BD-Live: Big Brother is watching you - "AACS Online"

[Ruined]

Wow, check out this revelation from the DMP-BD50 Manual just up on the Panasonic site:

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER...MPBD50-MUL.PDF

Originally Posted by Panasonic DMP-BD50 Manual (bottom of page 16)

AACS Online
When discs supporting BD-Live are played back, the player or disc IDs may be sent
to the content provider via the Internet.

So basically by using BD-Live, you give permission for studios to track your specific playback history as well as see if your player is valid/not modded, etc - and of course it is tied to your IP address. I could see how nicely this could work together with BD+ for a DRM nightmare. So much for online content, it appears this is also about online DRM & monitoring.

All the more happy I'm getting the Pioneer BDP-51FD WITHOUT BD-Live!

Has anyone else actually heard of "AACS Online" prior to this?

[videoworx]

I suggest you look up the word "may" in a dictionary.

[Sehnzeleid]

If you read the quote it says player and disc IDs may be sent, I don't see the big deal in IDs being collected. I'm sure anyone who interacts with the outside world monetarily or electronically has this type of data, and probably some data that if a person knew they'd be super pissed off, collected every single day. It's a sign of the times and if the studios wish to know what I'm watching (they already know from retail/rental/VOD tracking), I don't give a damn, more important things to worry about.

Also it's not like a person has to connect their player to the Internet, so it's a moot point.

[billnye97]

Fuck that. I'm with Ruined on this one. Just because it "may" send my IP to the studio it's still an invasion of my privacy. I don't like people's attitude that it is a "sign of the times" and that we should get used to it. I also shouldn't have to disconnect from the internet when viewing a film. Good god what's next?

[dugpa]

I agree, anytime people start tracking personal information is never a good thing. Even if they're just using it for marketing purposes, that data has value. They need to compensate me somehow for it, much in the same way groccery and other stores have little cards that collect your shopping habits when you use them but also give you a discount. They want to send me a 10% off coupon everytime they collect my data I'm cool with it. But no way for free.

[sambow87]

Yeah, I'm with Ruined on this one as well. I don't care if it may or may not be sent, I don't want it sent at all.

I have not heard of AACS online before you mentioned it...but let me take a look at the EULA for the PS3 (at least I think that is where it might be).

[brian]

Originally Posted by videoworx

I suggest you look up the word "may" in a dictionary.

If a marketer can do it, the marketer will do it.

[ganthc]

Considering this to be more of the same from Ruined, with his action line being "Blu-ray and the ps3 are evil and should be avoided, hd-dvd and MS are angels", I went to my manual for the HD-A2. Lo and behold, I quickly found this little gem in the manual on pg 46 at the bottom:

NOTE:

If you select to accept "cookies", the HD DVD internet services you use may record or track information about your use of the player and/or those sites. If you do not choose to allow cookies, some or all features of a site may not properly function.

So it appears that this was the case with hd-dvd and you had NO problems using (and you even paraded) online content there. It is now standard fare for data collection to determine if studios want to invest money/effort into making online content, find out whether they can market other movies/products to you, or just to get a headcount of who is using the service.

Yes, I'm sure that the above could be used to track down pirates, but I laugh, because somehow that really only seems to scare you in particular on these forums.

[Ruined]

lol, ganthc continues his quest of comical attempted character assassination and inability to move past the format war - "EVERYTHING RUINED POSTS IS HD DVD vs. BD ITS SOOOO OBVIOUS!!!"

Also, please point me anywhere in an HD DVD manual where there is a reference to HD DVD players being allowed to transmit player id/serial in order to facilitate AACS Online DRM. If you can't, then you have no case and you didn't read my OP.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by Ruined

lol, ganthc continues his quest of comical attempted character assassination and inability to move past the format war - "EVERYTHING RUINED POSTS IS HD DVD vs. BD ITS SOOOO OBVIOUS!!!"

Also, please point me anywhere in an HD DVD manual where there is a reference to HD DVD players being allowed to transmit player id/serial in order to facilitate AACS Online DRM. If you can't, then you have no case and you didn't read my OP.

How is it character assassination if every post you make is critical of blu-ray and the ps3 and praiseworthy of MS, despite them doing the exact same things that Sony and blu-ray does? There is no optimism that occurs in your posts or threads. If I wanted to take the time, I would be able to list out the thread topics that you've started, even recently, and from that sample size be able to defend why I feel your bias is what clouds your ability to be anything but supportive of HD formats on disc that don't start with HD and end with DVD.

The thing is that you can't state in anywhere in the manual where it says it DOESN'T send that information. In fact, I pointed out in the manual where it says that it tracks and records anything you did with online content. I don't see how that is any different than what bd does. Oh, but there is that added aspect of piracy prevention, which I agreed with you that blu-ray would do. But is the real scary aspect for you the fact that blu-ray is doing data gathering, which apparently hd-dvd did as well, or is it that you having a hacked player or an illegal movie could come to the notice of authorities and that doesn't sit right with you?

