Fourth Quarter Fervor

[Daze]

This was posted on the front page, but I did not see any discussion here.

I'm fortunate (or not) enough to be sitting on the bench until at least next year.

http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?opt...k=view&id=6412

Summary To Date

As of November 24, there are 2.7 million Blu-ray Disc players and 750,000 HD DVD players in the North American installed base (3.6:1). Aggregate disc sales year-to-date hover at 2:1, advantage Blu-ray Disc. In Europe, the player advantage is a more dramatic 17:1 and disc sales are running 2.7:1, both giving the advantage to Blu-ray Disc.

I had no idea the gap was so wide. I guess I will see how next year works out though before jumping in.

[Sehnzeleid]

If the PS3 is to be counted as a BD player, that is...

[Daze]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

If the PS3 is to be counted as a BD player, that is...

It's the Blu-ray player I am looking at buying.

I also would like a 360 with a built in HD-DVD drive. Which rumors suggest may or may not happen.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

If the PS3 is to be counted as a BD player, that is...

Well, considering that hd-dvd is counting the hda0 as an hd-dvd player, bumping up its player count from 500k to 750k, then yes, the ps3 should be counted.

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Well, considering that hd-dvd is counting the hda0 as an hd-dvd player, bumping up its player count from 500k to 750k, then yes, the ps3 should be counted.

...but the vast majority of people buy the 360 Add-on expressly for the purpose of viewing HD DVDs, unless their slow and don't realize the 360 can play DVDs like the Add-on can also do. But it's not like it can't (or sorta maybe/maybe not) be counted as an HD DVD player because it does something "else" like make delicious waffles that people might buy it for instead of playing HD DVD.

Sony has created a clusterfuck of their gaming console if the vast majority of people are buying it to solely watch Blu-rays (like me ). If that's the case, they might win in one way but lose in another.

[Wilson]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Well, considering that hd-dvd is counting the hda0 as an hd-dvd player, bumping up its player count from 500k to 750k, then yes, the ps3 should be counted.

I bought a PS3 just for Blu-ray.

I think the argument is that the x-box HDAO has only one use. Movies. Not the case with the PS3. Without a doubt there are PS3's that have never seen a movie disc but with that said I don't think there's a way to split this to get a true representation.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

...but the vast majority of people buy the 360 Add-on expressly for the purpose of viewing HD DVDs, unless their slow and don't realize the 360 can play DVDs like the Add-on can also do.

Of course, but if we are supposed to do standalones only, then you wouldn't include the hda0. Even so, Blu-ray has sold 700k stand alone players, so it's not doing bad in its own right.

Sony has created a clusterfuck of their gaming console if the vast majority of people are buying it to solely watch Blu-rays (like me ). If that's the case, they might win in one way but lose in another.

I disagree. If we are to say that increased amounts of hd-dvd players will mean that studios will want to switch over to take advantage of the market they create, then we could say the same for the ps3 and games. Even if you have people that buy the ps3 solely for bd watching, game developers will only see the total number of ps3's sold and see the market that it delivers.

Really, the thing that has hurt the ps3's gaming side is lack of titles and a high price. The price has come down, and people are buying ps3's pretty well now. Some are doing so specifically for gaming or for bd watching, but really Sony's Trojan horse has been the key to keeping higher sales on bd discs, and for those that watch only movies, they still help the gaming side because they increase the count of ps3s in the market.

[Iguana Man]

Lets just step back for a moment. Get a grip and think. The 360 came out BEFORE the HDAO. The folks buying the 360 before the add on bought it for GAMES ONLY. The folks who THEN added the HDAO to the 360 bought the HDAO as a HD DVD player ONLY. Ergo, the HDAO equates to a standalone player.

The PS3 buyers. Hmmmm. The PS NAME equates to a gaming console. It's a GAME CONSOLE to everyone when it came out. The NEW PS2. It sells like crap because of its price and availability. But....it's got BR inside.

