Denon BT-2500 = Panasonic BD30 + $500?

[Ruined]

Something funny I noticed over at AVSFORUM, it appears every single bug that hits the $499 BD30 also affects the $999 Denon BT-2500 in exactly the same way. While other brand players have their own different bugs, every bug unique to the Panasonic BD30 is shared by the Denon BT-2500 in an identical fashion.

That being said, it is most likely that these players share a decent amount of circuitry, if not most of their circuitry. With that being said and the Denon BT-2500 lacking any sort of special video processor (only the $2k denon has this), what exactly makes the Denon worth $500 more? A nicer chassis? You could argue build quality but even if you buy a Panasonic BD30 and it breaks, you could throw it away and buy a brand new 2nd BD30 without exceeding the price of the Denon. Better DACs is irrelevant here since all the D/A conversion is done outside the player these days - especially in the Denon which has all digital output.

To me the BT-2500 looks more like a money-making opportunity for Denon than it looks like any great benefit to their consumers. But, if someone has a tangible argument for why it is better now that it seems it and the BD30 are brothers, I'm all for hearing it. After all their might be some part swap-out that might make a significant difference, I'm just wondering exactly which part that might be.

[Taxi]

How many times do you need to have this argument?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Taxi

How many times do you need to have this argument?

I'm not aware I had it in the first place. Originally I simply it was underfeatured for the price. Now it is obvious it shares much hardware with the BD30, a player half its cost - as it shares all the same glitches. My question is, what could the Denon offer that the Panasonic does not when all of the "fragile" conversions are done outside of the box?

Better reliablity might be one, but again you can buy two BD30s for the price of a BT-2500. And those BD30s have more features.

Video/audio quality? I'm not so sure. Again, there is no D/A conversion done inside the player. In the past the DAC was always the sticking point where you'd see the quality difference with audio quality (and video if using component). And no video processor here, which in the HD world seems to make the big difference with video quality. Are we back to the jitter argument?

Taxi, I know you are interested in the Denon, but this is a good area to have a discussion on. Instead of just spending $1000 on something "because its Denon and better," lets talk about what actually is different in the innards that could make it better.

The war is over so now we must move onto other topics, analyzing hardware is one of those topics.

[chlngr1970]

Acording to the people I spoke with from Denon, their BD chassis are complete fabrication by their R&D team. The way they talked, they were a completely new design, done totaly in house.

But since Sony didn't make their BD Player, why should Denon make theirs? I know that the lower end Denon players were made by Finai...or one of those companies...so...

j

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

Acording to the people I spoke with from Denon, their BD chassis are complete fabrication by their R&D team. The way they talked, they were a completely new design, done totaly in house.

But since Sony didn't make their BD Player, why should Denon make theirs? I know that the lower end Denon players were made by Finai...or one of those companies...so...

j

When DVD first came out, Denons were based on Panasonics. It appears the same has occured with Blu-ray. Also, the same could be said for the HD DVD side - when Onkyo first came out in DVD they were based on Toshiba players, and the same occured with HD DVD.

Now there could be changes such as more robust power supplies, more hearty mechanical parts, etc. But when everything is digital, the question is how much does these type of things help the resulting A/V output, and how much is just overkill? If there was some analog signals present in the box then definitely we could see that higher end parts might help the resulting signal. But with an all-digital design, I'm more skeptical upon what could really be improved. Perhaps a better video scaler, however Denon has not advertised this in the lower end model - only the $2k model appears to have Realta. On top of this, you actually lose outputs from the BD30. So what are we getting for the money that makes it double the price of a Panasonic BD30 which it appears to be based on?

[videoworx]

Something tells me Ruined won't be happy until Toshiba starts making Blu-Ray players with Amir's signature of approval stamped across the front.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by videoworx

Something tells me Ruined won't be happy until Toshiba starts making Blu-Ray players with Amir's signature of approval stamped across the front.

Something tells me your post adds nothing to the discussion, and it is not the first of this trolling nature you have made recently.

