Blu-Ray vs. DVD: The New Format War?

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by pizza

I would consider it a win for Blu-ray if does as well as LD. Yes, it's a dead format but it hung around for a long, long time. I remember buying my first LD player around 1980 and was buying discs for the next two decades. I wish HD DVD had lasted half that long!

i think your forgetting the studio's and ce's don't want the next laserdisc.
the push will start soon.bd is getting cheaper.the new players at walmart is something they can put on sale from time to time.298.00 is a far cry from 2years ago when bd was a 1000.00 for a player.
and the movies: to buy movies at a b&m store right now is just stupid.
when sd dvd came out back in the day the internet was the answer to get movies cheap and so is the case with bd.shop around people ,you don't have to pay 39.00 bucks for a movie like cloverfield when you can get it at amazon for 19.00+shipping.lets stop with bd needs to be cheaper stuff,shop around theres good deals out there.one more thing lets stop with jp6 doesn't want bd stuff.jp6 is no different then you &me,if they really want a bd player they do what most people do ...whip out the credit card!

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by ganthc

I don't think you fall into Dave's category. Dave is against blu-ray and Sony because he feels the tech is moving too fast and doesn't want to feel forced to buy a new receiver and player. You, on the other hand, do embrace new technology as your multiple hd-dvd players will confirm. Your problem is that your format didn't win, so you have abandoned high definition in total as a protest. For the most part, the DRM that was on hd-dvd is on blu-ray (with the exception of Fox titles), and both were cracked. So I don't really buy the DRM argument that much. Even if you are anti-bd+, it could just mean you don't buy Fox titles.

Except, it is part of the format, an in the players...so ANY of the studios can use it...at their discression.

Instead, you abandon highdef on disc in general, except for the hd-dvds you still own and watch.

Maybe when prices come down, you will come aboard and start watching films in highdef again...or maybe it will take some better titles coming out. At any rate, DRM isn't going anywhere for quite a while. There is actually DRM on those DVDs you buy too.

But, that DRM doesn't allow a studio to run native code on my machine. HD DVD NEVER had anything like BD+, nor did it have region coding.

I have NEVER been interested in Boogtlegging. I have never wanted to copy movies. My plan is to load all my movies onto a server for viewing in MY OWN home. If this is a problem the studios have, then they don't want my money. And, the DRM is NOT the only problem I have, but since you don't believe I have a case, you chose to ignore that.

j

[videoworx]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

My plan is to load all my movies onto a server for viewing in MY OWN home. If this is a problem the studios have, then they don't want my money.

How many DVDs have you purchased? How many HD-DVDs have you purchased? None allow you to copy them to a server. Using DRM as an excuse to not buy into Blu-Ray is hypocritical, at best.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

Except, it is part of the format, an in the players...so ANY of the studios can use it...at their discression.
But, that DRM doesn't allow a studio to run native code on my machine. HD DVD NEVER had anything like BD+, nor did it have region coding.

In which case, you could stop buying the titles that have it. If a Disney or Sony title had bd+ on it, there would be news about that. And as long as your player is not your computer, then any native code run on the machine is meaningless anyways, unless you are putting bootleg bds or dvds in your player that might carry viruses of some sort. For anyone that is using their players to play bd movies they have purchased or rented, bd+ is not a problem.

DVDs have region coding, so blu-ray is doing nothing different than dvd is currently doing.

I have NEVER been interested in Boogtlegging. I have never wanted to copy movies. My plan is to load all my movies onto a server for viewing in MY OWN home. If this is a problem the studios have, then they don't want my money. And, the DRM is NOT the only problem I have, but since you don't believe I have a case, you chose to ignore that.

j

Well, the other problems you listed were not as valid as your DRM argument. All blu-ray studios (except Warner and Paramount) are using lossless audio. There is a continued hope that Warner and Paramount will convert over to using lossless only (Paramount seems to be doing so, slowly but surely). And with regard to a standard, Blu-ray happens to have 3 of them, called profiles. You can choose which standard you want.

