Toshiba: New strategy to make HDM irrelevant to J6P

[Ruined]

Looks like Toshiba's mission will be to make Blu-ray fail by using its muscle with SD DVDs combined with super upcons.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120450428955606405.html

If you watch stand DVD's on our players, the image quality is very high quality because they include an 'upconverting' feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD. The player would be much cheaper than Blu-ray players too..."

So the focus will be on making upconversion so good that J6P doesn't care whether it is HDM and can just buy the cheaper, more plentiful SD DVD's and get, to the average consumer, the same result...

Now that HD DVD has lost, Toshiba is going to protect its SD DVD investment through the method of superior upconversion. Likely will include Reon/Realta players as well as super-upconverts in the future. Not a big surprise here for me.

Will the death of HD DVD result in permanent niche status of Blu-ray? We'll see...

I'll tell you one thing, though. I've went over Toshiba's plans for super upconversion, and from what I've read and seen on the technology it is a very real possibility that J6P will not be able to tell the difference between super upcon SD DVD and BD on anything smaller than a 100" screen. It is ahead of even Reon & Realta believe it or not.

[Astrakan]

Hopefully this will push manufacturers of Blu-Ray players to include stellar SD upconversion in their BR players...

KM

[biglyle]

So Toshiba thought HD was worth it as long it was their format and players that were playing it? Now that they have lost, standard def upconverted is good enough? Are they going to upconvert the audio as well?

This should send a clear message to anyone still thinking Toshiba is the the victim in all this, and to anyone who thinks they are the ultimate consumer friendly company. Their format failed and now they want everyone to take a step back as a result and put up with an inferior product, because at least they are the ones making it. This is a pathetic move on Toshiba's part. As someone who was an early adopter to HD-DVD and a supported of the product this is a big time slap in the face. My days of Toshiba ownership are over.

[El Lancito]

If (and that's the key word here) Toshiba can actually make this happen, then that's good news for those of us with large DVD collections. Personally, I hope that it'll happen.

[Ruined]

This was one of the reasons I supported HD DVD. The combo disc allowed Toshiba to continue getting their SD DVD royalties, so they could sell hidef and stddef to the same customer using a single SKU combo package. I knew that Toshiba wasn't going to roll over and let their DVD royalties die, so now they are going to try to convince & confuse J6P into buying one of their Super Upcons... Blu-ray's task of defeating DVD is much harder as to date they have failed to put out a viable BD combo disc. Will be interesting if Toshiba can get the idea to float with J6P.

[elfman]

Originally Posted by biglyle

heir format failed and now they want everyone to take a step back as a result and put up with an inferior product, because at least they are the ones making it. This is a pathetic move on Toshiba's part.

I think you're missing the point here. They aren't asking any of us committed to HDM to "take a step back", but are instead finding a way for J6P to take at least "a half step up". BR will still be there for those who want it, but since most average users won't take that full step now, is not a 1/2 step a logical way to proceed?

[plissken99]

Well this absolutly sucks! They didn't win so now no one gets to enjoy true HD on disc, as far as their concerned. I can't go back to DVD, the transfers have gotten worse these days. You been seeing new releases on DVD? The studios are phoning in transfers(I've got 4 year old DVDs that look better than some new movies), and DTS is no where to be found.

Also funny, Toshiba said they were going to continue support of their HD DVD players with new firmware. Well the latest 2.8 has proven disasterous for many people, and Tosh said before their announcement they were working on a new firmware. Well now, they claim there's no problem, so no need for another upgrade.

Toshiba is officially on my shit list.

[jbat31]

i, personally am happy with this, not because i want sd dvd to always be on top, but because it gives me options. There are a lot of titles, i would buy the sd version too if it were cheaper. I sitll go and buy a ton of the weekly five and six dollar titles at best buy and cc if they are titles I do not personally care to have in hd

I mean, if they can actually make a dvd look almost identical to an hd version, why not.

That being said, I have a ps3 and an hd a2 and will continue to buy high def stuff for them, but his gives me an option on a title by title basis

[chlngr1970]

So, dirty and underhanded is only ok if the BDA does it? I say good for them! I hope Blu Ray founders now that J6P can make his/her DVDs look alomst as good for a fraction of the cost.

j

[videoworx]

Laughable. Toshiba will fail with this strategy, just as they did with HD-DVD. Without support from other CEs, this isn't going anywhere.

Hey, if j6p prefers lesser video and audio quality, more power to them. I'll take "better" over "good enough" any day.

[Shadowman82]

How ridicolous . almost pathethic .

[biglyle]

Originally Posted by chlngr1970

So, dirty and underhanded is only ok if the BDA does it? I say good for them! I hope Blu Ray founders now that J6P can make his/her DVDs look alomst as good for a fraction of the cost.

j

Nothing dirty or underhanded at all. I would call it more along the lines of pathetic and unrealistic. Hopefully their marketing campaign for this is as strong as their campaign for HD-DVD was.
Honestly man, if you are being serious with your post then I strongly have to question your ability to moderate a forum without prejudice. Surely you cant be serious?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by biglyle

Nothing dirty or underhanded at all. I would call it more along the lines of pathetic and unrealistic. Hopefully their marketing campaign for this is as strong as their campaign for HD-DVD was.
Honestly man, if you are being serious with your post then I strongly have to question your ability to moderate a forum without prejudice. Surely you cant be serious?