But if you want to blindly spend $1000+ on something - that as per Roger Dressler currently outputs the wrong volume levels with ~80% of the BD discs out there and is further unable to output lossless sound w/ PiP active - without even knowing or discussing what you are getting for your extra money (if anything, in this case you may actually be getting less than the cheaper alternative), go for it. On the other hand, you must also realize that some people are actually interested in knowing what they are getting for their money before they blow $1k on something.

[videoworx]

No, I enjoy coming to DVDFile every day and reading yet another anti-Sony/anti-Blu-Ray thread that looks like it was copied/pasted from AVS. Keep it up!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by videoworx

No, I enjoy coming to DVDFile every day and reading yet another anti-Sony/anti-Blu-Ray thread that looks like it was copied/pasted from AVS. Keep it up!

Please explain how this thread is "anti-BluRay", your comment makes little sense.

Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs has confirmed that the BD30 and BT2500 are affected identically by the LFE bug as well as the Resident Evil TrueHD bug (unlike any other players except the Panasonics) and they have similar menus. They are both identical feature wise (though the Denon trimmed out some of the BD30's outputs) and are spec'd identically in terms of BD profiles. They certainly share a whole lot of electronics for all this to be true. And Denon did the same with standard DVD, basing their design off Panasonic's at first.

And if that is the case, the question is what did Denon change, if anything, the makes the player worth double the cost when their is no analog conversion anywhere in the player - all of that will be done by your receiver? It is worthwhile to examine this instead of burying our heads in the sand, especially on a $1k+ purchase.

[Taxi]

Originally Posted by Ruined

But if you want to blindly spend $1000+ on something

This is where you lose me.

Can't you give people the benefit of the doubt, or must you assume that if somebody thinks the 2500 might be a decent BRD player, then they must be blindly buying Denon because of the name?

Obviously the 2500 and the BD30 share some components, I'm not trying to deny that. But until they share ALL components, I think they way you've laid you your comparison here is at least a little unfair.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Taxi

This is where you lose me.

Can't you give people the benefit of the doubt, or must you assume that if somebody thinks the 2500 might be a decent BRD player, then they must be blindly buying Denon because of the name?

Obviously the 2500 and the BD30 share some components, I'm not trying to deny that. But until they share ALL components, I think they way you've laid you your comparison here is at least a little unfair.

Well, that is the discussion at hand. Instead of people getting offended, lets figure it out. Exactly what is $500 extra buying you in an all-digital device with no advertised special video processor of any sort? DD, DTS, TrueHD, DTS-HDMA - either work or don't work because they are packeted bitstream. HDMI PCM you might be able to make the jitter argument though even then some consider that argument "hogwash" as modern DACs/receivers can compensate for it with anti-jitter/reclocking circuitry. So that leaves us with video quality and build quality; the Panasonic BD30 already has proved to have reference video quality with BD... And even if your BD30 craps out after warranty, you can throw it away, buy another, and still spend signficantly less than you did on a single Denon player. The only mystery left is upconversion, but again the $2k Denon is the one with the killer upconversion chip, not the cheaper model (according to Denon's specs).

So really, what makes this player worth the cash with all that in mind, knowing that it is based on the BD30 which costs half the price (and has more outputs), and that all of the most delicate/sensitive conversions are done outside of both players? That is the point of this thread, to answer that question if there is an answer.

And the follow up would be, of course, wouldn't it be wise to wait for the final BD2.0 spec before dropping $1k+ on any player?

[Pirate]

I think the issue is your use of "=" instead of "vs." in the thread title.

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by Pirate

I think the issue is your use of "=" instead of "vs." in the thread title.

well, he does mark it as a question. To me that means, is the BT-2500 the same as the BD30.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by sub780lime

well, he does mark it as a question. To me that means, is the BT-2500 the same as the BD30.

It’s still misleading, though. These are two different machines with different components. They might be very similar, but they do not physically equal each other. Someone seeing this thread might think Denon was cheating them by rebranding a Panasonic.