It's a CONSOLE with BR inside. Is it a standalone BR player? Maybe, but was it BOUGHT enmass by the public (not you few and far between HD geeks) for any reason other than GAMES? NO. Will it be used as a BR player? Sure. But for the love of all that's right, it wasn't purchased for the SOLE reason enmass as a BR player.

That is what justifiably makes the HDAO accountable as a HD Player for the SOLE purpose of playing HD material over the PS3 IMeffingO.

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Even so, Blu-ray has sold 700k stand alone players, so it's not doing bad in its own right.

"Assumed" by a writer of an article.

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

Lets just step back for a moment. Get a grip and think. The 360 came out BEFORE the HDAO. The folks buying the 360 before the add on bought it for GAMES ONLY. The folks who THEN added the HDAO to the 360 bought the HDAO as a HD DVD player ONLY. Ergo, the HDAO equates to a standalone player.

The PS3 buyers. Hmmmm. The PS NAME equates to a gaming console. It's a GAME CONSOLE to everyone when it came out. The NEW PS2. It sells like crap because of its price and availability. But....it's got BR inside.

It's a CONSOLE with BR inside. Is it a standalone BR player? Maybe, but was it BOUGHT enmass by the public (not you few and far between HD geeks) for any reason other than GAMES? NO. Will it be used as a BR player? Sure. But for the love of all that's right, it wasn't purchased for the SOLE reason enmass as a BR player.

That is what justifiably makes the HDAO accountable as a HD Player for the SOLE purpose of playing HD material over the PS3 IMeffingO.

I a mjust laughing at your use of IMeffingO.

I like most of your logic and I would agree with you that it needs to fit a product scheme and its sales counted in that way. Does VCR/DVD combo add to DVD hardware sales or VHS Hardware sales? Which is it? Should it really count for both? I would say no. It needs to have a primary function.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

"Assumed" by a writer of an article.

Yes, more like "over-assumed to the point of hilarity."

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12012.cfm

Originally Posted by afterdawn.com

According to the The Digital Entertainment Group, Blu-ray standalone sales have not even reached 200,000 units yet.

And,

Originally Posted by ganthc

Of course, but if we are supposed to do standalones only, then you wouldn't include the hda0. Even so, Blu-ray has sold 700k stand alone players, so it's not doing bad in its own right.

Key word is dedicated players. What else could you do with a HDAO that you couldn't do with a 360 aside from HD DVD? I can think of about a million answers for the PS3. Not to mention that the PS3 is primarily a game console (as evidenced by its name), while the HDAO does nothing except play HD DVDs.

[Derb]

Both HD formats are kicking DVDs ass in comparison to DVDs introduction back in 1997

[BoSoxMole]

Well let's put it this way:

Even if you don't count them in sale numbers, it still has the damn BR player in it. So about 150,000 BR players were sold and 2.68 million PS3s were sold. And those PS3s HAPPEN to have a BR player in them. I'm still pretty pumped about that. Because it still allows people who have a PS3 to USE it for watching BR movies. It's there, so if they use it or not, it doesn't matter. They bought one and will probably use it one time or another.

Besides, BR has sold 75% of the market. And you CAN'T use the BOGO thing for all of it because it has only been like that for the past 5 months or so. You gotta remember all the times a BR disc was sold BEFORE it.

I've NEVER gotten a BOGO BR deal and I have purchased about 20 BR movies. Look at Derb. He has a shit load of them and I believe he got most of them before the BOGO deals.

Has there been any numbers/polls saying how many people got a PS3 just for games and not for movies? Because everyone I know who has a PS3, which is about 5, all have watched atleast ONE BR movie. When you watch atleast one movie on it, you used it as BR player, so it should count towards the numbers. (err, maybe that is a strech. But you see what I am getting at.)

BR is kicking HD-DVDs ass. Simple as that. The numbers are right there. I don't care if HD-DVD has been planing this or some nonsense. Ruined even said the 4th quarter is the big one and it still looks like BR is winning. Unless WB goes exclusive HD-DVD, I can't see them catching up anytime soon.

