Toshiba: New strategy to make HDM irrelevant to J6P

[biglyle]

Originally Posted by ganthc

To me, defenders of Toshiba's upcon strategy are simply hd-dvd fanboys. They are not lovers of HDM, they are just Sony hating hd-dvd fanboys. Plain and simple. The defense of Toshiba's strategy is inexcusable. Either you want quality audio and video, or you don't. Seems to me that it's not about DRM or the like. It's just fanboyism.

This is 100% bang on imo.

[No6PackJoe]

Originally Posted by videoworx

Well, if you add the words "super", and possibly "hyper-mega" in front of anything, consumers will believe it's better. I think it's called a placebo effect.

BTW, will "Super-Up-Conversion" be shortened to SUC?

And don't forget "Super Up Convert DIVX" or beter yet DIVX-HD, and j6p will be drooling big time.

[Taxi]

Originally Posted by ganthc

To me, defenders of Toshiba's upcon strategy are simply hd-dvd fanboys. They are not lovers of HDM, they are just Sony hating hd-dvd fanboys.

Yeah, that rings true for me as well. I don't understand why some in the enthusiast community aren't getting behind a "true" HD format, now that the war is over.

Focusing on upconversion seems ludicrous to me when we have a format that can present a true 1080p image.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Taxi

Yeah, that rings true for me as well. I don't understand why some in the enthusiast community aren't getting behind a "true" HD format, now that the war is over.

Focusing on upconversion seems ludicrous to me when we have a format that can present a true 1080p image.

You can actually be behind both. Blu-ray is definitely better and I have a ton of Blu-rays, but I have tons and tons more standard DVD (around 800 total or so I'd estimate). I probably won't replace most of those, so I want them to look as best as possible. Most of the BD players out there have dreadful upconversion AEB Secrets benchmarks, so they are not a great option; the only one that is an all around good BD player and also an excellent upcon costs $2000 which is unacceptable - it is hard to go back after seeing what Reon can do. Super SD2HD upcon might actually give better results than Reon/Realta at an affordable price, so I am anxious to see the results.

[biglyle]

Originally Posted by Ruined

You can actually be behind both. Blu-ray is definitely better and I have a ton of Blu-rays, but I have tons and tons more standard DVD (around 800 total or so I'd estimate). I probably won't replace most of those, so I want them to look as best as possible. Most of the BD players out there have dreadful upconversion AEB Secrets benchmarks, so they are not a great option; the only one that is an all around good BD player and also an excellent upcon costs $2000 which is unacceptable - it is hard to go back after seeing what Reon can do. Super SD2HD upcon might actually give better results than Reon/Realta at an affordable price, so I am anxious to see the results.

I do see your point, there will always be a place for upconversion to some extent. My big beef here is with Toshiba's agenda behind this. Now that Toshiba has been forced to bow out of the HD race they are trying to sabotage the media itself. Suddenly HD is not necessary. I dont remember Toshiba saying this while they were trying to sell HD-DVD players. I dont like the motivation behind this, or the false pretenses associated with upconversion as a whole. For a company that every one claims is so consumer friendly this seems rather anti progress, which in the end translates to anti consumer.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by biglyle

I do see your point, there will always be a place for upconversion to some extent. My big beef here is with Toshiba's agenda behind this. Now that Toshiba has been forced to bow out of the HD race they are trying to sabotage the media itself. Suddenly HD is not necessary. I dont remember Toshiba saying this while they were trying to sell HD-DVD players. I dont like the motivation behind this, or the false pretenses associated with upconversion as a whole. For a company that every one claims is so consumer friendly this seems rather anti progress, which in the end translates to anti consumer.

Its business. This whole format war has been anti-consumer with companies paying off studios to stay exclusive, including dreadful DRM to make paranoid studios happy, and releasing half baked formats that are not ready for prime time yet.

