Toshiba: New strategy to make HDM irrelevant to J6P

[ganthc]

Yeah, I do wonder about the download phenomenon of music and how it will apply to movies. Downloaded tracks are convenient because music is a mobile entertainment outlet. Movies, as a rule, are watched in the living room or bedroom. Sure there is a growing number of people that like to watch POTC on their iPhones or in the family minivan, but are those people really going to be buying movies in bulk as with disc media?

Download files caught on because mp3 players are easier to carry around, and more music can be fit on one device rather than having to switch discs when looking for another song you want to hear. But that type of search is not as necessary with movies...well, except maybe pr0n. If you are watching a movie, you aren't switching at the 5th chapter to watch some other movie. You aren't making custom discs or playlists to play your favorite movie scenes.

I think a lot of the business case successes of download music do not carry over to download movies.

[chlngr1970]

I gotta agree with ganthc. I don't want to see movie downloads become the norm, and am hoping that the desire to watch in a theater environment ( Hence the whole need for a Home Theater ) trumps the , what will become convienence, of downloads.

Now, if you can archive a download on some sort of physical media, and it looks as good as the hi-def optical media out now, then I might not mind. Specially when my neighborhood gets fiber optic. Much higher download speeds and excelent quality, with the ability to archive, will get me on board.

j

[Shadowman82]

I don't think we have to worry about movie downloads becoming the norm anytime soon , at least not in anything approaching Blu-ray quality .

I also don't think this Toshiba upconversion thing will take hold . J6P if they even know what upconversion is isn't really smart enough to differentiate between so so upconversion and good upconversion . So even if this new Toshiba technology is better than any upconversion we have now it won't matter to J6P .

As far as the image processing features go that come with this new technology , generally history has shown that that kind of stuff does more harm than good .

[Mr. Furious]

Strangely enough, I prefer to have physical media when I buy it, but then playing it back, it isn't as important. At least for movies, I enjoy going to my shelves, browsing through, and picking out the movie I'm going to watch. I don't have that same attachment to music, but for some reason I do with Video.

I agree with Ganthc on the tracks and pr0n though. Seems like he knows a little too much about that though.

[biglyle]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

I agree with Ganthc on the tracks and pr0n though. Seems like he knows a little too much about that though.

Bet ya he's an excellent left handed only typer as well

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yeah, I do wonder about the download phenomenon of music and how it will apply to movies. Downloaded tracks are convenient because music is a mobile entertainment outlet. Movies, as a rule, are watched in the living room or bedroom. Sure there is a growing number of people that like to watch POTC on their iPhones or in the family minivan, but are those people really going to be buying movies in bulk as with disc media?

Download files caught on because mp3 players are easier to carry around, and more music can be fit on one device rather than having to switch discs when looking for another song you want to hear. But that type of search is not as necessary with movies...well, except maybe pr0n. If you are watching a movie, you aren't switching at the 5th chapter to watch some other movie. You aren't making custom discs or playlists to play your favorite movie scenes.

I think a lot of the business case successes of download music do not carry over to download movies.

You are missing a lot of the key functionality points that make movie downloads attractive:

* No clutter - no need to have those unsightly DVD boxes. This will be a big win for some people, or their significant others. To eliminate the shelf of boxes will win over some for sure - you could own 1000 titles and have 0 cases or storage containers.

* Easier to "browse." Someone mentioned they enjoyed browsing their movies. Well, with the right online interface you can browse easier than you could with physical media. You could sort by director, actor, genre, release date, etc, and find a movie that suits you - basically IMDB built into the download software. You can't do that dynamically with physical media. A good online implementation will also have the cover in high quality and then the contents of what would normally be on the back easily visible. So you don't lose any info, and you make finding an interesting title much easier.

* More convenient - you don't need to go to the store anymore to buy or rent a DVD. Instead, you get it from your couch and have it ready to play within 30mins. Again, with the right implementation, you could get instant feedback on critical reviews of the title as well as user reviews via a few remote clicks. In the near future cablecos will have the ability to rent you movies directly off the TV commericals for that movie, which will be downloaded to your cable box for you to watch later.

* Cheaper - Even a cheap DVD usually runs about $10. Online rentals will go for $5. And while one of us may argue that unlimited plays and owning media is worth $10, J6P may argue that he will only watch the movie once anyway so the $5 option is better. Heck, even if he wanted to watch it twice he would still break even. A lot of the downsides of rental such as late fees and having to drive back to the store (or mail stuff back and forth) will be eliminated with this model, and hence I could see renting overtake buying as it was back in the VHS days.

*HD quality - Look at how popular HDTV is, and its far from Blu-ray. I believe J6P will not care if its BD quality, so long as its "HD."

