Pros/Cons of PS3 as a Primary Blu-ray Player

[Ruined]

DVD 【アップスケール/ノーマル】 【モスキートNR / 切る】" - Upscale : Normal / Mosquito Noise Reduction: Off
"DVD 【アップスケール/ノーマル】 【モスキートNR / 3】" - DVD Upscale : Normal / Mosquito Noise Reduction: 3
"DVD 【アップスケール/ 2倍】 【モスキートNR / 切る】" - DVD Double Scale / Mosquito Noise Reduction: Off
"DVD 【アップスケール/ 2倍】 【モスキートNR / 3】" - DVD Double Scale / Mosquito Noise Reduction: 3

The comments I've read from PS3 owners on HighDefDigest seem to indicate that the new DVD noise reduction modes on the PS3 are too strong and end up blurring the picture/losing significant detail - and even that DVD upconversion output in general seems signficantly softer with the latest firmware even with NR disabled for some reason.

I think right now under $1000 your best bet for DVD upconversion with BD players is to get one of the standalones that has Source Direct mode and output 480i HDMI to an Onkyo 875 or better REON-based receiver.

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Ruined

The comments I've read from PS3 owners on HighDefDigest seem to indicate that the new DVD noise reduction modes on the PS3 are too strong and end up blurring the picture/losing significant detail - and even that DVD upconversion output in general seems signficantly softer with the latest firmware even with NR disabled for some reason.

You should buy one have see for yourself since you seem so interested.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

You should buy one have see for yourself since you seem so interested.

I strongly considered it and even applied for a Sony card to do so, but in the end since I am not going to play any games on it or use it for its media functions since my XBOX 360 + PC takes care of that, I'd be using it strictly as a Blu-ray player. I stil have around 15-20 XBOX 360 games I haven't even touched yet that I received as gifts or got on a super bargain...

And with that in mind, IMO there are what appears to be superior overall BD players to the PS3 coming out in the next 1-3 months like the BD50 & S550. I want the option to bitstream audio to my DTC-9.8 and I also like the simple interface of standalones. Plus I've always had more luck with hardware players than software players. So, until those newer players come out I'll just stick with my Blu-ray HTPC temporary setup I have going now.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I wouldn't really consider this a PRO because every BD player ever made has given the feature of being able to switch resolutions. Doing so is part of being BD-spec compliant.

Then what's the big deal since you seem to think that any dvd upconversion is trash unless it goes through the Reon chip. And since most people don't have Reon based receivers or hd-xa2's, then we are to assume that upconversion is negligible.

Possibly, but there is no guarantee that will ever happen, so until it does happen it would remain a CON. I would consider it a significant CON because like most BD standalones PS3's upconversion is poor, scoring below even $99 Walmart players in the Secrets of Home Theater DVD upscaling benchmarks. If you have a REON receiver/processor, you can get around this on Sony/Pioneer standalones by choosing the Source Direct resolution output as the crappy upscaler never gets its filthy hands on the original signal and instead it is passed to your processor for superior upconversion I am considering a Sony 350/550 over the Panasonic BD50 due to this, assuming that Panasonic does not incorporate it into the BD50's FW (the BD30 didnt have this option).

Significant? The inconvenience of spending 5 seconds to make the adjustment is a significant CON? Okay, whatever. Frankly, from your judging of the hd-a35, it seems like nothing is satisfactory unless it has Reon stamped on it. I am so tempted to get a Reon based receiver based on your hype, but I am afraid that it will just be pointless, because the dvds I see will still be blurry compared to high def. And then I will have spent all that money for nothing.

[No6PackJoe]

Originally Posted by videoworx

Well, since this is now a discussion about using DVDs in a PS3, I would consider the slot-loading drive a major con. I don't use the PS3 for DVD playback, as it would probably scratch the shit out the discs.

It's a PS3 not an XBOX

[Iguana Man]

And here we go again.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Then what's the big deal since you seem to think that any dvd upconversion is trash unless it goes through the Reon chip. And since most people don't have Reon based receivers or hd-xa2's, then we are to assume that upconversion is negligible.

Well, if you look at the various DVD deinterlacing benchmarks you'll find that most upconverting units do pretty horribly compared to Reon/Realta chips and the new ABT chip in the Oppo 983H. From my own real-world tests there was a huge difference in the quality output of Reon vs. non-Reon with standard DVDs using the deinterlacing on three pieces I compared (Sony KDS60A3000, HD-A35, DTC-9.8). When I got the BD30, that had even worse performance than my HDTV and the HD-A35.

Significant? The inconvenience of spending 5 seconds to make the adjustment is a significant CON? Okay, whatever. Frankly, from your judging of the hd-a35, it seems like nothing is satisfactory unless it has Reon stamped on it. I am so tempted to get a Reon based receiver based on your hype, but I am afraid that it will just be pointless, because the dvds I see will still be blurry compared to high def. And then I will have spent all that money for nothing.

