Kevin Collins on HDi and HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray

[Ruined]

Excellent read!

http://www.twice.com/article/CA64607...dustryid=23099

[ganthc]

Is the market starving for online content provided on their movies? Also, does Collins factor in the benefits of bd+ and whether that might be a reason for studios to remain with bd?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Is the market starving for online content provided on their movies?

Online transactions are working very well for Microsoft with XBOX Live, and this could easily generate revenue for a studio on any given title. Further, many people do seem excited by the possibilities of online like myself.

Also, does Collins factor in the benefits of bd+ and whether that might be a reason for studios to remain with bd?

Read it and find out :p

Also, is the market starving for more intrusive copy protection provided by BD+?

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Online transactions are working very well for Microsoft with XBOX Live in the US only, and this could easily generate revenue for a studio on any given title. Further, many people do seem excited by the possibilities of online like myself.

fixed.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Online transactions are working very well for Microsoft with XBOX Live, and this could easily generate revenue for a studio on any given title. Further, many people do seem excited by the possibilities of online like myself.

Yes, as there was some initial excitement about dvd-rom. But those features became stupid over time. It's possible that it could work, but is it something that will be used? I'd like to see stats of the usage of these features in the future, when they become available. The online transactions are the only way to watch movies on the 360, which is not a true gauge of interest...and belies your "gamers don't watch movies on their consoles" mantra.

Read it and find out :p

I did read it, that's why I asked the question.

Also, is the market starving for more intrusive copy protection provided by BD+?

In the case of content protection, the market doesn't determine the type of protection studios use to guard their content. Since most legal users will be unharmed by bd+, I think it's only the pirates that have reason to worry about the intrusive part.

[chlngr1970]

Originally Posted by ganthc

In the case of content protection, the market doesn't determine the type of protection studios use to guard their content. Since most legal users will be unharmed by bd+, I think it's only the pirates that have reason to worry about the intrusive part.

I believe it was the market that determined that Sony NOT use their wonderfull Root Kit CD Copy protection...

j

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yes, as there was some initial excitement about dvd-rom. But those features became stupid over time. It's possible that it could work, but is it something that will be used? I'd like to see stats of the usage of these features in the future, when they become available. The online transactions are the only way to watch movies on the 360, which is not a true gauge of interest...and belies your "gamers don't watch movies on their consoles" mantra.

I wasn't referring to the online movies on 360, I was referring to additional content for games. Movie studios can start selling additional pieces of content using microtransactions; instead of charging $39.99 for a special edition they could charge $29.99 and sell extras seperately at $2.50/each, with the user buying only the one he wants. Or even movie memoriabilia can be purchased. In fact, one of the upcoming HD DVD titles is going to have a builtin online store to buy T-Shirts related to the movie.

I did read it, that's why I asked the question.

Ah, well then you should know the answer to it! If you want to debate a point, be more specific.

In the case of content protection, the market doesn't determine the type of protection studios use to guard their content. Since most legal users will be unharmed by bd+, I think it's only the pirates that have reason to worry about the intrusive part.

I've seen many a DRM mechanism and even formats crash and burn because of too much intrusiveness in the DRM. Since you can't reliably predict if BD+ will harm legal users, you can't predict the reaction to the DRM either (which is already very negative from everyone except those who are very pro-BD). After all, who actually wants to have less rights, more security risks, and the possibility of more hassles when it is clearly unnecessary as evidenced by the competing format? Don't let movie studios intimidate you and trample on your fair use rights, vote with your dollar!

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

I believe it was the market that determined that Sony NOT use their wonderfull Root Kit CD Copy protection...

j

That's because it didn't work right. If bd+ is broken, then the market should reject it as well, to either fix it or scrap it.

[187ontheVHS]

Originally Posted by Derb

fixed.

Exactly! This move to online distribution scares me, because I know that here in Canada we'll get, for lack of a better term, totally fucked! I fear the day that I can't get my favorite movie or new album from my favorite band because whoever holds the license isn't doing anything with it outside of the US or the UK! When that day comes you'll see me getting very cozy with piracy.

[videoworx]

Online integration can be fun, but what happens 5 years after a HD-DVD has been released? Will the content still be there?

I'd wager almost every currently released DVD with online capabilities no longer works as advertised. In other words, if you want the added-value, you have to buy right away. This might seem appropriate for brand new titles, but what about older ones?

In addition, as has been pointed out by some reviews, the video content that is downloaded (on Freedom Vol. 1, for instance), is not HD quality - certainly not something you'd want on a piece of equipment designed (primarily) to play HD content.

[Ruined]

[quote=videoworx;839899]Online integration can be fun, but what happens 5 years after a HD-DVD has been released? Will the content still be there?

I'd wager almost every currently released DVD with online capabilities no longer works as advertised. In other words, if you want the added-value, you have to buy right away. This might seem appropriate for brand new titles, but what about older ones?

