REVIEW: Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-ray Disc Player

[plissken99]

So Ruined, would you go for the upcoming Oppo BD player or the Pioneer BDP-51? I know it's early, but I'm very curious about these two. The Oppo will feature the AB upscaling(which some say even bests the XA2 in upscaling), and be more feature rich, vs the Pio which can make BDs looks better... decisions, decisions.

EDIT: Actually, isn't the color upconversion thing the "deep color" feature? And don't you need a display that can handle "deep color" also?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by plissken99

So Ruined, would you go for the upcoming Oppo BD player or the Pioneer BDP-51? I know it's early, but I'm very curious about these two. The Oppo will feature the AB upscaling(which some say even bests the XA2 in upscaling), and be more feature rich, vs the Pio which can make BDs looks better... decisions, decisions.

EDIT: Actually, isn't the color upconversion thing the "deep color" feature? And don't you need a display that can handle "deep color" also?

Color upconversion needs a deep color display for full benefit, yes. Although the Pioneer also appears to resolve fine detail better with its video decoder than most players which will benefit any type of TV. It also does an excellent job of internal PCM decoding.

As for Oppo vs 51FD, I already have a Reon chip in my preamp so I am not in need of another video processing chip. Running the Pioneer "source direct" to my Onkyo will get me similar results with DVD & 1080i BD. That source direct feature also gives me the ability to use superior upcoming video processing solutions like the DVDO Edge.

Finally, I am impressed with Pioneer's firmware department. They have been able to squash virtually all bugs I have found thus far in a matter of weeks. Chris Walker works closely with forum members to get issues resolved. I'm not sure I would get the same level of support from Oppo, and with the patchwork BD-J quilt, that is pretty important IMO.

So I'd stick with my 51FD decision. If another person does not have a video processing chip and does not plan to ever buy another product that has a good one in it, then it makes the decision more difficult. Although to tell you the truth, the Pioneer's internal processing is actually quite good. Not as good as Reon, but pretty good.

[plissken99]

Well of course I'll wait until the Oppo comes out to pass final judgement, see some reviews and initial user reports. Given Oppo's history I'd be suprised if it doesn't equal the Pioneer in fine detail, or best it even. And it may even have Deep color support as well(which actually means nothing to me since I don't have a display that supports it, and no plans to upgrade in the next 3-5 years). Also given Oppo's history, I'm sure they'll keep up with firmware, their customer support has always been top knotch.

But getting the Oppo(and this is if they stay true to past features) would also mean region free DVD playback(PAL to NTSC included), as well as DIVX support, so I could eliminate the PS3 and the current Oppo, in addition to taking the workload off the XA2(the XA2 is also the only HD DVD player I've had which does not freeze/skip on anything, so it needs to last).


EDIT: Also, on getting external processing... The Integra with the Reon processing onboard is nice, but I would also want a processor that has color adjustments. The only flaw with my RS1 they say is that you can't get correct color from it, an external processor with the necissary adjustments is necissary. So if/when I go for a processor I need one that does that, and is as good or better than Reon in the upscaling dept.

[Astrakan]

Re: Deep Color

Is that the actual feature name? So to find out if a display supports it, you can simply look at the feature set of the display for that term?

KM

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Astrakan

Re: Deep Color

Is that the actual feature name? So to find out if a display supports it, you can simply look at the feature set of the display for that term?

KM

Every HDMI 1.3 display supports it.

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Every HDMI 1.3 display supports it.

Cool. Thanks. Also thanks for your earlier answers earlier in this thread regarding the two different models.

KM

[Ruined]

Just as a brief update, the new 1.17 firmware for this player is amazing. It has cut loadtimes by 25% and fixed 99% of the bugs that were in earlier firmwares.

But even more surprising is the DVD upconversion quality. While it was good when I originally reviewed the player, now it actually is better than my Reon video processor. It matches the Reon in the HQV tests and beats it in some of my real life material. Pretty amazing stuff for a well-built $450 player.

This is turning out to be a really solid player!

[ganthc]

Just curious, how is this possible? I am wondering because you have always said you liked the Pioneer, because it had the pass through feature which would have dvd content go through your processor for better picture. So if you are saying that you are now not going through your processor, and the Pioneer player is delivering a better picture without it having a Reon processor, I have to wonder how it is possible for the player to do so? And if the Pioneer player can do this with a firmware upgrade, could other players?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Just curious, how is this possible? I am wondering because you have always said you liked the Pioneer, because it had the pass through feature which would have dvd content go through your processor for better picture. So if you are saying that you are now not going through your processor, and the Pioneer player is delivering a better picture without it having a Reon processor, I have to wonder how it is possible for the player to do so? And if the Pioneer player can do this with a firmware upgrade, could other players?