I don't know about you but in my setup I like to have a "set-it and forget it" configuration so that I don't have to twiddle in the player setup menu before every other movie I watch. This is one reason I am considering the S550 over the BD50, assuming that the former is able to match the latter in speed. Also remember that not only DVDs need to be deinterlaced, but also many concert and nature BDs. There are ~10 popular BDs I can think of that are encoded in 1080i.

The reason there is so much Reon hype is because some DVDs that we thought were just shitty looking actually look pretty good with the Reon. It basically is able to rectify many of the issues caused by flagging and other issues we see with DVDs and hence give a much nicer output. While the DVDs don't look as good as a BD, many movies are not even out on BD and may never be out on BD - plus a Reon-based processor will work with any material, not just interlaced DVDs/BDs. So I see it as a good investment, as it means you might not have to sell off that DVD for a BD equivalent if the Reon upscale looks nearly as good as the BD (probably the case with some movies with mediocre source elements).

Anyway, this is definitely a CON for the PS3, but it may not be a CON relevant to the OP if he does not have and does not plan to get a Reon-based receiver/processor.

[biglyle]

It would sure be nice if these types of threads only contained first hand user info, and not cut and paste stuff from AVS. Unless you have owned and used a unit for a period of time there is no way you can offer an accurate description of its pros and cons.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by biglyle

It would sure be nice if these types of threads only contained first hand user info, and not cut and paste stuff from AVS. Unless you have owned and used a unit for a period of time there is no way you can offer an accurate description of its pros and cons.

In Ruined's defense, he does actually own a Reon-based receiver, and so he is able to make that comparision with the hd-dvd players. So he can make a judgment based on that. However, his speculation on the panasonic and sony players are based on their specs only. I guess I need to find someone who has either the hd-xa2 or a Reon chip receiver for me to see this supposed upgrade of dvds in action. I really question the upgrade that will be offered. I know there is an upgrade in quality from seeing movies via hdmi, but I don't see the upgrade as much in comparison with high def. Granted, the dvds look better than on a normal player, but I just don't see how the Reon will make them look like HD.

His comments on the ps3 are purely based on others' writings and not on his own observations.

[Astrakan]

I added the "Source Direct" comment to "Other Thoughts" as I don't know how relevant it is to most people.

KM

[Sehnzeleid]

A/V Watch: RandomTracking: The future of PS3

* Apparently movie studios are satisfied with BD-Live functions in PS3. Its processing speed / graphics rendering is much faster than dedicated players and the performance gap won't get narrower soon. Even among current BD-Java titles, some are doing performance profiling in a loading screen and show richer effects on PS3. Such differentiation by player performance may happen for BD-Live too. It is not something special only for PS3, it's in the spec of the BD format.
* 2.20 has neither Managed Copy (w/ transcoding) nor Portable Copy (w/o transcoding, demoed at CES) implemented.
* In-game XMB is one of the features discussed at SCE, but they can't comment on the date and so on yet. Though some of the XMB functions are already available in-game by an update, not many games support them yet.
* To licensee developers, it was announced that 2.20 could reduce system memory resource usage a lot.
* The web browser runs faster and has better streaming support than before. Though they can't comment on which particular service they'll support at this point, it will be improved further.
* Though it's technically possible that PS3 charges fees for certain updates, they continue free updates as the basic concept of PS3 is a hardware that evolves with updates.
* Optical discs and media files (including DLNA) are played back through 2 different paths in PS3. Functions such as noise reduction are first implemented in the optical disc player, then some of them are applied to the media player. While an optical disc player only requires an implementation in the range of an official spec, a media player needs a different know-how or sometimes a new algorithm to support files authored by general users with varied encoding settings. The playback quality of AVCHD is currently higher when you open it from a disc or a memory stick than from a file in a folder.
* The main target of mosquito noise reduction is recordings from digital TV. It assumes a use case where a user plays a long MPEG-4 AVC file recorded on a BD. The upconversion in 1.80 was useless for a noisy movie, so noise reduction (not only the specific function of mosquito noise reduction, but also other filters) has been improved in 2.20.
* Though mosquito noise reduction is high on the processing load, the total load is lower than that of the first version of the PS3 BD player or 1.80. In 1.80, it was almost full load when upconverting a DVD, but not now due to optimization. Currently it doesn't reach full load unless it plays back 2 AVC streams in Picture-in-Picture while running high-load BD-Java.
* As for 1080 deinterlacing and DTS-HD MA, "please look forward to them."
* The LTH support took time since they had to test it with a LTH disc recorded with a Sony BD recorder.
* The update schedule is not different from before, basically a large update is once in a quarter. However the next update may be soon because of the PS Store.
* It's recommended to update a PS3 since BD titles with new encryption keys start to appear. Though 1.80 already has the latest key, image quality in the latest firmware is a lot better. An updater for PS3 is also contained in some movie titles. The Blu-ray version of Resident Evil 3 has a 2.10 updater.