This is just the latest stage in the format war and is a consequence of Blu-ray winning instead of HD DVD; everyone should have expected this as a consequence of BD winning or HD DVD being eliminated, now Toshiba will simply attempt to subvert the HDM movement unless BDA gives them a healthy cut of the royalties. While some may think this will never happen, as leader of the DVD forum, Toshiba can actually do some major damage to HDM... And who would blame them based on the position they were put in? Believe me, if Sony lost they would attempt to do the same using PS3, however I think Toshiba being leader of the DVD forum can probably do more damage by keeping people hooked on DVD as opposed to simply hanging around as a niche HDM competitor as Sony would. If HD DVD won the war, the DVD/HD DVD format war would be over quickly once twindisc matured, probably a year or so. Instead now we have Blu-ray vs. DVD, which is going to be a long drawn out battle due to the lack of a hybrid disc, especially if Toshiba puts up a good fight and it looks like they are going to... After all, if Toshiba gets no BD royalties why in the world would they help BD eliminate DVD - which is a huge cash cow for Toshiba? On top of this, studios can't pull the plug on DVD because it pays the bills with well over 90% of all disc sales! So it will be an uphill battle for BD for sure, especially with Toshiba marketing SD2HD super upcon.

[Taxi]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Its business. This whole format war has been anti-consumer with companies paying off studios to stay exclusive, including dreadful DRM to make paranoid studios happy, and releasing half baked formats that are not ready for prime time yet.

This is just the latest stage in the format war and is a consequence of Blu-ray winning instead of HD DVD; everyone should have expected this as a consequence of BD winning or HD DVD being eliminated, now Toshiba will simply attempt to subvert the HDM movement unless BDA gives them a healthy cut of the royalties. While some may think this will never happen, as leader of the DVD forum, Toshiba can actually do some major damage to HDM... And who would blame them based on the position they were put in? Believe me, if Sony lost they would attempt to do the same using PS3, however I think Toshiba being leader of the DVD forum can probably do more damage by keeping people hooked on DVD as opposed to simply hanging around as a niche HDM competitor as Sony would. If HD DVD won the war, the DVD/HD DVD format war would be over quickly once twindisc matured, probably a year or so. Instead now we have Blu-ray vs. DVD, which is going to be a long drawn out battle due to the lack of a hybrid disc, especially if Toshiba puts up a good fight and it looks like they are going to... After all, if Toshiba gets no BD royalties why in the world would they help BD eliminate DVD - which is a huge cash cow for Toshiba? On top of this, studios can't pull the plug on DVD because it pays the bills with well over 90% of all disc sales! So it will be an uphill battle for BD for sure, especially with Toshiba marketing SD2HD super upcon.

I think this is exactly the sort of thing that ganthc was talking about...

Way too many "what ifs" and sour grapes for me.

[El Lancito]

Originally Posted by ganthc

To me, defenders of Toshiba's upcon strategy are simply hd-dvd fanboys. They are not lovers of HDM, they are just Sony hating hd-dvd fanboys. Plain and simple. The defense of Toshiba's strategy is inexcusable. Either you want quality audio and video, or you don't. Seems to me that it's not about DRM or the like. It's just fanboyism.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that anybody can accuse me of being a fanboy, and I defended it. I have hundreds of DVDs, and if there's going to be a relatively inexpensive technology that will make them look even better than the standard upconversion, then I'm all for it.

What I'd like even more, of course, is an affordable Blu-Ray player that has super-upconversion. (Or better yet, an affordable dual format player with super-upconversion!)

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by El Lancito

I'm sorry, but I don't think that anybody can accuse me of being a fanboy, and I defended it. I have hundreds of DVDs, and if there's going to be a relatively inexpensive technology that will make them look even better than the standard upconversion, then I'm all for it.

What I'd like even more, of course, is an affordable Blu-Ray player that has super-upconversion. (Or better yet, an affordable dual format player with super-upconversion!)

Yep, Toshiba wouldn't have a leg to stand on if there was a good BD player out under $500 that also had good upcon. Such a machine doesn't exist, however. It's pathetic that people have to look for good deals on closeout XA2/HD805 players that they don't even plan to play HD DVDs on because BD players are so weak in the upcon department. The tech is there, most of the BDA players simply aren't using it... Maybe to save money, or maybe it is to make BD look better than DVD. Whatever the reason, upconversion on most BD players is plain unsatisfactory which gives Toshiba a market to sell excellent upcon players for people's massive DVD collections that aren't going to just vanish overnight.

I believe the whole "sour grapes" accusation is a knee-jerk fear reaction to Toshiba's strategy because it actually may undermine or slow BD adoption, therefore people may fear it. Again, though, if BD was offering the consumer a great player now with excellent upcon there wouldn't even be a discussion. The whole reason the discussion exists because aside from the BD30 and PS3, BD players have for the most part sucked. Better ones are coming out like the BD50 and hopefully the new Sony/Pio players will be good - but even with these new players none of them under $1000 look like they will have upcon comparable to the XA2 or HD805. So again, that leaves Toshiba room to manoever. So long as Blu-ray players remain high priced and fail to have great DVD upconversion, Toshiba will have wiggle room to undermine and slow BD. That is not sour grapes, that is simply reality.