The Pioneer 51FD uses an custom SoC & video processing chipset codeveloped between Pioneer and Renesas. So basically Pioneer sat down with an SoC maker and mapped out what they wanted their device to be capable of, specs, etc, and Renesas made a custom chipset for them that no other manuf can buy. This is similar, say, to what Microsoft did with ATI or Sony did with IBM/Toshiba in developing the GPU and CPU respectively of their game consoles.

Now, your question is, how does that process equate to it beating Reon. Well, there are times it often doesn't. For instance, Panasonic's BD30/BD50 was a custom SoC and it was terrible; however now they tweaked the formula with BD35/BD55 and are actually pretty darn good.

Pioneer appears to have put the hardware necessary in the 51FD to do high quality DVD upscaling/deinterlacing at the level of Reon, and their implementation of it in the latest firmware is incredible. Prior to 1.17 the 51FD had decent upscaling, but definitely not Reon quality. Now with their new release they are actually exceeding Reon. They match them in the HQV tests and in my real life torture tests they exceed Reon. Loadtimes decreased by 25% as well. Impressive. Can other manufs do it? It depends on the hardware in the box and the skill of the team writing software for it, that simple; if it is a 3rd party off the shelf SoC the answer is most likely no, however, as the SoC maker usually develops that - and generally those teams do not put high end video processing as a priority.

We know that the BDP-51FD was using a brand new custom SoC chipset as described earlier and my guess is that parts of it were not enabled or simply emulated. Java on the 51FD did not work at full speed until 1.07 firmware, and most of the bugs were not ironed out until 1.12. Now with 1.17 it appears the video processing got a huge boost, so I am guessing some part of the chip that was not complete in software has now been enabled.

Upscaling is very much an artform and IMO Pioneer has nailed it in this latest firmware update, nailed it better that the Reon even. However the passthrough is still a nice feature to have. When video processing gets even more advanced - say Toshiba spurs engine for instance - it is possible quality can be improved even further than what Pioneer has done. So that passthrough is still a very good reason to buy the player if only because the video processing can never essentially be outdated as it is always upgradable.

Still, for 99% of people, the new firmware will beat any processing they own. Again, I am impressed and somewhat shocked - no typical off the shelf SoC nor custom designs have been able to beat Reon, yet Pioneer just did. Good stuff, I hope they continue to make strides with this player. Apparently we will see another major performance boost in December and then DTS-HDMA decoding in January.

[ganthc]

Well, it's good to know that Pioneer is really making the player a competitive entry for blu-ray. I think the price is also very good, and once it does the decoding of dts-hdma, it will probably get more attention. Of course by then, there will probably be a newer and better model.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Well, it's good to know that Pioneer is really making the player a competitive entry for blu-ray. I think the price is also very good, and once it does the decoding of dts-hdma, it will probably get more attention. Of course by then, there will probably be a newer and better model.

Sure, the BDP-09FD. Of course it costs over $2k

The "newer and better" in the 51/05 pricerange won't be out for another 9 months or so... re: dts-hdma decoding, sooner the better though since it bitstreams dts-hdma & given the high quality of dts core its not a huge deal waiting...

I think they've always been "competitive" with the high end crowd - offering much more a/v quality options than sony/panasonic/samsung/lg/etc - but this new upconversion quality makes it an especially great deal that might attract those that usually opt to spend a bit less.

[ganthc]

No, when I mean competitive, I mean that it's not that much of a premium over the Sony and Panasonic players, which is not usually the case. I would say that if it were 2.0 compliant, it would be even more impressive, but it really does sound like a solid player if you are not interested in bd-live stuff, which is kind of lame right now.

[plissken99]

Well this does make things interesting. Still I'll wait for the eventual Oppo to see how it stacks up against it. Afterall it should be region free(for DVD at least).

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by plissken99

Well this does make things interesting. Still I'll wait for the eventual Oppo to see how it stacks up against it. Afterall it should be region free(for DVD at least).

Pio 51fd is region-free with a remote hack and plays back PAL DVDs with no issue, btw.

[plissken99]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Pio 51fd is region-free with a remote hack and plays back PAL DVDs with no issue, btw.