No one is saying you HAVE to join blu-ray, but maybe your reasons for not joining seem disingenous considering all of them were employed by hd-dvd and dvd, and yet you supported them without question.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by videoworx

How many DVDs have you purchased? How many HD-DVDs have you purchased? None allow you to copy them to a server. Using DRM as an excuse to not buy into Blu-Ray is hypocritical, at best.

But isn't putting your collection on a server moments away in this fast advancing tecno world? Downloads anyone? Doesn't that all point to wanting it all on one hard drive?

Isn't the future going that way? Maybe I'm wrong and I'll be the last mo-fo to do it, but....

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

But isn't putting your collection on a server moments away in this fast advancing tecno world? Downloads anyone? Doesn't that all point to wanting it all on one hard drive?

Isn't the future going that way? Maybe I'm wrong and I'll be the last mo-fo to do it, but....

What videoworx is saying is that DVD and hd-dvd did not legally allow you to copy the content to servers...you know, kinda like how blu-ray doesn't allow you to. J was stating that this was a reason that he was against blu-ray. It seems contradictory for him to rail against blu-ray for not allowing something that was never allowed by dvd and hd-dvd, both formats he has championed.

As far as where the future is going, I still argue that we are much further awa from that type of setup than many would like to think. No one has the bandwidth to download lots of high def movies to their computers, and no one really has the space to store all these movies for ownership purposes. It could be that there will be this setup, but I think it's still 10 years from now before the infrastructure is there to handle it. Unless things go to a setup that Ruined suggested, which is corporate held servers will store all the movies and you pay a fee for everytime you want to watch them.

[Iguana Man]

Am I allowed to make a backup of my purchased Disc?

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by ganthc

In which case, you could stop buying the titles that have it. If a Disney or Sony title had bd+ on it, there would be news about that. And as long as your player is not your computer, then any native code run on the machine is meaningless anyways, unless you are putting bootleg bds or dvds in your player that might carry viruses of some sort. For anyone that is using their players to play bd movies they have purchased or rented, bd+ is not a problem.

Lets look at a worst case senario. Sine ALL Blu Ray machies have BD+ AC encoded in the hardware, ANY studio that wants to, can run native code on your machine. Using pure conjecture, what happens when a studio decides that the license agreement states no where that you can view the content on any Blu Ray disc player, and sends out a code on the next, and all subsequent discs that lock that disc to the machines S/N. Thus, requiring you to buy a disc for each player you own. This has been the desire for home video since home video came about in the late 70s. So, by the time this is done, People like Videoworx, and you ganthc, with your apathy, will have nothing more to say, than it's doesn't bother me, I'm not affected...I only have one Blu Ray player anyway I realize this is wild speculation, but so was BD+ 5 years ago.

DVDs have region coding, so blu-ray is doing nothing different than dvd is currently doing.

Except, there was an alternative, and I am now (and was before) against Region coding. Before, I had no alternative. You may say that now, but that implies that I have to buy into Blu Ray.

Well, the other problems you listed were not as valid as your DRM argument.

And why not? To me, they are JUST as valid.

And with regard to a standard, Blu-ray happens to have 3 of them, called profiles. You can choose which standard you want.

So, you are equating "profiles" equal to the difference to chosing a DVD player with, or without upscaling/SACD/DVD-A capability? That is a reach, but I guess if that is how you want to see it...

No one is saying you HAVE to join blu-ray, but maybe your reasons for not joining seem disingenous considering all of them were employed by hd-dvd and dvd, and yet you supported them without question.

What part of BD+, or Profiles are used by DVD? Had I known that Disney could run code on my DVD player, I never would have bought one.

Originally Posted by videoworx

How many DVDs have you purchased? How many HD-DVDs have you purchased? None allow you to copy them to a server. Using DRM as an excuse to not buy into Blu-Ray is hypocritical, at best.