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by El Lancito

I'm sorry, but I don't think that anybody can accuse me of being a fanboy, and I defended it. I have hundreds of DVDs, and if there's going to be a relatively inexpensive technology that will make them look even better than the standard upconversion, then I'm all for it.

What I'd like even more, of course, is an affordable Blu-Ray player that has super-upconversion.

This describes my attitude to a T.

With or without the super upconversion technology to compete with, I believe Blu-Ray is doomed to be a niche format to exist alongside DVD. This is a stance I've maintained since the introduction of HD on disc, and one I'll continue to believe in until reality has proven me wrong.

KM

[Shadowman82]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Yep, Toshiba wouldn't have a leg to stand on if there was a good BD player out under $500 that also had good upcon. Such a machine doesn't exist, however. It's pathetic that people have to look for good deals on closeout XA2/HD805 players that they don't even plan to play HD DVDs on because BD players are so weak in the upcon department. The tech is there, most of the BDA players simply aren't using it... Maybe to save money, or maybe it is to make BD look better than DVD. Whatever the reason, upconversion on most BD players is plain unsatisfactory which gives Toshiba a market to sell excellent upcon players for people's massive DVD collections that aren't going to just vanish overnight.

I believe the whole "sour grapes" accusation is a knee-jerk fear reaction to Toshiba's strategy because it actually may undermine or slow BD adoption, therefore people may fear it. Again, though, if BD was offering the consumer a great player now with excellent upcon there wouldn't even be a discussion. The whole reason the discussion exists because aside from the BD30 and PS3, BD players have for the most part sucked. Better ones are coming out like the BD50 and hopefully the new Sony/Pio players will be good - but even with these new players none of them under $1000 look like they will have upcon comparable to the XA2 or HD805. So again, that leaves Toshiba room to manoever. So long as Blu-ray players remain high priced and fail to have great DVD upconversion, Toshiba will have wiggle room to undermine and slow BD. That is not sour grapes, that is simply reality.

Blu-ray players may at this point not have very good upconversion but one could just get a SD DVD player , there are lots around with good unconversion . Let's say you wanted to be able to play DVDs from other Regions as well as SA-CD or DVD-A , there are no HD players that allow you do this anyway so you would need to have a SD DVD player for that anyway .

Secondly while I would agree that consumers are generally rather dumb I don't think Toshiba will succeed in doing any major damage to Blu-ray with these players .

Plus as was pointed out studios will want to make money with Blu-ray so if necessary they will not take great care in doing SD DVDs , kind of like they do poor mastering with CDs , just to make SD DVD seem less appealing .

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Taxi

Yeah, that rings true for me as well. I don't understand why some in the enthusiast community aren't getting behind a "true" HD format, now that the war is over.

Focusing on upconversion seems ludicrous to me when we have a format that can present a true 1080p image.

You make it sound like it's gotta be one or the other for enthusiasts. I'd love to have the super upcon AND a true high def format.

I also don't think classifying folks as HD Fanboys is nice. So go to your room pal.

I'm behind BR and the whole HD concept. I've invested a little to get the taste of it. Super Upcon though would be great for many applications though. Since it 'may' be really cheap (that's the key for me) it could be used in the bedroom, kitchen and even outdoors while leaving the Theater room or Living room for true 1080p.

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

You make it sound like it's gotta be one or the other for enthusiasts. I'd love to have the super upcon AND a true high def format.

I also don't think classifying folks as HD Fanboys is nice. So go to your room pal.

I'm behind BR and the whole HD concept. I've invested a little to get the taste of it. Super Upcon though would be great for many applications though. Since it 'may' be really cheap (that's the key for me) it could be used in the bedroom, kitchen and even outdoors while leaving the Theater room or Living room for true 1080p.

but upconversion will only look so good and the idea would be to eventually have an entirely HD library...meaning you could watch HD in the bedroom, kitchen, and outdoors.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by El Lancito

I'm sorry, but I don't think that anybody can accuse me of being a fanboy, and I defended it. I have hundreds of DVDs, and if there's going to be a relatively inexpensive technology that will make them look even better than the standard upconversion, then I'm all for it.