In addition, as has been pointed out by some reviews, the video content that is downloaded (on Freedom Vol. 1, for instance), is not HD quality - certainly not something you'd want on a piece of equipment designed (primarily) to play HD content.

Freedom vol.1 has the content stored on the disc in high definition 1080p24, you simply download an unlock key to access the hidden feature; its more a tech demo than anything else for that disc. And, I don't see the problem with SD extras on an HD DVD player; tons of HD movies have SD extras and it really doesnt matter to me because the point of extras is to educate you on content, not to show you the movie again in highdef as we already have that on disc. The extras that really excite me are the PiP and interactive ones as seen on discs like Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift, Freedom vol.1 (resizable PiP of initial render with adjustable transparency), and Mission Impossible 3 (great video commentary that has interactive features). Blood Diamond also allows you to participate in online polls that will affect future HD DVD titles which is cool.

Also, since every HD DVD player is mandated to have two USB ports, it will be possible in the future to hook up an external USB hard drive to store content on if you wish (if you fill up the player's internal 192mb capacity).

[Derb]

Freedom: 1 (HD DVD)
Bandai Visual / 2006 / 25 Minutes
Amazon.com price - $27.95

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Derb

Freedom: 1 (HD DVD)
Bandai Visual / 2006 / 25 Minutes
Amazon.com price - $27.95

Worth picking up for an amazing tech demo to impress visitors, though it is a ripoff for the time of the feature

Apparently it was made by the guys who did Akira.

[ganthc]

That's almost as much a ripoff as the $10-14 markup on the combo formats from Universal.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

That's almost as much a ripoff as the $10-14 markup on the combo formats from Universal.

Not sure where you are getting that figure as combos range from 34.99 to 39.99 depending on the the age of the title - making the markup only $5 since day-and-date HD/BD discs are 34.99 & catalogs are 29.99. And you are getting a more functional disc that plays everywhere for that additional cost. Personally I'd prefer all discs to be 34.99 combos as the DVD and HD DVD versions are both useful in their own ways and I think $5 is a fair markup for that. Also, its worth mentioning that Paramount charges 39.99 for all new releases and you don't get the DVD version.

Also, its worth mentioning that Freedom vol.1 is a twin disc - seperate HD DVD and DVD layers on a single-sided disc.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Not sure where you are getting that figure as combos range from 34.99 to 39.99 depending on the the age of the title - making the markup only $5 since day-and-date HD/BD discs are 34.99 & catalogs are 29.99. And you are getting a more functional disc that plays everywhere for that additional cost. Personally I'd prefer all discs to be 34.99 combos as the DVD and HD DVD versions are both useful in their own ways and I think $5 is a fair markup for that. Also, its worth mentioning that Paramount charges 39.99 for all new releases and you don't get the DVD version.

Also, its worth mentioning that Freedom vol.1 is a twin disc - seperate HD DVD and DVD layers on a single-sided disc.

Really? Because other Universal titles were $24.99 and on Amazon they are $20. I was really wanting to buy "Dead Silence" while I was there, but at $34.99 it was too pricey...kinda like Fox, which I also tend not to buy. The dvd side costs Universal next to nothing to burn on the disc, so it's just price markups...and it discourages j6p from ever converting over to HD. I haven't been happy with Fox for high markups on movies, and the combo discs are terrible in my opinion. I'm guessing that Warner might have delayed TotalHD because of surveys they took that said people won't like the price markup that will certainly happen.

Even on Amazon, "Dead Silence" is $28 bucks. That's $8 more than the standard $20 price. If you buy three of those movies, you're basically losing one movie for the same price. I don't like those higher prices on either side.

[videoworx]

Bandai used to charge the same for 30 minute DVD and VHS releases. The price gouging isn't HD-DVD related. Note that their upcoming Wings of Honneamise release (on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD) is $79.99. This is just typical Bandai mentality.

Also, note this bit, in the HD Digest review of Freedom:

My major issue is that if there is content already loaded on the disc, a user shouldn't have to acquire an online access key to view it. You've already shelled out your money and now you have to jump through hoops to get your money's worth -- it's not a process that respects our positions as fans.

Again, online extras a fun, but can be a major burden if the website goes down, or if your player isn't connected to the internet.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Really? Because other Universal titles were $24.99 and on Amazon they are $20. I was really wanting to buy "Dead Silence" while I was there, but at $34.99 it was too pricey...kinda like Fox, which I also tend not to buy.

I got Dead Silence at Best Buy in Rockaway New Jersey for $25 (marked $29.99 + $5 reward zone certificate). Online retailers will of course be cheaper.

The dvd side costs Universal next to nothing to burn on the disc, so it's just price markups...

Most of it is "early adopter tax," but it does cost Universal more for the DVD side because in addition to the layer they also have to pay licensing fees for standard DVD in addition to HD DVD.

and it discourages j6p from ever converting over to HD.

Obviously prices will be lowered when the studios feel the j6p market is ready, as happened with standard DVD.