And as such, the software that I use, allows that, but NOTHING about DVD, or HD DVD for that matter, will allow ANYONE but me to change my video server, without my knowledge, or consent. Most of your posts concerning HD-DVD are nothing more than veiled attacks at users that prefer HD-DVD. I've pretty much written off anything you have to say to blind support of your chosen format and ignore most of what you say. This time, you chose to attack me. It's not going to happen again.

Originally Posted by ganthc

What videoworx is saying is that DVD and hd-dvd did not legally allow you to copy the content to servers...you know, kinda like how blu-ray doesn't allow you to. J was stating that this was a reason that he was against blu-ray. It seems contradictory for him to rail against blu-ray for not allowing something that was never allowed by dvd and hd-dvd, both formats he has championed.

ONE reason. Again, you decide to ignore my other reasons, so what do we do now? You don't want to acknowledge that I have legitimate reasons for NOT wanting to adopt Blu Ray. That is fine, as you don't have to care that anyone has a differing opinion.

As far as where the future is going, I still argue that we are much further awa from that type of setup than many would like to think. No one has the bandwidth to download lots of high def movies to their computers, and no one really has the space to store all these movies for ownership purposes. It could be that there will be this setup, but I think it's still 10 years from now before the infrastructure is there to handle it. Unless things go to a setup that Ruined suggested, which is corporate held servers will store all the movies and you pay a fee for everytime you want to watch them.

I would not be surprised if that is the case, and that new development is further along than we know. I am looking foreward to the MUCH higher speed internet within the next few quarters, not years.

j

[videoworx]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

Most of your posts concerning HD-DVD are nothing more than veiled attacks at users that prefer HD-DVD. I've pretty much written off anything you have to say to blind support of your chosen format and ignore most of what you say. This time, you chose to attack me. It's not going to happen again.

Holy shit, dude. I pointed out a flaw in your logic, and you accuse me of attacking members here (thereby attacking me in the process). That's not only unwarranted, it's ridiculous - especially from a moderator of this forum.

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by videoworx

Holy shit, dude. I pointed out a flaw in your logic, and you accuse me of attacking members here (thereby attacking me in the process). That's not only unwarranted, it's ridiculous - especially from a moderator of this forum.

If saying that someone is "at best" a hypocrit isn't an attack, it's at least very close to one.

As for how you treat other members, I can't say I recall specific attacks or anything, but overall your posts on the topic of Blu-ray vs. HD DVD do have a tinge of belittling to them. At least that's how it seems to me. Not trying to give you grief about it, just thought I'd point out how your posting style come across since you seem unaware.

KM

[videoworx]

As for how you treat other members, I can't say I recall specific attacks or anything

Neither can I, which is why it was uncalled for. I don't belittle members, I simply point out factual mistakes when I see them. As I've never received a negative IM from a mod regarding my posting behaviour, I can only assume nobody has ever take offense to anything I've posted.
In fact, I've received nothing but praise, from several members and mods (including Taxi), for my attitude and contribution to this forum.

BTW, pointing out a statement as being hypocritical is not a personal attack. If you think I made mistake in my assumption, call me out. I stand by my statement. If you don't support Blu-Ray because of DRM, yet have invested in, or support, any other format that uses DRM, what would you call that behaviour?

[No6PackJoe]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

I am a technogeek of monumental proportions, and I fall into Daves catagory. Search the forum, you will see why I am not interested in Blu Ray.

It has been suggested I should just shut up and fall in line, but while HDM looks great, I am quite pleased with upconverted DVD on a nice upcon player. I also like how much better my LDs look since I got my VP50 Pro. Blu Ray, IMHO is NOT the end all, be all of Home Theater. Am I just bitter? Some could say that, and it could be quite true. I just fail to see why I should buy a flawed tech is all. Over intrusive DRM, failure to mandate a standard, acceptable use of old codecs...yes,a flawed format.

