New Line is finally going High Def

[SilentBob]

Taken from VideoBusiness.com

I'm at the Home Media Expo this week in Las Vegas, which officially kicks off tomorrow, but got a sluggish start today.

There's surprisingly little on the official agenda this year from Blu-ray and HD DVD backers, strange since they both have so much riding on this fourth quarter, which will really be the first that players are widely available at retail. There are no panels for retailers on either format. No presence on the show floor by backers of either format, no big presentations to sell retailers on their respective format.

Sure the HD DVD Promotional Group is offering Toshiba's bottom line HD DVD player for $99 to attendees, which is totally tempting. New Line told indie retailers today that Hairspray would be their first high def release on Blu-ray and HD DVD. But that's about it. No competing press conference between the two camps like last year, no Blu-ray lounge from Sony as there was last year.

That's not to say that backers are skipping the show altogether, just the retailer part, it seems.

Instead they are courting the 75 or so early adopters from the Home Theater Forum and The Digital Bits that were invited to attend this year's show and talk about their habits with studios and retailers. Blu-ray backers Disney, Sony, Fox and Lionsgate are throwing them a party Tuesday night. The HD DVD Promotional Group will give a demo for them, they'll get sit-down meetings with Warner and Universal (where they'll surely be asked if and when they'll start releasing on Blu-ray.)

Not to say that these guys aren't important, but, umm, how are the studios going to reach these types of consumers without the retailers behind them? Backers of both formats keep saying that they want to better educate retailers about high def, so why not here? I keep hearing that there are fewer retailers attending this year compared with last year, but there are retailers here and given the state of the format war, why isn't either side trying to win them over?

Kiosk makers and digital download services certainly seem to be reaching out to them at the show. They'll take part in panels focused on digital distribution, the new part of the business that's expected to grow much slower than high def disc and be a much smaller part of the market for the next five years. Lionsgate estimates that consumers have so far spent $40 million on digital movie downloads, which is like less than the consumer spend on one small box office DVD release. And most retailers I asked about digital yesterday seem unconcerned with it right now.

Instead I've heard talk from small and midsize retailers about Blu-ray and HD DVD and whether more retailers are starting to lean in Blu-ray's favor. Too bad there's no big push from either format to the show them why they should or shouldn't pick a side already.

Posted by Jennifer Netherby on July 16, 2007

[Derb]

FINALLY

[orko007]

Excellent. Alot of New Line is released out here under Village Roadshow whom havent gotten into the market. I'm thinking the New Lines titles might move along here Village to get into it

[Sehnzeleid]

Finally, but I'm not buying that one.

[ganthc]

Let's hope New Line supports lossless audio codecs, and doesn't wimp out like Paramount does, and mostly Warner and Universal.

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Jennifer Netherby

Instead I've heard talk from small and midsize retailers about Blu-ray and HD DVD and whether more retailers are starting to lean in Blu-ray's favor. Too bad there's no big push from either format to the show them why they should or shouldn't pick a side already.

The Home Media Expo only represents the smaller retailers, and has gotten less and less important each year. That's why neither format is having any big hoopla at the event. Studios are more concerned now with the Best Buy's and Amazon's and Wal-marts than with smaller independents, which are disappearing more and more.

Good news about New Line though. To bad they don't mean the original John Waters film.

[SharpShooter5]

awesome news about new line, now if they could just go blu-ray exclusive, the world would be a better place

[Sehnzeleid]

Sorry, they promised dual format.

[Shawn Watson]

I'll leave hairspray, thank you.

But I WOULD buy:

Mortal Kombat
In The Mouth Of Madness
Cellular
Jason X
Freddy vs Jason
15 Minutes
Se7en
Surviving the Game
Teenage Mutuant Ninja Turtles 1-3



Shawn

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Shawn Watson

In The Mouth Of Madness

Do you read Sutter Cane?

Also don't forget:

The Hidden
American History X
Leatherface: TCM Part 3
Jason Goes to Hell
Jason X
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (remake)
Willard

["The Dude"]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Let's hope New Line supports lossless audio codecs, and doesn't wimp out like Paramount does, and mostly Warner and Universal.

Well, what did we expect from WB? They didn't/don't even support DTS on DVD.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by "The Dude"

Well, what did we expect from WB? They didn't/don't even support DTS on DVD.

But they have put out some TrueHD titles and even LPCM. There is no reason they couldn't do that on all titles. I rarely get Paramount titles because of their lack of support for lossless.