What I'd like even more, of course, is an affordable Blu-Ray player that has super-upconversion. (Or better yet, an affordable dual format player with super-upconversion!)

You defended the strategy of making upconversion awesome. That's not fanboyism. You have clearly stated that you want HDM. Fanboyism is supporting Toshiba's drive to subvert HDM because it lost the war. Ruined is saying it's a business move. That's fine, and Toshiba should do whatever it feels is best for its company.

What I am up-in-arms about are people on this forum that were gung ho about HDM, and say that their hatred for blu-ray was DRM now are jumping on the Toshiba bandwagon yet again to support upconversion over HDM. These people are not HDM supporter, but are fanboys. Do you see the difference? I, too, would like blu-ray players to have the best upconversion possible. I do NOT want to see Ruined come on the boards and say now that upconversion is mathematically identical to HDM, and that listening to high def audio is just a placebo effect that no one really hears the difference.

All of us welcome good upconversion for our old dvd movies. Most of us don't want HDM to die because of Toshiba's new strategy. Only the fanboys wish that.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by sub780lime

but upconversion will only look so good and the idea would be to eventually have an entirely HD library...meaning you could watch HD in the bedroom, kitchen, and outdoors.

I understand that. You are missing my point. While the world (not just you and I) waits for BR to not only drop it's prices of both HW and SW, AND make a killer BR player that upcons in a killer way, the SUC can be had. Again though, this to me is only a great option if super CHEAP.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

I understand that. You are missing my point. While the world (not just you and I) waits for BR to not only drop it's prices of both HW and SW, AND make a killer BR player that upcons in a killer way, the SUC can be had. Again though, this to me is only a great option if super CHEAP.

The question is whether SUC is the future of the media? Toshiba will lose dvd revenues if downloads take over. It's not enough for them to just prop up a format that even though it is still dominant, has not shown growth in the last few years. HDM is the growth format, and studios and CE's know that. BD players will keep growing. As more and more people watch high def movies, upconverted dvds will not look good to them. Granted, I have not seen these supposed massive improvements from these chips that the XA2 and integra receivers have, but do they REALLY equal high def? I don't think so. The more people watch high def, the more they can see the difference.

We can all be in support for better upconvert abilities for bd players. With ever evolving specs for the players, perhaps a 2.5 profile bd player will require those chips that make dvds supposedly as good as HDM. Perhaps there's one way that Toshiba can get a piece of the pie.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by ganthc

The question is whether SUC is the future of the media?

No it's not, at least from my perspective. It's simply an interim. I'm in no way saying Suc is the 'future' just a good in betweener (<--new word!) while J6P gets into it*

*HD via BR

Stop misunderstanding me people. STOP!

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

No it's not, at least from my perspective. It's simply an interim. I'm in no way saying Suc is the 'future' just a good in betweener (<--new word!) while J6P gets into it*

*HD via BR

Stop misunderstanding me people. STOP!

Yes, but the issue here is that Toshiba is staking another marketing venture on this interim deal. Instead of embracing HDM, it is banking on a temporary stopgap. Yet another miscalculation. Even you feel that it's not the future...so for most companies, it would be a bad investment. Sour grapes seems to be the "strategery" for Toshiba.

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

Stop misunderstanding me people. STOP!

Make some Damn sense!

Spoiler (Highlight or Triple Click to Read):

Bitch!

...and no, I had nothing constructive to add.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yes, but the issue here is that Toshiba is staking another marketing venture on this interim deal.

"Marketing" ? You realize how silly that statement is? Right? Do you honestly think they will market this better than their last attempt?

Stopgap...yes. The REAL issue is, if stopgap, how long will that stopgap work to their advantage. It could be a long time. (I'm getting happy and my debating skills are sliding..not that they were good to begin with, so ... so ... so screw it, have a great night!)

[Hayrab]

Anyone notice that people are assuming this "super upconversion" will be some major revelation in picture quality? How many times have we been burned by crap like "superbit" etc... I find it funny that so many are jumping on this bandwagon and we don't even have doctored comparison pictures from Toshiba yet!

[Shadowman82]

That's exactly what I've been saying , it probably won't be anything we haven't seen in other good up-converting players . Maybe it's the same thing we see in current HD-DVD players and Toshiba just decided to transplant it into their SD DVD players and give it a fancy name .

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

Blu-ray players may at this point not have very good upconversion but one could just get a SD DVD player , there are lots around