[ganthc]

* As for 1080 deinterlacing and DTS-HD MA, "please look forward to them."

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

However, his speculation on the panasonic and sony players are based on their specs only.

I owned the Panasonic BD30 for a bit over 3 weeks and the BD50 will have the same video processing chip for upconverting according to Panasonic (Uniphier). The BD30 was terrible at upconverting, and it did not support native 480i output over HDMI for DVDs. On top of that the BD30 seemed to freak out when bitstreaming HD codecs whenever the Reon chip was enabled in the DTC-9.8. This made it a hassle to even attempt to use my DTC-9.8's upconverting capabilities with the BD30. The HD-A35 which I also owned did a fine job in upscaling but balked at deinterlacing. So it was not so bad as I could "set it and forget it" at 1080i and let the Reon finish the upconversion job properly.

I have not owned any Sony BD players however the previous Sony S300/S500 players did have native 480i output over HDMI for DVDs, so their reported similarly terrible upconverting could at least be bypassed by default... Assuming they don't go backwards in features, I should be able to use my DTC-9.8's Reon with the S350/S550 without a hassle. That gives them an edge over the BD50 in my book, so every day Panasonic doesn't have the BD50 on shelves is a day less in between the launch of the BD50 and S550. Note that the S350/S550's upconverting will likely be no prize as they use the same upscaling chip that the Samsung 1400 uses, so the default 480i output for DVD is welcome.

[Derb]

As for 1080 deinterlacing and DTS-HD MA, "please look forward to them."

edit Sehnzeleid, Crap, beat me to it!



I don't use the PS3 for DVD playback but if that is your #1 reason for buying into Blu-Ray, than maybe wait.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I owned the Panasonic BD30 for a bit over 3 weeks and the BD50 will have the same video processing chip for upconverting according to Panasonic (Uniphier). The BD30 was terrible at upconverting, and it did not support native 480i output over HDMI for DVDs. On top of that the BD30 seemed to freak out when bitstreaming HD codecs whenever the Reon chip was enabled in the DTC-9.8. This made it a hassle to even attempt to use my DTC-9.8's upconverting capabilities with the BD30. The HD-A35 which I also owned did a fine job in upscaling but balked at deinterlacing. So it was not so bad as I could "set it and forget it" at 1080i and let the Reon finish the upconversion job properly.

Yes, that's true. But you are basing your judgment on those future players based on specs. It's hard to say how much different the bd50 will be over the bd30, but it seems now that the 50 may not be the answer to everything, unless they have a firmware ready upon purchase to fix the problem. It's possible that they might.

I have not owned any Sony BD players however the previous Sony S300/S500 players did have native 480i output over HDMI for DVDs, so their reported similarly terrible upconverting could at least be bypassed by default... Assuming they don't go backwards in features, I should be able to use my DTC-9.8's Reon with the S350/S550 without a hassle. That gives them an edge over the BD50 in my book, so every day Panasonic doesn't have the BD50 on shelves is a day less in between the launch of the BD50 and S550. Note that the S350/S550's upconverting will likely be no prize as they use the same upscaling chip that the Samsung 1400 uses, so the default 480i output for DVD is welcome.

There may be no other difference though between the bd50 and the s550, right? Except maybe a slight difference in price?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yes, that's true. But you are basing your judgment on those future players based on specs. It's hard to say how much different the bd50 will be over the bd30, but it seems now that the 50 may not be the answer to everything, unless they have a firmware ready upon purchase to fix the problem. It's possible that they might.

Well, assuming all goes well I will still recommend the BD50 as a great player as my situation is somewhat unique. Most people don't have an external processor/Reon chip, so for those people the 480i DVD thing won't apply. Unless of course they plan to upgrade to one in the future, in which case I'd say wait for the S550.

There may be no other difference though between the bd50 and the s550, right? Except maybe a slight difference in price?

Dunno, we will know more when the S350 comes out. The S300/S500 were ass-slow compared to the BD30, and if the tradition continues with the S350 you can expect the S550 to follow suit. That is the primary area of concern, whether Pioneer/Sony was able to up the speed to match or beat Panasonic. If they can't even come close, then I'd easily take the BD50 over the S550.