All it really boils down to now is someone making the right software combined with the right hardware and the studio support to do it; speed will be a non-issue within a year or two IMO. None of the download ventures are yet this capable of what I described above, but like any software, over the next few years I believe one of the software giants will nail the implemenation.

[Mikado]

Originally Posted by Ruined

All it really boils down to now is someone making the right software combined with the right hardware and the studio support to do it; speed will be a non-issue within a year or two IMO. None of the download ventures are yet this capable of what I described above, but like any software, over the next few years I believe one of the software giants will nail the implemenation.

Maybe Toshiba should focus on that.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Mikado

Maybe Toshiba should focus on that.

If you read the whole interview, they stated they are also focusing on the download realm. The SD2HD thing just become more prevalent because it more directly impacts HDM and in a shorter timeframe.

Remember, Toshiba is in kahoots with Microsoft, and MS is one of the best software developers that exists. If anyone can come up with an awesome download box, those two could.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

You are missing a lot of the key functionality points that make movie downloads attractive:

* No clutter - no need to have those unsightly DVD boxes. This will be a big win for some people, or their significant others. To eliminate the shelf of boxes will win over some for sure - you could own 1000 titles and have 0 cases or storage containers.

* Easier to "browse." Someone mentioned they enjoyed browsing their movies. Well, with the right online interface you can browse easier than you could with physical media. You could sort by director, actor, genre, release date, etc, and find a movie that suits you - basically IMDB built into the download software. You can't do that dynamically with physical media. A good online implementation will also have the cover in high quality and then the contents of what would normally be on the back easily visible. So you don't lose any info, and you make finding an interesting title much easier.

* More convenient - you don't need to go to the store anymore to buy or rent a DVD. Instead, you get it from your couch and have it ready to play within 30mins. Again, with the right implementation, you could get instant feedback on critical reviews of the title as well as user reviews via a few remote clicks. In the near future cablecos will have the ability to rent you movies directly off the TV commericals for that movie, which will be downloaded to your cable box for you to watch later.

* Cheaper - Even a cheap DVD usually runs about $10. Online rentals will go for $5. And while one of us may argue that unlimited plays and owning media is worth $10, J6P may argue that he will only watch the movie once anyway so the $5 option is better. Heck, even if he wanted to watch it twice he would still break even. A lot of the downsides of rental such as late fees and having to drive back to the store (or mail stuff back and forth) will be eliminated with this model, and hence I could see renting overtake buying as it was back in the VHS days.

*HD quality - Look at how popular HDTV is, and its far from Blu-ray. I believe J6P will not care if its BD quality, so long as its "HD."

All it really boils down to now is someone making the right software combined with the right hardware and the studio support to do it; speed will be a non-issue within a year or two IMO. None of the download ventures are yet this capable of what I described above, but like any software, over the next few years I believe one of the software giants will nail the implemenation.

The thing is this model is already being offered via cable companies with Pay-per-view, On Demand, etc. And yet, owning movies on disc still trumps those setups. There is a profound sense of pride in ownership of movies...and the displaying of those movies. People who I would consider j6p are always envious and amazed with my collection...and it's not even as massive as some on this forum. My parents are also j6p'ers and they too are big on ownership. They don't use payperview, and instead rent from BB/HV or just buy the movies.

I'm not saying the eventual move won't be to downloads, but I don't see it as being the 1-2 years that you are predicting. The avenues for your type of setup are currently out there, and they are not as popular as physical media. I am unwilling to align the music and movie entertainment delivery systems at this point.

[MooglePorn]

Originally Posted by Ruined

You are missing a lot of the key functionality points that make movie downloads attractive:

* No clutter - no need to have those unsightly DVD boxes. This will be a big win for some people, or their significant others. To eliminate the shelf of boxes will win over some for sure - you could own 1000 titles and have 0 cases or storage containers.

* Easier to "browse." Someone mentioned they enjoyed browsing their movies. Well, with the right online interface you can browse easier than you could with physical media. You could sort by director, actor, genre, release date, etc, and find a movie that suits you - basically IMDB built into the download software. You can't do that dynamically with physical media. A good online implementation will also have the cover in high quality and then the contents of what would normally be on the back easily visible. So you don't lose any info, and you make finding an interesting title much easier.

* More convenient - you don't need to go to the store anymore to buy or rent a DVD. Instead, you get it from your couch and have it ready to play within 30mins. Again, with the right implementation, you could get instant feedback on critical reviews of the title as well as user reviews via a few remote clicks. In the near future cablecos will have the ability to rent you movies directly off the TV commericals for that movie, which will be downloaded to your cable box for you to watch later.