The problem, as I see it, the move industry is the only industry that expects their custome to bow to it's will. Industry is there to serve the cusumer, not the other way arround. IMHO, it's time for the consumer to put Hollywood in it's place. I'm sending my message with my wallet.

j

you have valid points, and if my wife didn't buy me a ps3 I would still be out, I have a very large DVD collection which I have no intention of replacing with blu-ray, and so far have only bought a few and I have watched 1080p on some of the best techno-gear (Christie Digital Projectors)
and had to strip the copy protection just play a demo from a laptop. We have been struggling with DRM in our high end setups, most still don't support HDCP, and the BD+ just makes it worse.

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by videoworx

How many DVDs have you purchased? How many HD-DVDs have you purchased? None allow you to copy them to a server. Using DRM as an excuse to not buy into Blu-Ray is hypocritical, at best.

We will start with this little gem. Calling someone hypocritical when you don't seem to either understand, or care, about their reasoning is an attack on the poster, in this case me. You are calling ME, not my reasoning out.

Then we have this from the T/OT forum.

Originally Posted by videoworx

Ah, so it was just all the returned/stockpiled HD-DVDs.

which contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Next we have this:

It's one thing to fight for your rights. It's another to use tabloid tactics and make shit up.

The fact is NOBODY here has been affected by any of the DRM found on Blu-Ray. You don't know if studios will ever fully utilize AACS Online beyond a marketing standpoint. Had you titled this thread "AACS Online - Studios may intend to watch your viewing behaviour", you may have received a lot less crap about it.

Talking about Ruined and his post about AACS online. You boldly state that no one has been affected by Blu Rays DRM, yet you forget that the first titles that came with BD+ had issues that had to be resolved. So, while it may be a small example, it is an example none the less that you were wrong. It also shows you have a history of attacking other members. Usually those that supported HD DVD.

Here is another shining example of you calling out Ruined.

Ruined, do you really get a kick out ruining every thread you post in?

Even after it was posted to STOP the bickering.
This from a few months ago:

Originally Posted by videoworx

Agreed. If you're at the point where upconverting DVDs sounds like a great alternative to native HD, then you're clearly not thinking straight.

I guess if it is me or Ruined, the personal attacks are ok. Well, I'm telling you, no, it's not, and it IS going to stop.

j

[videoworx]

With the first example, we'll have to agree to disagree.

The second example was clearly a joke, especially after Derb posted his (and as a mod hadn't said anything between the two posts, you can't suggest otherwise).

The third example is pretty clear. Ruined uses hyperbole in his topic titles that rarely have anything to do with the factual content of the articles he links to. This is fact, not an attack or an opinion, and one backed up by many members here.
The DRM issues with BD+ were resolved with firmware upgrades, and affected a very small percentage of Blu-Ray owners. The problem was far less severe than issues present with the DVD format in 1998 and 1999, when there were no firmware upgrade solutions.

The fourth and fifth example are purely peronal opinions, which I can back up with plenty of evidence. I was not IMed by any moderator at the time, and I don't feel I violated any of the forum rules.

Attacking other members here is not OK, and it's a rule I've followed since the day I joined this forum 6+ years ago.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

Lets look at a worst case senario. Sine ALL Blu Ray machies have BD+ AC encoded in the hardware, ANY studio that wants to, can run native code on your machine. Using pure conjecture, what happens when a studio decides that the license agreement states no where that you can view the content on any Blu Ray disc player, and sends out a code on the next, and all subsequent discs that lock that disc to the machines S/N. Thus, requiring you to buy a disc for each player you own. This has been the desire for home video since home video came about in the late 70s. So, by the time this is done, People like Videoworx, and you ganthc, with your apathy, will have nothing more to say, than it's doesn't bother me, I'm not affected...I only have one Blu Ray player anyway I realize this is wild speculation, but so was BD+ 5 years ago.

