450. But I stand by my earlier statement that people who refuse to believe there can be any good reason to buy a piece of equipment that costs more are usually ones who can't afford it so they feel the need to make themselves feel better by denying the benefit. "Oh, a new Ferrari costs $175,000? Well my Kia gets me from one place to another just fine so people who buy Ferrari's are stupid! There's no difference after all, they both have an engine and four wheels!"

Ruined · 01-30-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by videoworx

I think Derb has proved his point here...for the same reason people won't ever bother looking at the PS3 as a home theatre solution, so will other people regard anything cheaper than $1000 to be nothing but a cheap plastic hunk o' junk - regardless of what the capabilities of the insides are.

Not necessarily. A standalone and videogame machine are two different subtypes of movie players. Functionality wise they are quite a bit different; one only plays Blu-ray movies while the other one plays games, movies and has media center tasks. This affects how the player starts up, works, etc. Most people over at AVS claim that the standalones have a sharper picture than the PS3, too.

On the other hand, with Denon vs. Panasonic we are comparing two standalones, identical save for the case they are in. Now I have no problem with build quality, but I can't fathom why the 2500 costs twice as much aside from markup... If it was $699, that would make more sense, and would be a reasonable markup for build quality - especially when the player is cheaper to make in some ways! (no analog 2.0/5.1 and less outputs).

videoworx · 01-30-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

one only plays Blu-ray movies while the other one plays games, movies and has media center tasks.

The Pioneer models have media centers built into them, and there are plenty of games offered on Blu-Ray discs.

Quote:

Most people over at AVS claim that the standalones have a sharper picture than the PS3, too.

Arguable, and probably a placebo effect.

Again, the Denon costs more, because they can get away with it. For the same reason Bang & Olufsen get away with rebranding Samsung TVs and marking them up 1000 percent. And the same reason Cadillac takes a Saab 9-5, adds some plastic, calls it the STS, and marks it up another $10,000.

brian · 01-30-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugpa

But I stand by my earlier statement that people who refuse to believe there can be any good reason to buy a piece of equipment that costs more are usually ones who can't afford it so they feel the need to make themselves feel better by denying the benefit.

Just as there are others who buy Bose and make themselves feel better by paying high prices over other comparable HTIB solutions and other audio products.

A lot of factors play into pricing, be it the distribution method, costs of operations, or simply perceived value. Not every higher-priced item is superior.

sub780lime · 01-30-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruined

Not necessarily. A standalone and videogame machine are two different subtypes of movie players. Functionality wise they are quite a bit different; one only plays Blu-ray movies while the other one plays games, movies and has media center tasks.

If anything, it only says the functionality is greater, because there is more of it, not necessarily different, since it does everything that stand-alone will do. If my VCR/DVD combo does everything my stand-alone DVD player does, is it not really a dvd player?

dugpa · 01-31-2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian

Not every higher-priced item is superior.

Conversely, not every higher-priced item is a waste of money.

Taxi · 01-31-2008, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian

Just as there are others who buy Bose and make themselves feel better by paying high prices over other comparable HTIB solutions and other audio products.

Comparing Denon to Bose? Bad form, man, bad form!

brian · 01-31-2008, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxi

Comparing Denon to Bose? Bad form, man, bad form!

I'm not. I was responding to the broad statement made by dugpa regarding the critique of higher priced items rather than the Denon itself. Don't worry Taxi, I consider Denon respectable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugpa

Conversely, not every higher-priced item is a waste of money.

I never said it was.

01-29-2008, 10:11 PM	#42 (permalink)
dugpa Nothing But the Best Join Date: Sep 2004	They can make the PS3 Profile 27.0 for all I care, if it won't pass the bitstream of the audio formats nor decode DTS MA, no sale. I don't care about being able to download ringtones from my favorite films, I want to hear the lossless audio. Don't even get me started on how slot loaders have no business in a home theater. The PS3 is a toy, nothing more. __________________ DVD collection LD collection Format war rules: Never let facts get in the way of dogma.

01-29-2008, 11:41 PM	#46 (permalink)
Derb Actor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: canada	Sinse PCM is just as good as bitstream (In fact better because you do not need a receiver which has the decoders) & a dts-HDMA update is on route, I could care less that people think its a toy. __________________ DVD, HD DVD & BD Collection Finished supporting High-Def. Time for Blu to go mainstream.

01-30-2008, 01:12 AM	#48 (permalink)
videoworx Would Make a Good Incubus Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere near Nebraska	Hasn't it been proven that we pathetic humans can't hear the difference between 4 bit and 12,986 bit audio? Who cares about next-gen audio? It's all the same. __________________ And let’s not forget the fact that Tron turned the Frisbee into an instrument of righteous smiting.

01-30-2008, 03:46 AM	#55 (permalink)
videoworx Would Make a Good Incubus Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere near Nebraska	I think Derb has proved his point here...for the same reason people won't ever bother looking at the PS3 as a home theatre solution, so will other people regard anything cheaper than $1000 to be nothing but a cheap plastic hunk o' junk - regardless of what the capabilities of the insides are. To each their own. Denon has been in this business for a very long time (as has Marantz, the company that is married to them). They are marketing to a very defined niche audience, and charge a premium entry fee. This isn't new - all their CD and laserdisc players were built by Pioneer, and some of their DVD players were built by Panasonic. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that you're paying for a status symbol. __________________ And let’s not forget the fact that Tron turned the Frisbee into an instrument of righteous smiting.

01-30-2008, 05:35 AM	#56 (permalink)
*chlngr1970* Producer/Admin Tenacious "OB" Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Spanaway Washington	dts was late to the DVD party as well, and wasn't mandatory. I Believe it is mandatory with HD DVD to have dts HD as well as the dolby codecs. This is one reason I chose HD DVD over Blu Ray. j __________________ "The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return" Christian, Moulin Rouge

01-30-2008, 01:41 AM	#51 (permalink)
Sehnzeleid Actor Join Date: Jul 2006	On a side note about the PS3's "on system" touch buttons, I think they detect flesh. The system won't turn on if you try and press the power button with anything but skin.