* Cheaper - Even a cheap DVD usually runs about $10. Online rentals will go for $5. And while one of us may argue that unlimited plays and owning media is worth $10, J6P may argue that he will only watch the movie once anyway so the $5 option is better. Heck, even if he wanted to watch it twice he would still break even. A lot of the downsides of rental such as late fees and having to drive back to the store (or mail stuff back and forth) will be eliminated with this model, and hence I could see renting overtake buying as it was back in the VHS days.

*HD quality - Look at how popular HDTV is, and its far from Blu-ray. I believe J6P will not care if its BD quality, so long as its "HD."

All it really boils down to now is someone making the right software combined with the right hardware and the studio support to do it; speed will be a non-issue within a year or two IMO. None of the download ventures are yet this capable of what I described above, but like any software, over the next few years I believe one of the software giants will nail the implemenation.

Yes! This needs to happen tomorrow...

That said, the "cheaper" aspect has not happened in download services as of yet... It's cheaper to amazon a game than to buy it on Steam for instance, which is weird and insane, but true.

[Mr. Furious]

As long as downloads are rediculously high priced and chock full of DRM, they'll be a non-starter for me.

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by Mr. Furious

As long as downloads are rediculously high priced and chock full of DRM, they'll be a non-starter for me.

For most. Unless you can cut all that manufacturing cost out and pass it on to the consumer, I would much rather own my media in some kind of hard copy.

[No6PackJoe]

Originally Posted by ganthc

The thing is this model is already being offered via cable companies with Pay-per-view, On Demand, etc. And yet, owning movies on disc still trumps those setups. There is a profound sense of pride in ownership of movies...and the displaying of those movies. People who I would consider j6p are always envious and amazed with my collection...and it's not even as massive as some on this forum. My parents are also j6p'ers and they too are big on ownership. They don't use payperview, and instead rent from BB/HV or just buy the movies.

I'm not saying the eventual move won't be to downloads, but I don't see it as being the 1-2 years that you are predicting. The avenues for your type of setup are currently out there, and they are not as popular as physical media. I am unwilling to align the music and movie entertainment delivery systems at this point.

Wow, I agree 100%. there is no pride of ownership of having files on your computer/media server, it doesn't have the wow factor when someone comes over and sees your vast collection.

I guess if every possible movie ever made was available online, i would be temped if they were high quality, but as of right now only a very few movies are available, hell I'm still waiting for tons that never made it to DVD from LD or VHS, and BD is lacking in that department as well.

[MooglePorn]

Originally Posted by No6PackJoe

Wow, I agree 100%. there is no pride of ownership of having files on your computer/media server, it doesn't have the wow factor when someone comes over and sees your vast collection.

I'm hoping this kind of "look how big my dick is" thinking is only for HT enthusiasts though, and the mass market won't care.

Hell, they already don't care about music and games, so why would they care about movies?

Honestly I'm down to less than 200 DVDs now and even those I look at as something to HIDE, not show off.

[Shadowman82]

I don't think that's true , Blu-ray sales are growing at a faster rate than DVD was at this time in it's lifespan .

[DVD-NUTTA]

This whole Atsutoshi Nishida/ Toshiba thing is a joke, one that is wearing very thin very fast. Just visit blu-devil dot com to see what i think of this whole 'super upconverting dvd BOLLOCKS. As i said there it stinks of sour grapes and bitterness. Hell hath no fury like a CEO scorned.What is even sadder is that people on a so called HI-DEF Forum are even entertaining this shite. HDDVD lost get over it lets move on. Half of the posters here would'nt know what a DRM was if it squatted on there face. Bitter little hddvd fanboys who have realised their favourite toy is now obselete. If you dont support HD or want HD to survive go back to the SD forums where you may feel more comfortable and take your super up converting pile of festering Turd with you. And as i have stated in blu-devil dot com true HD fans (Blu-Boys) bring your friends round break open some beers and show j6p just how fantastic TRUE HD is. Also RUINED you've changed sides more times than PARAMOUNT what is with you man?? as Chris Tucker says in Rush Hour 3 your a movie fan stop humilliating yourself. Rant over nuff said

[Derb]

Some really really really great SD transfers could trick jsp's eye but not mine.

The problemo with Toshiba's thinking process is they believe DVDs are the only future other than HD DVD. So upcon dvds & you can't tell the difference between 480 & 1080?

Shit, thats like saying the Nintendo Wii looks better on a 16x9 display than a 360 or PS3. Yeah, makes no sense.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by MooglePorn

Honestly I'm down to less than 200 DVDs now and even those I look at as something to HIDE, not show off.