[ganthc]

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.a...leid=CA6509196

Videobusiness reported 700,000 standalones sold. Your article preceded mine. What's overstating? Oh yeah, the overstating comes when hd-dvd fanboys refuse to consider the ps3 in anything except attach rates.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.a...leid=CA6509196

Videobusiness reported 700,000 standalones sold. Your article preceded mine. What's overstating? Oh yeah, the overstating comes when hd-dvd fanboys refuse to consider the ps3 in anything except attach rates.

Someone sucks at math... Sony announces 2.7 million BD players (including PS3s) sold through Black Friday. And, also according to Sony, 2 million PS3s sold through October 31st. So, your guess is that Sony sold zero PS3s throughout the entire month of November and also sold zero PS3s on one of the busiest shopping weekends of the year, Black Friday?

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/837/837917p1.html

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Someone sucks at math... Sony announces 2.7 million BD players (including PS3s) sold through Black Friday. And, also according to Sony, 2 million PS3s sold through October 31st. So, your guess is that Sony sold zero PS3s throughout the entire month of November and also sold zero PS3s on one of the busiest shopping weekends of the year, Black Friday?

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/837/837917p1.html

Hey, why not? You're assuming that all ps3's purchased are done so specifically for gaming.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Hey, why not? You're assuming that all ps3's purchased are done so specifically for gaming.

Most clearly are, but Sony's numbers included them anyway in their "BD players sold" category.

[jriseden]

The whole ps3 debate is silly. Will we ever know how much ps3 accounts for bd software sales? NO. Did BD get a boost when ps3 was released? YES.

So who cares how many are used as a bd player? Clearly enough are to help Blu-ray out.

And as far as the BOGO debate goes, at last count I had 53 bds in my collection. I can tell you that exactly 10 of those discs were purchased via BOGO. So if we don't count those freebies, I "really bought" 48 discs. As most bd users are early adopters, I'm sure they splurged on content for their new shiny toy just like I have in the past year, so I can see the BD software sales as being very legit. Sales helped by BOGO? HELL YES! 50% of this years software sales made up of BOGO? I highly doubt it.

And by the way if Sony catalog product like The Patriot, Wild Things, The Fifth Element, etc. being sold via BOGO is beating out Hd Dvd's biggest new release exclusives, then Hd Dvd is up a shit's creek without a paddle.

Think about it, all Sony needs to do is slash prices on 10 year old Bruce Willis movies for a week and BAM! Hd Dvd is beaten again. It's time to quit crying about that evil Sony's dirty old tricks, and start pointing at Hd Dvd for being so weak.

[MooglePorn]

^Oh my God... intelligence.

[Ruined]

Intelligence would dictate that if HD DVD were weak, it would have been defeated long ago considering how much money the BDA camp has poured into pushing their format. Subsidizing PS3, huge ad campaigns, subsidizing BD50, BOGO/half price movie sales, more exclusive studio & CE deals, exclusive retailer endcaps & deals, the list goes on and on. As it stands, Blu-Ray has failed at their efforts at defeating HD DVD so apparently HD DVD is not that weak after all.

In fact, HD DVD is obviously gaining momentum (either that or BD is losing momentum) as the frequency of BD BOGO/half priced sales has ramped up dramatically in the past few months in order to attempt to maintain perception of the sales lead Blu-Ray really did have in early 2007. Sony has quite an interesting business plan here subsidizing both hardware (PS3) and software (BD replication/BOGO half-priced sales); I'd imagine that is why they tried with all their might to defeat HD DVD in 2007. Losing money - or simply making no money - on both hardware AND software is clearly not a winning long-term business strategy.

But HD DVD remains the little engine that could despite BD's big marketing budget and spin. HD DVD keeps itself lean and fit without overspending while catering to the needs of consumers and as a result it remains very much in the game.

Things only get harder as time goes on for BD as HD DVD player prices continue to drop to mass market levels and penetration continues. By the end of next year $99 will be the standard price, not the sale price, for a generic HD DVD player. That will be quite a challenge for BD to keep up with.

