BD-Live: Big Brother is watching you - "AACS Online"

[biglyle]

Originally Posted by Wirehed

only this time some of the movie enthusiasts seem to be willing to accept it.

You can put me down in this camp. I honestly could care less. Track me all you want, I really dont give a shit. I watch what i watch and am happy as hell with the quality. I also eat Doritos when I watch movies. If this is of interest to marketers, so be it. As long as my player works and the quality is what i want then they can do what ever they want with protection and tracking.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Wirehed

I don't see what this has to do with HD-DVD.

Moving forward, the current generation of HD content and the future, is challenging us with this type of anti-consumer technology, it's just like DIVX all over again, only this time some of the movie enthusiasts seem to be willing to accept it.

I think it's the idea that this tracking and online monitoring is somehow a blu-ray exclusive feature is what I'm trying to dispell. If hd-dvd had won, this type of behavior would be happening there.

You are right in saying that current and future of HD content may open consumers to marketers and data collection, but it really is no different than what happens to you when you log on to the computer, or if you have cable, I bet Comcast/Verizon/Cox/Time Warner have ways of tracking what programs you watch or what on-demand features you use. Your credit card companies do the same and even sell your purchasing habits to companies. You seem accepting or at least permissive to the tracking of data from those venues, but are shocked that studios may be interested in your interests when watching movies. The "anti-consumerism" you bash HD for is so pervasive in everything else you do, it seems crazy that movies are where you are drawing the line.

I think that videoworx is correct in how online AACS will be used. If you are ripping bd's then you probably won't be able to access the online content.

[Wirehed]

Actually I don't use credit cards and my grocery stores don't have "club cards." Some people find all of that tracking bothersome and some stores strive to stay away from it. Yes, I probably pay more because of it, but that's my choice.

I'm not hysterical about this either, I'm just pointing out that people who ARE upset about the possibilities have a point and discussing those implications are very, very valid.

So far it hasn't stopped me from buying any movies, I'll let you know if it does.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

I think it's the idea that this tracking and online monitoring is somehow a blu-ray exclusive feature is what I'm trying to dispell. If hd-dvd had won, this type of behavior would be happening there.

Even if HD DVD won and AACS Online did come about, it would still be a far less dangerous situation to the consumer because HD DVD was technically not capable of running programs of the studio's choosing natively on the user's player/computer (BD+). The threat of studio-installed software that infects the player/computer or attempts to do things such as revert region-free players to region-locked, etc, remains the biggest threat here. It is the linking of AACS Online with BD+ that makes this a more dangerous situation for Blu-ray users. BD+ was always designed to work hand-in-hand with AACS, and it is no different with AACS Online. Finally, it is important to note that HD DVD did not make any mention of online DRM in its manuals even though every HD DVD player was online-capable from the start; in contrast, the very first Blu-ray online-capable standalone makes note of online DRM in the manual. That would put HD DVD in a more difficult legal & PR area to later add online DRM, as it was not disclosed in the manual with the million+ HD-A1s, A2s, A3s, etc sold - it would be considered a bait and switch tactic. Blu-ray is legally in the clear to add that online DRM, however, because the first Blu-ray player with online features makes it clear in the manual that online DRM is coming.

However, this is all irrelevant because HD DVD is dead. And, just because something similar might have happened on HD DVD doesn't give Blu-ray a free pass. It really means nothing that it might have happened on HD DVD, the facts are that this combined privacy breach + ratcheted-up DRM didn't happen on HD DVD (who cares now) and the groundwork is now laid both technically and legally for it to happen on Blu-ray (important now).

Therefore, the BDA and AACS committee should remain under fire for the underhanded actions they plan to take through the guise of "online features" known as BD-Live. Many will be duped into this without even knowing what they are getting into. I realize some might not care about this situation and its potential, but for those who do it is very important to highlight what they might be losing in exchange for Blu-ray's BD-Live online features.