I hear ya.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by DVD-NUTTA

This whole Atsutoshi Nishida/ Toshiba thing is a joke, one that is wearing very thin very fast. Just visit blu-devil dot com to see what i think of this whole 'super upconverting dvd BOLLOCKS. As i said there it stinks of sour grapes and bitterness. Hell hath no fury like a CEO scorned.What is even sadder is that people on a so called HI-DEF Forum are even entertaining this shite. HDDVD lost get over it lets move on. Half of the posters here would'nt know what a DRM was if it squatted on there face. Bitter little hddvd fanboys who have realised their favourite toy is now obselete. If you dont support HD or want HD to survive go back to the SD forums where you may feel more comfortable and take your super up converting pile of festering Turd with you. And as i have stated in blu-devil dot com true HD fans (Blu-Boys) bring your friends round break open some beers and show j6p just how fantastic TRUE HD is.

This post is full of irony. Super Upconverting is a joke thats no more than a CEO's "sour grapes", yet Super Upconverting is also at the same time some huge threat to HDM's "survival," makes you go off on a tirade, and make you blog about it? Yeah, okay.

Also RUINED you've changed sides more times than PARAMOUNT what is with you man?? as Chris Tucker says in Rush Hour 3 your a movie fan stop humilliating yourself. Rant over nuff said

I SOLIDLY supported one format for 1.5 years and didn't even ENTERTAIN even going neutral until it was blatently obvious that the format was dead. Unlike some others who flip-flopped with the wind based on the news every few months. Any who post here regularly would attest to that. Plus, at least I had the balls to pick a format back in mid-2006 - I guess you, on the other hand, wouldn't have to worry about flip-flopping at all considering you haven't even owned HDM for 6 months yet (October 2007). So, try again.

Also, I find it even more hilarious that you accuse others of being "bitter," "sour grapes," etc and then YOU are the one to go on a rampage generalizing and insulting people. Grow up, some people want more for their big DVD collections than is offered by the piss-poor upconversion of the PS3, BD30, S300 and other popular BD players under $1k that are good at BD but suck ass at DVD.

[chlngr1970]

Ok, lets get it back on topic.

Thanks

j

[Mikado]

So, since this isn't a high def player and just an upconverting player, move it to the standard definition hardware forum?

[tomdkat]

I haven't read most of the comments in this thread but the few I have read seem to "suffer" from the same issue the arguments I had with MRSMITH partially centered around. MRSMITH argued upconverted SD-DVD was "good enough" for J6P and he felt HDM needed to offer "more". What he missed, and what the comments I've read this far miss is: audio

How can a near perfect upconverted SD-DVD outperform Dolby TrueHD or PCM audio? It's not like the audio on existing DVDs will be touched. Upconversion is purely a video thing. Sure, you can argue all day that an upconverted SD image can look close enough to native HD video that most won't be able to tell the difference but you can't say the same thing about audio on SD-DVD vs HD DVD or Blu-Ray movie releases (at least a good number of them).

In fact, let's take one title as an example: Batman Begins. How can Batman Begins on SD-DVD, upconverted to the highest quality HD resolution possible, compete with the same title on HD DVD or Blu-Ray? The Dolby TrueHD audio on the HD DVD release blew me away.

Peace...

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I haven't read most of the comments in this thread but the few I have read seem to "suffer" from the same issue the arguments I had with MRSMITH partially centered around. MRSMITH argued upconverted SD-DVD was "good enough" for J6P and he felt HDM needed to offer "more". What he missed, and what the comments I've read this far miss is: audio

How can a near perfect upconverted SD-DVD outperform Dolby TrueHD or PCM audio? It's not like the audio on existing DVDs will be touched. Upconversion is purely a video thing. Sure, you can argue all day that an upconverted SD image can look close enough to native HD video that most won't be able to tell the difference but you can't say the same thing about audio on SD-DVD vs HD DVD or Blu-Ray movie releases (at least a good number of them).

In fact, let's take one title as an example: Batman Begins. How can Batman Begins on SD-DVD, upconverted to the highest quality HD resolution possible, compete with the same title on HD DVD or Blu-Ray? The Dolby TrueHD audio on the HD DVD release blew me away.

It is true that the formats on HD DVD/BD offer higher fidelity since DVDs are often only encoded 384-448kbps DD - which is not enough to be transparent (need about 1.5mbps for a 5.1 lossy codec to be audibly transparent).

However, the problem is that I would wager most people either use the speakers on their TV or a home theater in a box. In either of these cases, there is going to be zero audible difference between BD and DVD - and this is likely the majority of J6P's audio setups.

IMO, if anything is going to sell to J6P its going to be video quality or functionality/interactivity improvements. The audio quality gain simply isn't enough that can be detected on the typical J6P audio setup.

[plissken99]

Originally Posted by Ruined