And worst case scenario a meteor could strike us. Conjuring up doomsday scenarios for bd+ doesn't make sense to me. The studios are in the business of selling discs. If you really think that their mindset is to make you pay for movies on a per player basis, that is far fetched in my opinion. They will simply try to do the same thing that has been done with dvd, try to stop piracy. It's not an attempt to fleece their customer base with bizarre conditions of one player - one disc. The purpose for bd+ is to prevent copying and the proliferation of pirated movies by trying to have a security measure that prevents the playing of illegal movies. As we've seen, bd+ hasn't even lasted a year before it was cracked. But the real fear and threat is not to consumers that play valid bd's in their player. The threat is to people who have invalid discs that put it in their players. Those are the only consumers who have to fear about bricked players.

Except, there was an alternative, and I am now (and was before) against Region coding. Before, I had no alternative. You may say that now, but that implies that I have to buy into Blu Ray.

So, you are equating "profiles" equal to the difference to chosing a DVD player with, or without upscaling/SACD/DVD-A capability? That is a reach, but I guess if that is how you want to see it...

But one again, you have no alternative. You have dvd which is region coded, and you have blu-ray, which is region coded. Region coding is not a differentiator when deciding between dvd and blu-ray.

What part of BD+, or Profiles are used by DVD? Had I known that Disney could run code on my DVD player, I never would have bought one.

j

You have listed three "stated" reasons why you oppose blu-ray:

1. DRM
2. Region coding
3. Differing profiles

In two of the three cases, there has been arguments stating why they aren't even reasons to not drop dvd and move to blu-ray. In the case of profiles, we have the latest profile out there for purchase. If the price is too high, then fine, there is a reason there. But considering how many hd-dvd players you scooped up before they went out of stock, I don't think price is really the issue here. BD+ is not going to brick your player if you are watching legally purchased/rented blu-ray discs. For upscaling, it's not really an issue for you, because you already have hd-dvd players that can do that for you, if you don't like the bd player's upconversion.

If bd+ really is the sole reason you won't get on to blu-ray, then fine. But to me, it seems like a negligible thing as long as you are obeying the law when watching movies, and you aren't watching movies via a computer. If you want to keep fighting the war against drm, that's fine too. But you obviously have ceded the drm war on the dvd side, as you keep purchasing those movies...and you bought hd-dvds which also had drm. My hope is that one day that you decide to start enjoying films in high def once again, but I guess we'll see.

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by ganthc

And worst case scenario a meteor could strike us. Conjuring up doomsday scenarios for bd+ doesn't make sense to me. The studios are in the business of selling discs. If you really think that their mindset is to make you pay for movies on a per player basis, that is far fetched in my opinion. They will simply try to do the same thing that has been done with dvd, try to stop piracy. It's not an attempt to fleece their customer base with bizarre conditions of one player - one disc. The purpose for bd+ is to prevent copying and the proliferation of pirated movies by trying to have a security measure that prevents the playing of illegal movies. As we've seen, bd+ hasn't even lasted a year before it was cracked. But the real fear and threat is not to consumers that play valid bd's in their player. The threat is to people who have invalid discs that put it in their players. Those are the only consumers who have to fear about bricked players.

And the assumption by the studios that I am going to pirate movies has pushed me to the point I will not invest in Blu Ray. Why do you have such a problem with me NOT liking Blu Ray? I could not care any less that you had such luke warm support for HD DVD. You don't care if you are screwed over by the studios, I do.

But one again, you have no alternative. You have dvd which is region coded, and you have blu-ray, which is region coded. Region coding is not a differentiator when deciding between dvd and blu-ray.

Except, I have hundreds of DVDs and several players that work. No need for a new format there, right? I also have a GREAT alternative...Saying NO to Blu Ray.

You have listed three "stated" reasons why you oppose blu-ray:

1. DRM ( OVER INTRUSIVE DRM, there is a difference )
2. Region coding
3. Differing profiles ( IE: NO SET STANDARD )

In two of the three cases, there has been arguments stating why they aren't even reasons to not drop dvd and move to blu-ray.