[videoworx]

It is the linking of AACS Online with BD+ that makes this a more dangerous situation for Blu-ray users.

First of all, it's not dangerous. I've pointed out before that DRM can't turn a PS3 into ED-209. Second, show me where AACS Online (a term you weren't even aware of until a few days ago) specifically links to BD+.

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Dugpa, I will have to look at the manuals again when I get home, but the ones I had for hd-a2/35 had a little picture with the yes marked for cookies, and the instructions seemed to tell people to select yes. I will double check that.

The a2 manual:


The a35 manual:


Neither gives any suggestions one way or the other, unless you're implying that the grey (which is used to reference an earlier image in the section) is them giving a suggestion. In which case by your logic they're also telling people to set their download speed to 1 kbps!

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

It is the linking of AACS Online with BD+ that makes this a more dangerous situation for Blu-ray users that choose to violate the DMCA and illegally rip bd's.

Fixed!

However, this is all irrelevant because HD DVD is dead. And, just because something similar might have happened on HD DVD doesn't give Blu-ray a free pass. It really means nothing that it might have happened on HD DVD, the facts are that this combined privacy breach + ratcheted-up DRM didn't happen on HD DVD (who cares now) and the groundwork is now laid both technically and legally for it to happen on Blu-ray (important now).

No one is giving a free pass, if anything some of us are saying it's no big deal and no different than what you get from other areas of your life (i.e. software on the computer, purchases online, etc.). Maybe you haven't issued "passes" for those areas that do data monitoring/DRM, but for sure you have accepted them and it has not infringed on your ability to purchase things, or perhaps illegally download software programs to circumvent drm there.

Therefore, the BDA and AACS committee should remain under fire for the underhanded actions they plan to take through the guise of "online features" known as BD-Live. Many will be duped into this without even knowing what they are getting into. I realize some might not care about this situation and its potential, but for those who do it is very important to highlight what they might be losing in exchange for Blu-ray's BD-Live online features.

Many will not be impacted by the use of bd+ and aacs online because they will be legally watching their movies. I am not downing you for trying to create a DRM-free society, I am downing you for making this yet another "doom-and-gloom" story about blu-ray, when most of us are trying to enjoy and support a format that is giving us most of what we want, which is 1080p picture and lossless sound. The perpetual "talking down" of the format by linking it to Orwellian evil doesn't jive with me. To me, you can carry on the crusade of eliminating most of DRM without the hyperbole hysteria tied to us watching movies on blu-ray.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by dugpa

Neither gives any suggestions one way or the other, unless you're implying that the grey (which is used to reference an earlier image in the section) is them giving a suggestion. In which case by your logic they're also telling people to set their download speed to 1 kbps!

Ah, I see, and touche about the 1 kbps download speed.

Okay, well, if you look at those pictures, I would say that in both cases of the manual's instructions, the "consequences" of not enabling cookies seems to be that you won't get to watch the online content. As videoworx stated, the may becomes a probability to the reader, and as such, they would think, "hey, if I don't accept them, I will not get to see the content. What the hell, I will enable them." You are correct that it isn't explicit, but I would say the recommendation is less than subtle about which option the consumer should choose.

[Sehnzeleid]

Originally Posted by Sehnzeleid

Also it's not like a person has to connect their player to the Internet, so it's a moot point.

This is the most important thing said so far here.

[Pirate]

I was recently watching my pirated copy of Hanna Montana Live when suddenly there came a knock at the door. Thankfully my FBI disguise (with full mustache) fooled them.

[videoworx]

The perpetual "talking down" of the format by linking it to Orwellian evil doesn't jive with me. To me, you can carry on the crusade of eliminating most of DRM without the hyperbole hysteria tied to us watching movies on blu-ray.

Quoted for truth.

[Wirehed]

It's a valid concern.

[elfman]

Originally Posted by Wirehed

It's a valid concern.