I haven't been happy with Fox for high markups on movies, and the combo discs are terrible in my opinion. I'm guessing that Warner might have delayed TotalHD because of surveys they took that said people won't like the price markup that will certainly happen.

My guess is Warner doesn't have enough volume of TotalHD discs at this point and probably wants to put out 15-20 titles at once so they can have their own section of the store. Warner wants their own "TotalHD" to be the nextgen disc standard, not HD DVD or Blu-Ray.

Even on Amazon, "Dead Silence" is $28 bucks. That's $8 more than the standard $20 price. If you buy three of those movies, you're basically losing one movie for the same price. I don't like those higher prices on either side.

Ah, but this is incorrect as you are comparing new release pricing to catalog pricing. All studios are charging $34.99-$39.99 MSRP for new releases, combo or not on both BD and HD. Paramount charges 39.99 MSRP for the new releases like Babel, Black Snake Moan, World Trade Center, MI3, etc - none of them are combos and half of those are only single-sided single disc editions. Warner charges $34.99 for new release non combos on BD and $39.99 for new release combos on HD. Universal has charged up to $39.99 for new release non-combos (King Kong) and $39.99 for new release combos, with catalog combos at $34.99 and catalog titles at 29.99.

Most releases you will find at the $20 amazon price are catalog titles. I challenge you to find 10 new releases priced at $20 - good luck with that. So what you are really talking about with combos is the following in Amazon prices:

NON COMBO prices on Amazon both BD and HD DVD:
--
Warner - $19.99 catalog, $23.95 New Release
Paramount - $19.99 catalog, $27.95 New Release
Universal - $19.99 catalog, 27.95 New Release

COMBO prices on Amazon:
--
Warner - $27.95 New Release ($4 more than Non-Combo)
Paramount - no combos
Universal - $23.95 catalog (now phased out), 27.95 New Release

So, in conclusion, you are paying $0 - $4 more for a combo on Amazon. The main gouging is actually with new releases on HD/BD period, not just HD combo discs. YMMV in retail stores - Best Buy near me, for instance, is currently charging 34.99 ($5 over MSRP) for the non-combo of Blood Diamond on HD.

[Frankie]

I really don't understand all the hoopla surrounding this.

Go to a web site to download a key to open a door to look at additional content???
Or hit a key to see how a blue screen effects were done in the middle of a movie. I want to watch the move not keep jumping back and forth.

Just put the content on the dam disk. Man this is really getting stupid.
Talk about pull advertising.

Even easter eggs are getting old fast. Highlight the sword in such and such a place and hold down the enter key while you press 4798 then hit... give me a break.

Just put the movie on the disk slap on a few extras and I'll call it all good.

F

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Frankie

I really don't understand all the hoopla surrounding this.

Go to a web site to download a key to open a door to look at additional content???

That was more of a tech demo. Eventually you will be able to download trailers/other content and you can also participate in online polls. You could even theoretically participate in a webforum through a USB keyboard plugged into the HD DVD player.

Or hit a key to see how a blue screen effects were done in the middle of a movie. I want to watch the move not keep jumping back and forth.

Well that's the point, the movie continues and the blue screen effects pop up in a PiP window so you don't have to jump back and forth. With HDi, Pip windows can be programmed to be resizable, movable, and have adjustable transparency; the audio mix level between the main feature and pip window can be adjusted if they have seperate audio streams. At least try it before you knock it!

[Toefur]

I'd rather just have all the content available on disc too. What happens in 2 years when the studio decides to take down the page? You lose access to what you've paid for/should have on the disc already anyway.

As for junk while playing a movie. I find it annoying enough when someone pulls into the parkinglot thumping their music, or when a neighbor is being exceptionally loud while I'm trying to watch a film. I don't need/want a pip box in the corner distracting or annoying me. Yeah I know I can turn it off, I'm just saying that I'd never want to use it.

[ganthc]

Well, I will say that for some people the content will be nice. The "Tokyo Drift" pip was pretty cool. I only tried it because Ruined recommended it. But really U-control isn't something I will use that much. I have just enough time to watch movies and catch up on my massive queues on Netflix, while still watching the movies I've bought. Spending hours and hours on special features hasn't been my thing. I admit that when I was buying dvds, I really wanted all that stuff. But now I just want the movie to watch, for the most part. I still haven't watched all the LOTR or Star Wars special features yet.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Well, I will say that for some people the content will be nice. The "Tokyo Drift" pip was pretty cool. I only tried it because Ruined recommended it. But really U-control isn't something I will use that much. I have just enough time to watch movies and catch up on my massive queues on Netflix, while still watching the movies I've bought. Spending hours and hours on special features hasn't been my thing. I admit that when I was buying dvds, I really wanted all that stuff. But now I just want the movie to watch, for the most part. I still haven't watched all the LOTR or Star Wars special features yet.

I recommend you Netflix "300" on HD DVD and "Freedom Vol.1" as well if you want even more advanced HDi demonstrations. Pretty cool stuff. Tokyo Drift just scratched the surface.