[elfman]

I just got a kick out of this part:

That same kind reader more recently wrote to say that he purchased a new high-quality 1080p display and is now changing his position. He can now see that BD produces a more satisfying, more detailed, and more film-like presentation.

We can argue numbers, DRM, special features capabilities, and other aspects of these formats, but most films are released onto both formats with the same encode. Thus, played back with equally spec'd hardware they will look the same.
But BD is just somehow "more satisfying"? "more detailed"? "more film-like"?

Pfffftt.

[Derb]

In the gaming world, HD DVD reminds me of Panasonic 3DO, TurboGrafix 16 & Atari Jaguar.

BD reminds me of Nintendo 64, Sega Genesis, & PS1

[Daze]

That same kind reader more recently wrote to say that he purchased a new high-quality 1080p display and is now changing his position. He can now see that BD produces a more satisfying, more detailed, and more film-like presentation.

I don't have a 1080p display yet, so this is the reason I have not moved onto either format.

However, it is fun to sit on the sidelines and watch it all play out.

[elfman]

Originally Posted by Derb

In the gaming world, HD DVD reminds me of Panasonic 3DO, TurboGrafix 16 & Atari Jaguar.

BD reminds me of Nintendo 64, Sega Genesis, & PS1

Hey, I had a TurboGrafix 16 (loved it!), an N64 AND a Genesis. So would I be considered format neutral?

[jriseden]

Originally Posted by Ruined

"Intelligence would dictate that if HD DVD were weak, it would have been defeated long ago considering how much money the BDA camp has poured into pushing their format. Subsidizing PS3, huge ad campaigns, subsidizing BD50, BOGO/half price movie sales, more exclusive studio & CE deals, exclusive retailer endcaps & deals, the list goes on and on. As it stands, Blu-Ray has failed at their efforts at defeating HD DVD so apparently HD DVD is not that weak after all."

So the only reason the BDA exists is to DEFEAT hd dvd, not launch blu-ray? Sorry but hd dvd can't market their way out of a wet paper bag, to the point that the lil bit of money they do spend on ads is pretty much wasted money due to the ads overall ineffectiveness. And not being able to market your product when you already have the DVD format's name is a WEAKNESS.

Originally Posted by Ruined

"In fact, HD DVD is obviously gaining momentum (either that or BD is losing momentum) as the frequency of BD BOGO/half priced sales has ramped up dramatically in the past few months in order to attempt to maintain perception of the sales lead Blu-Ray really did have in early 2007. Sony has quite an interesting business plan here subsidizing both hardware (PS3) and software (BD replication/BOGO half-priced sales); I'd imagine that is why they tried with all their might to defeat HD DVD in 2007. Losing money - or simply making no money - on both hardware AND software is clearly not a winning long-term business strategy."

More silly cheapshots here. So the only reason the ps3 is subsidized is because of it's blu-ray drive? The ps3 would be subsidized if it had a floppy drive in it, because it's a video game console! Almost all game systems are sold at a lost and have been done so for the last 15 years or so. And how do you know how much money Sony is "bleeding" from their replication lines? Think about it, they own their own replication plants, everytime they produce stock for a dreaded BOGO sale they are paying themselves for the replication fees!

Originally Posted by Ruined

"But HD DVD remains the little engine that could despite BD's big marketing budget and spin. HD DVD keeps itself lean and fit without overspending while catering to the needs of consumers and as a result it remains very much in the game. "

"Things only get harder as time goes on for BD as HD DVD player prices continue to drop to mass market levels and penetration continues. By the end of next year $99 will be the standard price, not the sale price, for a generic HD DVD player. That will be quite a challenge for BD to keep up with."

And where is your source for knowing that hd players will be 99 dollars in 10 months or so? The cheapest players are 200-300 right now. I've heard this magic 99 dollar number quoted as fact by every hd fanboy since the wal-mart fire sale. I've seen the number of freebie hd discs grow from 5 to as much as 12 in some stores, but no real price cuts have come forth. And selling players for 99 dollars plus free movies? Isn't subsidizing exactly what you rip the bda for? Almost free players plus free movies sounds like subsidizing to me.