I agree, but apparently I'm an idiot for worrying about it.

Here's a slight analogy: when you download some free software or create an account on some web sites, you are given a check box that allows you to opt out of being contacted about either that site's system or info from their "partners". This is a great way to do it, and sometimes I LIKE getting info from manufacturers about upcoming products, etc. But the key is you have a choice. This is how it has developed on the internet, based on customer preferences and feedback.

What some on here seem to be arguing is that no one should feel a certain way about this... and that's just a bit shy of arrogance, really.

[Hayrab]

Originally Posted by videoworx

The perpetual "talking down" of the format by linking it to Orwellian evil doesn't jive with me. To me, you can carry on the crusade of eliminating most of DRM without the hyperbole hysteria tied to us watching movies on blu-ray.

I've never been able to put it into the right words but I think ganthc finally hit the nail on the head. This is what I feel everytime I read a post from Ruined whether it be a valid concern or not.
I work in IT and would consider myself tech savvy so DRM is just as evil to me as the next geek, but to jump to such conclusions to seemingly bash a format is just childish.

Speaking of which, I own both BR and HD-DVD players.

[videoworx]

Originally Posted by elfman

I agree, but apparently I'm an idiot for worrying about it.

Here's a slight analogy: when you download some free software or create an account on some web sites, you are given a check box that allows you to opt out of being contacted about either that site's system or info from their "partners". This is a great way to do it, and sometimes I LIKE getting info from manufacturers about upcoming products, etc. But the key is you have a choice. This is how it has developed on the internet, based on customer preferences and feedback.

What some on here seem to be arguing is that no one should feel a certain way about this... and that's just a bit shy of arrogance, really.

Where exactly does it state that the proposed AACS Online feature would not give you a choice?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by videoworx

Where exactly does it state that the proposed AACS Online feature would not give you a choice?

When was the last time DRM worked in favor of the paying consumer? When was the last time DRM'd media gave you the option of using it or not? There's your answer, and that's the problem in a nutshell. DRM hurts the paying consumer more than the pirate. We pay for something whose functionality and portability is crippled by DRM, the pirate bittorrents it for free and has infinite functionality & portability. There is no reason to think that studios will start treating us nice all of a sudden when they have treated us like criminals time and time again in the past. They will continue to treat us like criminals until they have no other option but to treat us like good customers (see the music industry).

The quicker this is understood, the quicker it is apparent that you don't need to read 1984 to know that the paying consumer is the one that gets screwed and/or limited by DRM, not the pirate. Why should the one who pays get punished? You would think you'd like to treat the ones who pay nicely, instead of treating them like the criminal who is currently getting a better deal than the paying consumer.

BD+ isn't the only nasty, though it is the biggest one right now, and is further bolstered by AACS Online. HDCP is another piece of work; if you have a PC videocard with two outputs, one going to your PC monitor and the other to your HDTV, HDCP disallows clone mode or span mode. Meaning if you are playing a Blu-ray on your PC with PowerDVD (the only competent PC Blu-ray player to date) you can't have both your PC monitor and HDTV displaying output from the computer at the same time thanks to HDCP, you have to constantly switch back and forth with one monitor or the other having exclusive display output - what genius thought this was a good idea? And i won't even go into all the people who have standard DVI monitors that won't work because they don't support HDCP. All of those paying consumers still being screwed by HDCP while pirates completely bypassed HDCP and made it worthless protection a long time ago by cracking first AACS and then BD+.

We have not yet seen the damage that BD+ can create, but believe me it will boil down to how much the studio can push the envelope without being burned. Couple BD+ with AACS Online and the sky's the limit, now you have executive authority to run any program of your choosing to permanently alter the player and on top of that you have online updating/checking to ensure there is no compromise. That is too much power in the studio's hands and can lead to very bad end results for the consumer, it is just less obvious than HDCP because the studios haven't gotten desperate yet. They will in time, though.