Welp, time to get my friend to pony up the $200 for my PS3, I'm out of reasons to wait on the Oppo!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by plissken99

Welp, time to get my friend to pony up the $200 for my PS3, I'm out of reasons to wait on the Oppo!

At this point with the amazing new SD DVD upconverting on 51FD (I'm still in shock over it) the only thing you'd likely gain from the Oppo is possibly faster loadtimes. However, I don't think its worth waiting 2-3 months and paying $200-$300 more for that - especially since the BD spec will be revised again in 2010 to make way for full color 3D. Plus who knows how well Oppo will deal with continued BD-J issues.

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by Ruined

the only thing you'd likely gain from the Oppo is possibly faster loadtimes.

Region free Blu-ray playback? Or is that completely out of the question? That's my reason for waiting for the Oppo.

KM

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Astrakan

Region free Blu-ray playback? Or is that completely out of the question? That's my reason for waiting for the Oppo.

KM

Hell no, that won't happen without a hardware mod this early in the life of the format IMO. Besides, there is very little regionally coded content that isn't available in region A anyway.

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Besides, there is very little regionally coded content that isn't available in region A anyway.

While that's technically correct, none of the Ragion B titles I want (or will ever want) have been released in Region A, or will likely ever see a release here. So far there's not much, as not too many have been released yet, but what has been released in Region B that I'm interested in is indeed region locked.

KM

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Astrakan

While that's technically correct, none of the Ragion B titles I want (or will ever want) have been released in Region A, or will likely ever see a release here. So far there's not much, as not too many have been released yet, but what has been released in Region B that I'm interested in is indeed region locked.

KM

There is always SlySoft

[Miggy]

I watched the DVD version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy last night with my newly-reconfigured 51. Wow! I coulnd't believe how good the picture was. Reports of the 51's upconversion being near HD quality are no exaggeration.

Miggy, the Thief

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Miggy

Wow! I coulnd't believe how good the picture was. Reports of the 51's upconversion being near HD quality are no exaggeration.

Miggy, the Thief

Diet coke is still diet coke.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Diet coke is still diet coke.

Apparently you haven't tried Coke Zero

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Pio 51fd is region-free with a remote hack and plays back PAL DVDs with no issue, btw.

Would you be so kind as to provide details of this remote hack to enable my BDP-05FD?

Steve

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Apparently you haven't tried Coke Zero

I have. It tastes nothing like the real Coke. I suspect the analogy applies.

[tomdkat]

Great discussion, guys! Thanks for the comments, Ruined. I will make a point of reading them more closely as I have more time.

Man, I miss this place.

Peace...

[Ruined]

Here is the new v1.21 FW:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ep...1FD_Ver121.zip

Fixes some of the DVD menu issues found in the v1.17 DVD engine.

[esc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Pio 51fd is region-free with a remote hack and plays back PAL DVDs with no issue, btw.

Damn, yo! I was considering this player but opted for the ever popular PS3. I'll see how I feel about the PS3 in a year. At $400 - $500 I could not justify getting the 51FD right now.

Basically selling my Samsung for over $300 and then getting a PS3 for $250 was a good deal.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by esc

Damn, yo! I was considering this player but opted for the ever popular PS3. I'll see how I feel about the PS3 in a year. At $400 - $500 I could not justify getting the 51FD right now.

Basically selling my Samsung for over $300 and then getting a PS3 for $250 was a good deal.

PS3 is a good player, but has some serious flaws players like the 51FD (and even cheaper players like the BD35) do not have - PS3 has poor DVD upconversion, PS3 has inability to deinterlace the many 1080i-encoded Blu-ray Discs to 1080p (and most TVs suck ass at 1080i>1080p, meaning your 1080i Blu-ray titles will most likely suffer from quality loss using the PS3), PS3 has inability to bitstream HD codecs, and of course all of the other functionality issues (heat, noise, form factor, no native IR), etc. It still is the fastest player, but to me a lot of the above issues are a lot more important than speed.

Then again, if you want it for PS3 exclusive games its a decent deal. Of course if you asked me I'd easily take an XBOX 360 + Panasonic DMP-BD35 over a PS3 any day of the week.

Also, while you may have gotten the PS3 for $250 using the Sony Card deal, remember every credit card you open can negatively impact your credit rating - which can cost you thousands if you are considering a home mortgage, car purchase, or other big figure loan.

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Also, while you may have gotten the PS3 for $250 using the Sony Card deal, remember every credit card you open can negatively impact your credit rating - which can cost you thousands if you are considering a home mortgage, car purchase, or other big figure loan.