[dugpa]

As far as New Line goes, I'm looking forward to:

Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me
Dancer In The Dark
The New World
A History of Violence
A Prairie Home Companion
Mother Night
The Hidden
The Butterfly Effect
Magnolia
Pleasantville
Hairspray (the John Waters one)
Hedwig and the Angry Inch
The Notebook

[SilentBob]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Let's hope New Line supports lossless audio codecs, and doesn't wimp out like Paramount does, and mostly Warner and Universal.

I tend to think they will support the new lossless audio codecs. Just look at the regular dvd's they put out there now. One of the few that supply the disc with both a Dolby EX and DTS-ES track on one disc. Most don't even include a DTS track itself

[MJZ]

Blade and Blade II in HD with TrueHD please (Blade Trinity can suck a fat one).

[Derb]

Bring on Friday, The Mask, Dumb & Dumber.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by SilentBob

I tend to think they will support the new lossless audio codecs. Just look at the regular dvd's they put out there now. One of the few that supply the disc with both a Dolby EX and DTS-ES track on one disc. Most don't even include a DTS track itself

Excellent! Yeah, I would love to see LOTR in come out with a LPCM or TrueHD track.

Also favorites are Freddy vs. Jason, Se7en, among others.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Excellent! Yeah, I would love to see LOTR in come out with a LPCM or TrueHD track.

I am completely satisfied to see stuff come out with 1.5mbps DD+ or DTS-HD soundtracks - it seems that is the threshold for perceptual lossless. TrueHD or DTS-HDMA would be great, too, of course. The only ones in my book that I would be less excited to see would be DD 640kbps because its not perceptually lossless and also PCM because the space and peak bitrate could be better used for extras or interactive features - use TrueHD in this case instead.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I would just be happy to see stuff come out with 1.5mbps DD+ or DTS-HD soundtracks -

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Take me up on my 192kbps VBR lossy WMA9 vs. uncompressed PCM double blind challenge! I did it myself and the results were surprising, hence my recent endorsement for high bitrate lossy codecs Any song of your choosing.

I agree that TrueHD lossless is nice to have, but I am just as happy with 1.5mbps lossy DD+ or DTS because in reality it should sound the same. Heck, one of the guys who worked on the set of Dante's Peak and saw numerous screenings of the movie says that the DD+ track on the HD DVD sounds better than any screening he's ever seen! Now thats an endorsement!

Originally Posted by Dante's Peak filmmaker on DD+ 1.5mbps lossy track

I was also very surprised about the sound quality. It was rip-roaring great! That title sequence eruption scared the bejeebers out of everybody. Many LFE hits turned on the display of the motion sensitive remote control on the seat next to me. This is certainly far better than I heard it anywhere before.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Take me up on my 192kbps VBR lossy WMA9 vs. uncompressed PCM double blind challenge! I did it myself and the results were surprising, hence my recent endorsement for high bitrate lossy codecs

I agree that TrueHD lossless is nice to have, but I am just as happy with 1.5mbps lossy DD+ or DTS because in reality it should sound the same. Heck, one of the guys who worked on the set of Dante's Peak and saw numerous screenings of the movie says that the DD+ track on the HD DVD sounds better than he remembered the film sounding originally in his screenings. Now thats an endorsement!

I still need to take the TrueHD versus DD+ test for Batman Begins. I will need to find the time to do that.

In the meantime, I am disappointed that you are such an advocate for lesser audio codecs. If TrueHD is the next way to go, then so be it. I haven't been blown away by DD+ tracks like I have LPCM tracks on movies...granted they aren't the same movie, but I have been extremely impressed with almost all LPCM tracks, even on non-action movies. DD+ has been nice, but nothing to blow my socks off.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

I still need to take the TrueHD versus DD+ test for Batman Begins. I will need to find the time to do that.

Remember, on that one the DD+ track is only 640kbps, so there may be an audible difference.

In the meantime, I am disappointed that you are such an advocate for lesser audio codecs. If TrueHD is the next way to go, then so be it. I haven't been blown away by DD+ tracks like I have LPCM tracks on movies...granted they aren't the same movie, but I have been extremely impressed with almost all LPCM tracks, even on non-action movies. DD+ has been nice, but nothing to blow my socks off.

TrueHD would be the best solution in the long run, but I don't see high bitrate lossy as a "lesser" audio codec and thus I would be happy with it. 1.5mbps DD+/DTS has half the peak bitrate of 1.5mbps TrueHD, and if they sound the same as they should who cares? 640kbps DD might have some impact on the sound quality, so I would prefer 1.5mbps DD+ at the minimum from studios. In the end, though, even there I don't think it would make a massive difference.

And btw, lossless will soon be a thing of the past:
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=289

With watermarking, its impossible to have mathematically lossless sound. Perceptual lossless, sure, but watermarking will change the waveform from the master invalidating any chance of true mathematically lossless sound.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Remember, on that one the DD+ track is only 640kbps, so there may be an audible difference.