For those feeling Blu-ray is getting picked on, what format would you like me to criticize considering Blu-ray is the only major hidef format that actually exists right now and looks to have the best chance of being mainstreamed? Drum up some good points about HD DVD or D-VHS? Or I know, rag on digital download rentals which cost 1/6th of the price and have less than 1% marketshare, mmm yes that will be effective and applicable. Sounds like being an advocate of the ostrich approach and/or Blu-ray apologist approach instead. Not going to happen with me when I pay a price premium of $20 per disc... Sell me them to me for $5-$10 average and I'll be more open to more restrictive DRM, at least then I'm getting a cash credit for my inconvenience and lack of functionality/portability. At $20 these days, I should be able to insert the Blu-ray in my PC and burn a DVD of it with a few clicks to watch at friend or family members houses who have no Blu-ray player, or in the portable/car DVD player, etc... Easily could be done with transcoding and no loss of space/bandwidth on the BD disc.

As for AACS Online interacting with BD+, obviously if AACS works with BD+ then AACS Online will do the same. Even if AACS Online only works to keep the original AACS more robust through online updates and checks, it is making BD+ more powerful as BD+ works together with AACS. This is common sense.

Finally, for those who think nothing can be done, I both loathe and pity that mindframe. Take a look at Amazon MP3 offering DRM-free music (although your "unique" identifier is watermarked), the Sony rootkit fiasco, or the recent XBOX Live Marketplace DRM policy changes if you want evidence that your voice can be heard if you yell loud enough. If you bend over and take it, though, its just going to keep getting bigger and more uncomfortable as time goes on.

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Pirate

I was recently watching my pirated copy of Hanna Montana Live when suddenly there came a knock at the door. Thankfully my FBI disguise (with full mustache) fooled them.

That wasn't the MPAA, that was the good taste police.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

When was the last time DRM worked in favor of the paying consumer? When was the last time DRM'd media gave you the option of using it or not? There's your answer, and that's the problem in a nutshell. DRM hurts the paying consumer more than the pirate. We pay for something whose functionality and portability is crippled by DRM, the pirate bittorrents it for free and has infinite functionality & portability. There is no reason to think that studios will start treating us nice all of a sudden when they have treated us like criminals time and time again in the past. They will continue to treat us like criminals until they have no other option but to treat us like good customers (see the music industry).

The quicker this is understood, the quicker it is apparent that you don't need to read 1984 to know that the paying consumer is the one that gets screwed and/or limited by DRM, not the pirate. Why should the one who pays get punished? You would think you'd like to treat the ones who pay nicely, instead of treating them like the criminal who is currently getting a better deal than the paying consumer.

BD+ isn't the only nasty, though it is the biggest one right now, and is further bolstered by AACS Online. HDCP is another piece of work; if you have a PC videocard with two outputs, one going to your PC monitor and the other to your HDTV, HDCP disallows clone mode or span mode. Meaning if you are playing a Blu-ray on your PC with PowerDVD (the only competent PC Blu-ray player to date) you can't have both your PC monitor and HDTV displaying output from the computer at the same time thanks to HDCP, you have to constantly switch back and forth with one monitor or the other having exclusive display output - what genius thought this was a good idea? And i won't even go into all the people who have standard DVI monitors that won't work because they don't support HDCP. All of those paying consumers still being screwed by HDCP while pirates completely bypassed HDCP and made it worthless protection a long time ago by cracking first AACS and then BD+.

We have not yet seen the damage that BD+ can create, but believe me it will boil down to how much the studio can push the envelope without being burned. Couple BD+ with AACS Online and the sky's the limit, now you have executive authority to run any program of your choosing to permanently alter the player and on top of that you have online updating/checking to ensure there is no compromise. That is too much power in the studio's hands and can lead to very bad end results for the consumer, it is just less obvious than HDCP because the studios haven't gotten desperate yet. They will in time, though.