Read: You need to just fall in line and buy into Blu Ray!

In the case of profiles, we have the latest profile out there for purchase. If the price is too high, then fine, there is a reason there. But considering how many hd-dvd players you scooped up before they went out of stock, I don't think price is really the issue here.

Funny thing is, I have spent less on HD DVD, than what you think I should spend on a single Blu Ray player, YAY FOR ME!

BD+ is not going to brick your player if you are watching legally purchased/rented blu-ray discs.

BD+ is just beginning to rear it's ugly head. I won't take the chance of getting burned because some asshole decides to copy a slew of Ble Ray discs...oh wait...they allready did.

For upscaling, it's not really an issue for you, because you already have hd-dvd players that can do that for you, if you don't like the bd player's upconversion.

Which is a good thing, since the Blu Ray upconversion in general sucks ass.

If bd+ really is the sole reason you won't get on to blu-ray, then fine. But to me, it seems like a negligible thing as long as you are obeying the law when watching movies, and you aren't watching movies via a computer.

And why is it such a BAD thing for me to want to use a HTPC? Is there some sort of law that says that HTPCs are bad?

If you want to keep fighting the war against drm, that's fine too. But you obviously have ceded the drm war on the dvd side, as you keep purchasing those movies...and you bought hd-dvds which also had drm.

But, they don't have OVERINTRUSIVE DRM. Why is this such a hard concept for you people to undrstand?

My hope is that one day that you decide to start enjoying films in high def once again, but I guess we'll see.

I AM enjoying films in High Def...there is just a limited selection till high def downloads are the norm.

j

[Derb]

I read through most posts here & have not seen any personal attacks on members.

What I am reading from you chlngr1970 is stubbornness or maybe an excuse not to enjoy high-def because it is now only available on the Blu-Ray format.

If so, fine by me. Its your choice as it is others to accept BD or not.

I am personally enjoying watching HD more than ever. More & more independent studios have finally jumped into HD & quality transfers continue to improve both video & audio wise. Blu-Ray.com just cited more than 11 million discs (well 1 million, cause I bought the other 10 ) have been sold. I am slowly being convinced that BD may just be the successor to DVD instead of an LD niche market.

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by videoworx

BTW, pointing out a statement as being hypocritical is not a personal attack. If you think I made mistake in my assumption, call me out. I stand by my statement. If you don't support Blu-Ray because of DRM, yet have invested in, or support, any other format that uses DRM, what would you call that behaviour?

It's more the "at best" part that makes the statement skirt the line.

Besides, not all DRM are the same. Just because someone is of the opinion that one level of DRM is acceptable, that doesn't mean he has to accept all forms of DRM or he's a hypocrit. The whole DRM situation isn't that black or white, it's shades of grey. Apparently chlngr1970 find the DRM in regular DVD to be acceptable while that of Blu-ray crosses the line - a line which will vary from individual to individual.

KM

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Astrakan

It's more the "at best" part that makes the statement skirt the line.

Besides, not all DRM are the same. Just because someone is of the opinion that one level of DRM is acceptable, that doesn't mean he has to accept all forms of DRM or he's a hypocrit. The whole DRM situation isn't that black or white, it's shades of grey. Apparently chlngr1970 find the DRM in regular DVD to be acceptable while that of Blu-ray crosses the line - a line which will vary from individual to individual.

KM

Videoworx's point was that J stated he wanted to put his movies on a server to watch in that fashion. Videoworx pointed out that dvd and hd-dvd does not allow you to do that, so deriding blu-ray for not allowing you to seems a bit out there.

J, I am not saying you should fall in line and watch blu-ray. You can continue to enjoy dvd along with DakotaDave. I think we have both had our sides heard on the issue, so I'll move on. You can do whatever you feel like.