That aside, the S550 has a USB slot for storage while the BD50 has an SDHC slot. The S550's USB port is arguably more useful for BD as it could enable things in the future for BD-Live such as keyboard or better yet headset support for chatting during Community Screening BD-Live features. The SDHC slot on the Panasonic is good, too, as it allows for easy playback from AVCHD camcorders and also Divx files on SD cards. If I had to take one, I'd take the USB as again the primary use here will be for BD. Also, the S550 has analog 7.1 out compared to BD50's analog 5.1. Not a huge area of concern for most, but again for select people it might matter.

Also, the MSRP on the S550 looks like it will be $100 less than the BD50. The main thing working against the S550 is that it comes out 3 months after the BD50. But, i can play BD now via my temp HTPC setup and I plan to keep the next standalone I buy for at least 2 years. So another 3 months isn't going to kill me if the product works better overall in my particular setup.

[Ruined]

Question.

I've heard many bragging of PS3's fast speeds with BD-J discs and hence I thought we were talking like 15-20 seconds to load discs like Rataouille. However, on AVSFORUM someone commented today that Ratatouille took ~60secs to load on the PS3. Is this accurate? If so, the PS3 isn't much if any faster than a BD30 (which also loads less intensive discs in less than 20secs). Again, I've used a PS3 but haven't done extensive tests with it. I've been finding unless I do those tests myself I often don't get the real story (see HD-A35 example :p)

Its also worth noting for this topic that I'm noticing quite a few comments on highdefdigest recently with people saying stuff like "I had a PS3 and replaced it with a BD30, the BD30 is a much better player", others like "I couldn't take the noise of the PS3" etc... I don't understand how this works with other people claiming the PS3 is the best thing since sliced bread that no standalones approach and that it is silent in operation, etc - the comments seem on completely different ends of the spectrum. Could it be that people were simply comparing the PS3 to the earlier BD1.0 standalones (aka slow as shit players) and haven't compared it to a BD30? Are some overenthusiastic about the PS3? We are talking longtime posters here who claim extended use with both the PS3 and BD30, not trolls or post-n'-run fanboys.

With a thread like this we should have real info...

So, PS3 owners how about it. Care to benchmark a few discs? I could set up some criteria and we could compare real PS3 loadtimes to standalones. I'm sure someone on the forum still has a BD30 to test with and I know others have the sharp player, etc.

Some examples could be:

1. Time from Power On to "idle" state (not tray opening, as a player could easily open tray without being ready to begin loading the disc) - from "OFF" state.

2. Time from Power On to "idle" state (not tray opening, as a player could easily open tray without being ready to begin loading the disc) - from "Standby" state if player has one.

3. Time from tray close to first screen of disc "X".

4. Time from first BD-J loading screen to menu appearing of disc "X"

5. Time from pressing POWER to player powering done.

Tests 3 and 4 can be done with a selection of various simple discs to ones with more complex stuff like BD-J, BD+, etc. What do you say? Lets get some hard data and see how big the difference is.

[videoworx]

It would be fun to see if there's an actual difference between a 40GB PS3 model, and an earlier 20/60 GB model.

[biglyle]

I have the 40 gig and will test ratouille tonight.

When you say load times do you mean from the second the drawer closes till I get some playback of any sort. Or once I press play till the movie starts?

I need to know exactly what and when I am timing.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by biglyle

IWhen you say load times do you mean from the second the drawer closes till I get some playback of any sort. Or once I press play till the movie starts?

I need to know exactly what and when I am timing.

#1 through #5 in my above list would be cool, with Rat and a couple of other more intensive movies, such as another BD-J heavy titles and a Fox BD+ title.

Here are two I did for my PC & rat:
Pros/Cons of PS3 as a Primary Blu-ray Player

[ganthc]

I would also suggest doing each test 5 times. That way you can gauge if all the times are normalized. Also, we need to have a list of movies that would be the data sample for your experiment. I am open for testing the ps3's performance.

When I compare the ps3, it is to the hd-dvd players I have. The ps3 is not as fast as a regular dvd player, but it's not drastically slower than it either. My ps3 is whisper quiet, and I think we've already explained that one because of different manufacturers of fans, etc. I haven't played Ratatouille, but I would be open to testing it. I know that "War" didn't take longer than 20 seconds. I didn't test the performance of the features themselves, because I wasn't really interested in them. But I could go back and test those as well.

[Ruined]

Here is a fun one.

Ruined's PC:

Rataouille:

3. Tray close to first video, 27 seconds. (nvidia 163.xx drivers)
3b. Tray closed, Play pressed to first video, 16 seconds. (nvidia 163.xx drivers)
4. Appearance of first BD-J loading screen (rat hula) to menu appearance, 6 seconds.

[videoworx]

Let's make sure the PS3 is running 2.20 as well.

[biglyle]

Ok, heres what I got. PS3 is the 40gig model and is updated with the latest f