For those feeling Blu-ray is getting picked on, what format would you like me to criticize considering Blu-ray is the only major hidef format that actually exists right now and looks to have the best chance of being mainstreamed? Drum up some good points about HD DVD or D-VHS? Or I know, rag on digital download rentals which cost 1/6th of the price and have less than 1% marketshare, mmm yes that will be effective and applicable. Sounds like being an advocate of the ostrich approach and/or Blu-ray apologist approach instead. Not going to happen with me when I pay a price premium of $20 per disc... Sell me them to me for $5-$10 average and I'll be more open to more restrictive DRM, at least then I'm getting a cash credit for my inconvenience and lack of functionality/portability. At $20 these days, I should be able to insert the Blu-ray in my PC and burn a DVD of it with a few clicks to watch at friend or family members houses who have no Blu-ray player, or in the portable/car DVD player, etc... Easily could be done with transcoding and no loss of space/bandwidth on the BD disc.

As for AACS Online interacting with BD+, obviously if AACS works with BD+ then AACS Online will do the same. Even if AACS Online only works to keep the original AACS more robust through online updates and checks, it is making BD+ more powerful as BD+ works together with AACS. This is common sense.

Finally, for those who think nothing can be done, I both loathe and pity that mindframe. Take a look at Amazon MP3 offering DRM-free music (although your "unique" identifier is watermarked), the Sony rootkit fiasco, or the recent XBOX Live Marketplace DRM policy changes if you want evidence that your voice can be heard if you yell loud enough. If you bend over and take it, though, its just going to keep getting bigger and more uncomfortable as time goes on.

And all of the above doesn't hide the fact that you talk down Blu-ray whenever you get a chance. You can hide behind DRM all you want. But you get orgasms thinking about pay-per-use downloads or compressed cable company viewings (all which will have DRM), or vaporware items like movies on thumb drives (which will also have DRM). When it comes to blu-ray, you are the supreme Debbie Downer of the forum. I can almost count on the fact that if a thread is started by Ruined about Blu-ray, it's a complaint or fearmongering.

As far as me being a "blu-ray apologist", all I can say is that I am excited about the movies that have been released and are coming out in HD. I am happy to see all studios aligned under one format and proceeding ahead to build up the library of films I can watch. People's memories aren't that bad that they can't remember you practicing fellatio on HD-DVD whenever you had a chance. That same enthusiasm for HD is gone now, and replaced with relentless bad press about blu-ray. Well, actually not replaced, as you were doing all that before hd-dvd died, but I guess continued irrespective of the end of the format war. Forget ostrich approach or even being a devil's advocate...Ruined, you are still carrying the banner of being anti blu-ray. I mean, do you really have to worry about DRM anyways? You seem more than capable of ripping bd's just like you did dvd's. I mean, people like you that really are passionate about the issue can just use Slysoft, like you have trumpeted on this forum. The rest of us won't care because we watch our movies as intended. So why must you continue to sh*t on blu-ray day in and day out?

[videoworx]

The quicker this is understood, the quicker it is apparent that you don't need to read 1984 to know that the paying consumer is the one that gets screwed and/or limited by DRM, not the pirate.

That's right. You don't need to read 1984, because the comparison is ridiculous.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by ganthc

And all of the above doesn't hide the fact that you talk down Blu-ray whenever you get a chance. You can hide behind DRM all you want. When it comes to blu-ray, you are the supreme Debbie Downer of the forum. I can almost count on the fact that if a thread is started by Ruined about Blu-ray, it's a complaint or fearmongering.