Well, I guess there is no way to test at this point via movies.

TrueHD would be the best solution in the long run, but I don't see high bitrate lossy as a "lesser" audio codec and thus I would be happy with it. 1.5mbps DD+/DTS has half the peak bitrate of 1.5mbps TrueHD, and if they sound the same as they should who cares? 640kbps DD might have some impact on the sound quality, so I would prefer 1.5mbps DD+ at the minimum from studios. In the end, though, even there I don't think it would make a massive difference.

It's strange because in titles that are released by Paramount or Warner, where bd gets the lesser 640kbps DD, and hd-dvd gets the 1.5mbps DD+ track, there is often very little difference between the two. However, when there is a 640kbps DD track and a lossless track, the lossless is clearly the winner. So little difference between 640 and 1.5 DD tracks, but huge difference between 640 and lossless? Yet you claim that 1.5 DD+ and lossless are equal, even virtually? I'm still not buying it, but I will wait for the chance to test it.

And btw, lossless will soon be a thing of the past:
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=289

With watermarking, its impossible to have mathematically lossless sound. Perceptual lossless, sure, but watermarking will change the waveform from the master invalidating any chance of true mathematically lossless sound.

Where does it say in the article that lossless is impossible with watermarking? I didn't read that anywhere in the article.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by ganthc

I still need to take the TrueHD versus DD+ test for Batman Begins. I will need to find the time to do that.

meh, try End of Days.

TrueHD vs 1.5 dts & the TrueHD blows the 1.5 crap out of the water!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

It's strange because in titles that are released by Paramount or Warner, where bd gets the lesser 640kbps DD, and hd-dvd gets the 1.5mbps DD+ track, there is often very little difference between the two.

In most highdefdigest reviews, actually, the 1.5mbps track generally is noted as being a tad better than the 640kbps track. Not unlike the differences that are seen between a 640kbps track and a lossless track.

However, when there is a 640kbps DD track and a lossless track, the lossless is clearly the winner. So little difference between 640 and 1.5 DD tracks, but huge difference between 640 and lossless? Yet you claim that 1.5 DD+ and lossless are equal, even virtually? I'm still not buying it, but I will wait for the chance to test it.

I'd wager Lossless is only "clearly" the winner due to perception, placebo effect, or volume differences. People think it is supposed to sound better so they hear a big difference when they listen to it whether the difference is there or not. I would wager if you did a blind test lossless vs 1.5mbps DD+ you would not be able to tell the difference. Again, I can easily set this test up with lossy audio codecs and uncompressed CD, and I guarantee you will fail to tell the difference.

Where does it say in the article that lossless is impossible with watermarking? I didn't read that anywhere in the article.

By nature of the definition of watermarking mathematically lossless would be impossible. What watermarking means is that something is embedded in the original waveform itself that can be picked up by an HD DVD player. And, the definition of mathematically lossless means that the waveform is identical to the master - if watermarking is introduced to the stream it mathematically changes the waveform from the master. What can be done is that the watermarking can be added so that it is inaudible in the waveform, but that is only perceptual lossless as the stream has still been changed from the original (i.e. adding watermarking info in the range above 20khz); also, watermarking that is audible is harder to filter out by hackers without destroying the soundtrack so audible watermarking may be preferable for studios (of course they won't tell you that they did this). In other words, new audio patterns are added to the waveform itself to be picked up by an HD DVD player, changing the waveform and making mathematically lossless impossible. If watermarking is made standard, you will have to be satisfied with perceptual lossless because you will have no option anymore for truly mathematically lossless audio, the waveform will always have the waveform-changing watermarking embedded. It may be stored in a "lossless" TrueHD/DTS-HDMA/PCM codec which may make you feel warm and fuzzy, but the actual audio waveform itself will only be at best perceptually lossless (not unlike high bitrate lossy audio) despite the codec due to watermarking.

Watermarking for video is done in the same manner. In both audio and video, the more aggressive the watermarking (i.e. the harder to filter out), the bigger the impact on A/V quality. For instance, if you had really really aggressive video watermarking you might see what appears to be video noise or excess grain, while that is actually the watermarking in action. If you have less aggressive watermarking, you probably won't be able to see or hear it but less aggressive watermarking is easier for hackers to filter out. So you will have a tradeoff on quality vs. difficulty to remove the watermarking. You can even test this yourself if you have Photoshop, as it has watermarking capabilities in one of the filters (Digimarc Embed/Read Watermark functions); you can even see the impact of watermarking on video quality varying based on its strength.

"Lossless audio" is turning out to be a huge marketing bullet point, but as a casualty there is massive confusion on the subject and what it actually means.