Well, if Super Upconvert looks near-HD and costs half the price of a BD player, how is a Walmart salesman going to convince J6P to spend $100+ more on a BD player? And then on top of it spend $10-$20 more per movie and also requiring the person to rebuy their DVD library... Some people may buy into BD, but I think others will just want a "FullHD DVD player."

The new upconv technology Tosh is coming out with is able to intelligently analyze and adapt to each frame individually. It does stuff like apply intelligent DNR to only specific portions of the frame to remove mpeg artifacts and EE halos while not reducing detail signficantly, and at the same time use EE intelligently to increase sharpness without creating halos. Its definitely not as good as Blu-ray, but it may be just the ticket for J6P looking to get HD cheap. Current techniques use things like DNR/EE across the whole frame resulting in loss of detail or artifacting, the difference here is the technology can attack certain parts of each frame while leaving other parts untouched. I have seen certain still image filters that do this (and do a great job), it will be interesting to see what this type of intelligent filter can do with a motion picture.

I think it will boil down to both marketing and economics. Even with the best marketing it might be tough to convince J6P to buy a new player for $199 and then inform him he needs to rebuy all of his movies at $20-$30 a pop in order to benefit from them, while on the shelf next to it there is a player that looks nearly as good and works with all of his existing movies and costs half the price to get in to. Either way, Toshiba's strategy will likely slow HDM adoption.

[biglyle]

You can upconvert till the cows come home, but 480p is still 480p. You cant create information that isnt there. Yes, it might be cleaner looking than standard DVD buts its far from HD quality, never mind the audio differences. Legally, upconverting players should not even be able to use the term HD in their player names as it is very misleading and does nothing but confuse already confused consumers even further.
I also dont see how the "J6P will have to buy all his movies over again" line has any relevance. His standard DVD's will still work in the real HD players. This is clearly Toshiba taking a step backwards. HD was clearly better when they were selling it, but now that they got their asses handed to them HD isnt necessary anymore?
How anyone here, who has watched HD media and supported the HD format can accept this is beyond me.

[videoworx]

Clearly, if Toshiba's upconversion gimmick catches on, other CEs will simply add their own version of it to Blu-Ray players. They won't just stand by and watch Toshiba try and fuck everyone over again.

[Hayrab]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Looks like Toshiba's mission will be to make Blu-ray fail by using its muscle with SD DVDs combined with super upcons.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120450428955606405.html



Now that HD DVD has lost, Toshiba is going to protect its SD DVD investment through the method of superior upconversion. Likely will include Reon/Realta players as well as super-upconverts in the future. Not a big surprise here for me.

Will the death of HD DVD result in permanent niche status of Blu-ray? We'll see...

I'll tell you one thing, though. I've went over Toshiba's plans for super upconversion, and from what I've read and seen on the technology it is a very real possibility that J6P will not be able to tell the difference between super upcon SD DVD and BD on anything smaller than a 100" screen. It is ahead of even Reon & Realta believe it or not.

Ohhh, now its SUPER UPCON! we have a new buzz term!

This will work for any person without a large tv/projector, but BR isn't really playing to that crowd anyway.

Sorry, just can't make 480p look anywhere near 1080p once you get passed 50". I guess Toshiba just loves pissing money away.

[Shadowman82]

I would agree that you can upconvert only so much , it's still not going to be HD . On a larger TV this will be apparent .

[Mr. Furious]

Regardless of their motivations, the technology will be nice FOR ALL OF US. I have a library of thousands of discs and I'd be in the market for a player that could do a killer job of taking that material and making it look even better on an HDTV.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by biglyle

You can upconvert till the cows come home, but 480p is still 480p. You cant create information that isnt there.

Of course you can create informaton that isn't there. That is what upconverting is all about. The key is that you CAN create information that isn't there, its just that the "between pixel" information generated may not necessarily be true to actual information that should be there from the original film.

Yes, it might be cleaner looking than standard DVD buts its far from HD quality,

The question is, will it give the same "HD Pop" effect that BD does using standard DVDs. If it accomplishes that, it may be a hot seller.

never mind the audio differences.

For most people I believe the audio differences between DVD and HiDef will be unnoticable. Most use HTIBs or the speakers on their TV, so hearing the difference between DD 448kbps and TrueHD is going to be tough when you start with poor sound reproduction off the bat.

Legally, upconverting players should not even be able to use the term HD in their player names as it is very misleading and does nothing but confuse already confused consumers even further.

Again, this is DVD Forum territory which Toshiba heads. Now that HD DVD is dead, there is no incentive for Toshiba to create such a policy since it would hurt their own nest egg. Instead, now they will probably go full-on with FullHD, Super Upcon DVD, etc.

I also dont see how the "J6P will have to buy all his movies over again" line has any relevance. His standard DVD's will still work in the real HD players.