The fact is your perception is skewed. Lets take a look at the last few Blu-ray related threads I started:

* This thread (negative)
* Universal announces some BDs (positive)
* Managed copy cancelled! (negative)
* Pulled the trigger on a Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-ray Player (positive)
* Panasonic stumbles, Pioneer to the rescue? (positive)
* Panasonic jacks up BD50 price! (neutral to negative)
* ETA and pricing of upcoming BD standalones (positive)
* BDA needs to develop a 3-D "profile," and soon! (neutral)
* Post your comparisons of DTS-HDMA (lossless) vs DTS Core (lossy)! (neutral)

Clearly it is a mix of different threads both positive, negative, and neutral. So you are clearly off in your assessment. Just because someone isn't a Blu-ray cheerleader doesn't make them a "downer."

It is also worthwhile to mention that Blu-ray has been getting slammed left and right in the general press lately due to consumer apathy and slow sales. Unless, of course, you think I have the power to control that, too.

But you get orgasms thinking about pay-per-use downloads or compressed cable company viewings (all which will have DRM), or vaporware items like movies on thumb drives (which will also have DRM).

I like pay-per-use rentals because they are cheap and give instant gratification. DRM is not really of concern for rentals because it is only a rental that is meant to be kept temporarily. I am not the type of person who rents stuff and copies it. Since I only have the content for 24-48hours and I am only spending $5 on it, my expectations are very low on what I can do with it.

I don't particularly care for the download-to-own model. The rental model if implemented right will work just as well and be a lot cheaper. As a result, download-to-own is pretty pointless IMO.

As far as me being a "blu-ray apologist", all I can say is that I am excited about the movies that have been released and are coming out in HD. I am happy to see all studios aligned under one format and proceeding ahead to build up the library of films I can watch.

Sure, that is a great thing, so long as the consumer is not getting screwed as a result of it. When corps start to pull stuff, I'm going to call them on it. On the other hand, my Blu-ray library has exceeded the size of what my HD DVD library was before. And I just preordered a BD player that is more expensive than any HD DVD player I ever bought. So clearly I am on the same wavelength in some areas.

People's memories aren't that bad that they can't remember you practicing fellatio on HD-DVD whenever you had a chance.

Nothing like a little personal attack to spice things up, eh?

Anyway, as I've pointed out several times before it appears you simply can't get over the format war as evidenced by this statement and countless others you've made since it ended. You can't compare now to then, they were two different times. Back then I was fighting for consumer rights by championing the format with less DRM, now I am continuing to fight for consumer rights by calling out the BDA when it tries something sneaky.

That same enthusiasm for HD is gone now, and replaced with relentless bad press about blu-ray.

If you've read the tech news lately, there has been a barrage of negative press about Blu-ray, and rightly so. Since the war ended player prices and disc prices both went up. Sales have slumped. Advertising stopped. New DRM is introduced. These are not things to be enthusiastic about unless you simply choose to ignore the post-war problems.

Well, actually not replaced, as you were doing all that before hd-dvd died, but I guess continued irrespective of the end of the format war. Forget ostrich approach or even being a devil's advocate...Ruined, you are still carrying the banner of being anti blu-ray. I mean, do you really have to worry about DRM anyways? You seem more than capable of ripping bd's just like you did dvd's. I mean, people like you that really are passionate about the issue can just use Slysoft, like you have trumpeted on this forum. The rest of us won't care because we watch our movies as intended. So why must you continue to sh*t on blu-ray day in and day out?

I am carrying the banner of being an HD customer that wants to get a fair deal. Intrusive DRM combined with privacy violation are not part of that deal. If you don't care about those things happening to you, that is fine. Other people do care, and do not want to take the "ostrich approach" but instead learn what they may be compromising.

If you are confused about why I must "continue to sh*t on blu-ray day in and day out," the answer is because you are so conditioned from the format war that you can see nothing but negative from my posts. So again, get over it. If you feel the ideas in the post are not valid, argue them. Obviously many people agree my points are valid. In that case, I think you should take a closer look at your recent knee-jerk reactions and character assassination attempts you have made, and realize who is really being the biased one! Especially when the general news has crapped on Blu-ray recently for good reasons, should we not talk about that either because you just want to ignore it and watch your movies regardless of reality?

[videoworx]