HA! I KNEW IT! Buying Blu Ray will Kill your Credit! That is the REAL reason for the economic Crisis!

Anyway...I have installed a couple of the BD-35 players and they do look good. I've only played with a couple PS3s so far, and I am not really impressed with their performance. I had one that would not put out any video through an older HDMI AVR, and one that would not even output video at all. The last one worked fine. I understand that anything has it's odds, but with my limited experience, that is not good. So far, all the -51FDs and -05FDs have been flawless. IMHO, and investment like this is well worth it.

j

[Bill]

Great review. I have questions....

My primary display is a 40" Sony XBR Trinitron (a 4x3 CRT/Tube dinosaur). It supports 480p and 1080i over component video cables. I saw you said the Elite model BDP-05FD was almost identical to the one you reviewed but with better quality DACs for the component video. According to the store I was talking to, I would have to use the elite model anyway because I need audio over HDMI but video over component video.

SO - my questions are really about the Elite BDP-05FD.

Currently, I'm using a PS3 for blu-ray playback.

Will I notice any of the wonderful Pioneer improvements for PQ - either in blu-ray playback or in SD DVD playback? Or will these improvements be lost on my component-video-driven 1080i display?

Assuming the Elite BDP-05FD drops in price some more when the next models come out, I'm considering buying one to go next to the PS3, not to replace it. But it's only worthwhile doing - for me - if there is a visible PQ improvement.

I watch blu-ray movies, DVD movies, and many, many DVD TV shows (and many of those shows are full screen). Will a Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD improve my PQ? And if so, by enough to notice with the naked eye?

Thanks,
Bill

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by Bill

Great review. I have questions....

Will I notice any of the wonderful Pioneer improvements for PQ - either in blu-ray playback or in SD DVD playback? Or will these improvements be lost on my component-video-driven 1080i display?

You SHOULD notice an inprovement in PQ over DVD with Blu Ray titles. DVD does not upconvert over component. It's against the DVD Forums rules

Assuming the Elite BDP-05FD drops in price some more when the next models come out, I'm considering buying one to go next to the PS3, not to replace it. But it's only worthwhile doing - for me - if there is a visible PQ improvement.

I watch blu-ray movies, DVD movies, and many, many DVD TV shows (and many of those shows are full screen). Will a Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD improve my PQ? And if so, by enough to notice with the naked eye?

Thanks,
Bill

Unfortunately, I have not done any side by side compairsons of the two. I can only tell you that the Pioneer seems to perform much better in my experience. Will you see a difference on a tube TV? Will you be poised to have a much better experience if you step up to a Plasma or LCD? Definately. Keeping the PS3 as well as a dedicated BR player is a good idea just to keep the movie playback time off the PS3 laser. Then you can be sure the PS3 will last longer for game play.

j

[Bill]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

DVD does not upconvert over component. It's against the DVD Forums rules

Will you be poised to have a much better experience if you step up to a Plasma or LCD? Definately.

Step up to a Plasma or LCD? Grumble. I'm still not convinced that Plasma or LDC *are* a step up from CRT. And maybe never will be now that Pioneer is leaving the Plasma business.

(stepping up on soapbox)

I was planning to hold out for Laser TVs (they're always "just around the corner"). Now I understand Laser TVs have fantastic color, but have the same off-angle viewing problems of all rear-projections. I'm still looking for a new display technology with quality contrast and black levels, all-angle-viewing, no resolution degradation caused from fast moving pictures, AND great PQ for SD content (such as years and years of TV shows that only exist in SD on DVD and will probably never be re-released as blu-ray since the show content is SD to begin with). Which new display technology has all those things that I get currently from my old, clunky CRTs?

(getting down from soapbox)

OK - no upconverting DVDs at 1080i across component video. I should have remembered that. I think I knew it once.

How about my secondary TV? It's a Sony KD-34XBR960. That's 34", widescreen (but still a CRT), uses HDMI for video, and supports 480p, 720p, and 1080i.

With that display - comparing the Elite Pioneer BDP-05FD blu-ray player to my existing PS3 - will I see better PQ for:

- blu-ray playback?
- upconverted DVD playback? (Or am I still locked out of upconverting DVDs since I can't do 1080p?)
- fullscreen 4x3 SD content (that is - many older TV shows)?

After hearing about how the firmware upgrades give this Pioneer player better upscaling and de-interlacing quality than players with Reon chipsets, I'm trying to see if there's any benefit for me with that quality compared to what I currently see from my PS3s.

Thanks for the info,
Bill