They will work, but with the terrible upconversion of most BD players it won't look anywhere near HD. Super upcon may get you "HD Pop" without paying HD prices.

This is clearly Toshiba taking a step backwards.

Considering they don't have a share in BD royalties, that is the appropriate step for them to take as a company. Now that HD DVD is dead, they will have to pull out all the guns to attempt entrench DVD as J6P's format not only now but in the future too. Unless Sony cuts Toshiba a deal for royalties just like they cut other manufs/studios deals, I'd expect Toshiba to continue to be aggressive in promoting super upcon DVD players.

HD was clearly better when they were selling it, but now that they got their asses handed to them HD isnt necessary anymore?

If you recall, Toshiba's HD DVD strategy always included standard DVD. That is why combo and twindisc existed. They did not want to kill off DVD royalties - HD DVD was Toshiba's way to deliver HD to the enthusiasts and SD to J6P all in the same disc and player. It didn't work out, so now Toshiba's best bet is to protect DVD royalties as long as possible and in any way they can since they have no hand in BD royalties.

How anyone here, who has watched HD media and supported the HD format can accept this is beyond me.

I'm not sure how anyone following the war could not expect this. Toshiba is simply protecting one of their biggest moneymakers. It is possible Microsoft may do the same thing and just ignore BD in an attempt to relegate the format to niche status instead of making a BD addon, which would be a simple affair. Why help out the competitor when your console doesn't need it at all for its primary function?

Also, I'd love to have super upcon... My DVD library dwarfs my BD library, and some movies will likely never come out on BD.

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Will the death of HD DVD result in permanent niche status of Blu-ray? We'll see...

If Toshiba tries to angle these players as BD alternatives in marketing the BDA needs to directly attack them and the failure of HD DVD with their marketing.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

If Toshiba tries to angle these players as BD alternatives in marketing the BDA needs to directly attack them and the failure of HD DVD with their marketing.

Like I said, though, BD may create a perception that it is better than super upcon (like they did with HD DVD), but whether that perception gets J6P to buy a more expensive player and all new more expensive movies is another story. He may be impressed enough with super upcon that the extra cost for BD even if it is better may be deemed not worth it.

Again, it will boil down to marketing and economics. If America enters a recession Toshiba might have a shot of delaying or outright capsizing BD mass adoption with their strategy. Remember, just having HD DVD out there was enough to supposedly confuse customers into not buying either... Now Toshiba has a brand new marketing name and strategy to compete with Blu-ray.

Warner pulled the plug on HD DVD because they felt the HDM war was impacting DVD sales and preventing transition to a new format. If sales of DVD continue to be affected by HDM and Blu-ray sales continue to be less than 10% of DVD due to things like Super Upcon confusion/muddling the market (essentially starting a new war), who will Warner be next to pull the plug on in order to restore movie sales? Their 90%+ DVD share or the miniscule BD share? Remember, these are studios that were even too fearful to put out a single SKU HD DVD/DVD combo, nevermind pull the plug on DVD entirely. And Warner has no control over the type of player hardware that comes out for DVD. That is probably the angle Toshiba is looking at now.

[biglyle]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Like I said, though, BD may create a perception that it is better than super upcon (like they did with HD DVD)

Lets be clear on one thing here, there is no perception that BR is better than upconverted DVD. This is a fact, plain and simple. BR and HDDVD = the same thing imo.
You can get a Hollywood make up artist to spend three days getting the ugly girl ready for the prom. Yes she will look good when he's done, but you still know damn well you are out with the ugly girl.

[Taxi]

Originally Posted by Ruined

For most people I believe the audio differences between DVD and HiDef will be unnoticable. Most use HTIBs or the speakers on their TV, so hearing the difference between DD 448kbps and TrueHD is going to be tough when you start with poor sound reproduction off the bat.

So why cater to the lowest common denominator?

biglyle: it's not your place to question who does or does not moderate this forum. I'd appreciate it if you would not do so again.

[biglyle]

Originally Posted by Taxi

biglyle: it's not your place to question who does or does not moderate this forum. I'd appreciate it if you would not do so again.

understood.

[Iguana Man]

Well one, 'we' don't know how much this new fangled up con is costing Toshi. It could be they had it in development in conjunction with their HD efforts and possibly had ramped up efforts in it while s/w sales were sliding in the HD/BR war. I can see that easily.

Two, why wouldn't Toshi try this tactic if it pans out to be what it says: super upcon. I would and I'm not some mega company. Think about it. They lost, they are bitter and fuck it. If I cant win the HD war, I'll sure as shit try and undermine Sony with their 'win'. We all agree that J6P is oblivious to the war, we all pretty much agree they haven't bought into upgrading yet, so why not protect your SD interests while screwing the competition that beat you?

I'll be VERY honest here. While I love the 'pop' and clarity improvements of HD and BR, that improvement is negligible given the cost of getting that 'pop' from BR right NOW. Perhaps I'm not the videophile I thought I was. If this super upcon can make my movie on a 52" screen look practically indiscernible to what I have seen in HD, and its CHEAP, I'm all over it. And if I'm all over it, what the hell do you think J6P is gonna do?