[biglyle]

Ruined,

I think the problem is that every time someone doesn't agree with you, you label them as stupid. You may not come out an say it, but you defiantly imply it with comments like, "But if you want to blindly spend $1000+ on something." No one here needs to justify their purchases to you. Just because you feel a product is of little value gives you no right to belittle someone else for choosing it. Debate is fine, but there is a line between arguing a point and a personal attack. You, lately, seem to be crossing that line a lot.
I at one point defended your intentions on this board, I am now starting to regret that.

[Iguana Man]

You know, there are some here and elsewhere that will spend more for "looks". Perhaps that can be one of the reasons the additional $500 is spent?

[Ruined]

Perhaps, Iggy, perhaps...

Couple of initial impressions from AVSFORUM, people who got theirs already:

Originally Posted by lrstevens421

In this setup it replaced a Panasonic BD30, for Blu-rays (1080p24) it looks indentical to the Panasonic.

Originally Posted by awtryau89

Load times on BD are almost exactly the same as my BD30 for me. Sometimes the Denon would win and sometimes the Panny. I had a little contest and declared it a tie.

But Derb you'll be happy to know that the tray is hearty

[Ruined]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=985146

Pretty much confirmed now over at AVSFORUM that the Denon 2500 is a Panasonic BD30 internally, with a new fancier chassis and less outputs on the outside. My topic stands.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

But Derb you'll be happy to know that the tray is hearty

Thats good to know. Ya gotta have a well built disc tray. Even my old school Panasonic disc tray crapped out on me after 5-600 dvd viewings.

For primary BD playback, I see no need for a tray period as each disc is super coated but for DVDs, yes I see a point.

AS per the Denon being equal to the Panasonic, well good. At least people who buy it will have outsides of an XA2 & the insides of a BD30. Not a bad combo imo.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Thats good to know. Ya gotta have a well built disc tray. Even my old school Panasonic disc tray crapped out on me after 5-600 dvd viewings.

For primary BD playback, I see no need for a tray period as each disc is super coated but for DVDs, yes I see a point.

AS per the Denon being equal to the Panasonic, well good. At least people who buy it will have outsides of an XA2 & the insides of a BD30. Not a bad combo imo.

You have to factor in, though, even if the very very rare occasion that the tray on the BD30 breaks out of warranty you'd be able to buy a brand new BD50 by then and still have paid less than you would have for the Denon. If the Denon was $100-$200 more, maybe it would be worth it for better build. But double the price is a ripoff IMO, you are just paying for look and name.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

You have to factor in, though, even if the very very rare occasion that the tray on the BD30 breaks out of warranty you'd be able to buy a brand new BD50 by then and still have paid less than you would have for the Denon. If the Denon was $100-$200 more, maybe it would be worth it for better build. But double the price is a ripoff IMO, you are just paying for look and name.

No offence to anyone, but when you buy a Denon, you are buying for look & name.

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by Pirate

It’s still misleading, though. These are two different machines with different components. They might be very similar, but they do not physically equal each other. Someone seeing this thread might think Denon was cheating them by rebranding a Panasonic.

I think the argument ensuing is that they do not have different components.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by sub780lime

I think the argument ensuing is that they do not have different components.

Yeah, either they have identical components or the few (if any) components Denon changed had no impact on the final audio/video output. The only difference people can discern after rigorous A/B testing is that the Denon has a sturdier tray and looks cosmetically spiffier. That certainly isn't worth $500 extra in my book - especially when you are managing to lose A/V outputs at the same time!

[Iguana Man]

What outputs are missing in the more expensive Denon?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

What outputs are missing in the more expensive Denon?

Pictures are more effective in this case

PANASONIC DMP-BD30

Video: HDMI (HD), Component (HD), S-Video (SD), Composite (SD)
Audio: HDMI, 5.1 analog, Optical & Coaxial Digital, Stereo Analog