[elfman]

Hehe. It's funny that the most predictable posts on the forums lately is NOT Ruined's topics, but ganthc's inevitable attack post chiding Ruined's "predictable" post..... love it.

By the way, I agree with most opinions here and would HATE to have that much info going back on MOVIES! We're not talking software that needs performance feedback for testing and support, but simply WATCHING a movie. And with the ability to shut down your machine if they believe you've done something wrong. That's going to bite them in the butt if they use it in that way, I guarantee.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by elfman

Hehe. It's funny that the most predictable posts on the forums lately is NOT Ruined's topics, but ganthc's inevitable attack post chiding Ruined's "predictable" post..... love it.

By the way, I agree with most opinions here and would HATE to have that much info going back on MOVIES! We're not talking software that needs performance feedback for testing and support, but simply WATCHING a movie. And with the ability to shut down your machine if they believe you've done something wrong. That's going to bite them in the butt if they use it in that way, I guarantee.

Yeah, because a thread titled "BD-LIVE: Big Brother is watching you" is not inflammatory.

And by the way, his action line seems to be working. You seem pretty afraid that Sony is going to brick your machine and send the Feds crashing down your door to arrest you.

[videoworx]

Originally Posted by brian

If a marketer can do it, the marketer will do it.

Actually, it's journalists (rather, bad journalists) that are guilty of making up facts by using the word "may."
If you don't feel like doing the research, just watch How To Get Ahead In Advertising, where an ad exec points this very scenario out. Adding the word "may" changes an opinion about something or someone without any actual information being proven.

For instance, using the sentence, "When discs supporting BD-Live are played back, the player or disc IDs may be sent to the content provider via the Internet."
I can change this to "When discs supporting BD-Live are played back, the player or disc IDs may be eaten by cookie monster."

And I could print this in a newspaper, because I don't need to prove it. The word may suggests it's a possibility - but to a reader, it's a probability.

And there plenty of people on the internet gullible enough to believe that cookie monster would actually follow through with this.

BTW, marketing people use the word "virtually", not "may."

[Wirehed]

Let's keep the personal stuff out of this.

Ruined doesn't like invasive copy protection, neither do a lot of people. If you like it, or it doesn't bother you that's fine too, everyone can have an opinion, but there's no reason to attack Ruined personally over it.


No one's breaking any rules here, I'm just pointing out I'm tired of the bickering about this stuff. Argue the points, that's fine, but do not make it personal.

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by ganthc

In fact, I pointed out in the manual where it says that it tracks and records anything you did with online content. I don't see how that is any different than what bd does.

The difference is you can turn cookies off and thus turn off the tracking. BD-Live doesn't give you that option. It's the choice that matters. In fact, I have cookies turned off on my A1 and have never had a problem with online content.
See, it wasn't that hard to figure out.

[elfman]

Originally Posted by ganthc

And by the way, his action line seems to be working. You seem pretty afraid that Sony is going to brick your machine and send the Feds crashing down your door to arrest you.

Ruined is not my source for feeling that way - it's the way the BD (and other) technology is heading. (See the recent new about Bioware's "rolling DRM" - 'Mass Effect' to have terrible DRM - luckily they've reversed that)

If the consumer doesn't get involved, then we will get ever-increasing attempts to limit use of this tech. And just because someone is concerned with DRM doesn't mean that they are automatically a pirate. To say so is like agreeing with unlimited search and seizure by the government because "hey, if you're not guilty then you have nothing to fear!". That's dangerous.

[Derb]

I'm shaking in my little cowboy boots

I don't know, this kinda ID collection or whatever you want to call it DRM, is nothing more than another way to stop piracy.

We'll see how many bricked BD players arise from this form of DRM.

[Wilson]

I don't think this is a big deal but as others have stated if we just let this slide the privacy infringements will just get more invasive. It will happen so slowly we'll just think "that's the way it is now".

Does anyone know if the cable companies can track what you watch on their cable boxes and PVR's? I'm sure it's possible but do they?

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by dugpa

The difference is you can turn cookies off and thus turn off the tracking. BD-Live doesn't give you that option. It's the choice that matters. In fact, I have cookies turned off on my A1 and have never had a problem with online content.
See, it wasn't that hard to figure out.

I don't think we ever saw the full realization of what hd-dvd could offer via their online content. Who can say that if hd-dvd had won, they wouldn't have basically made those online content only able to work with cookies. So then your choice would have been have online content and let us track your data, or don't allow the cookies and not be able to watch the online content. Pretty much the same choice you have now with blu-ray. And I will add that even if you turned it off, the manual actually instructs people to turn cookies on. The note was there as a warning that if you didn't allow the cookies, they wouldn't be able to track you (which is questionable as well). You called their "bluff" on the content not working, but there are plenty of people that probably followed the manual's instructions and allowed for cookies to be used. As such, they were tracked. Your choice on whether you want to view bd-live material is the same way. If you don't want to be tracked, then don't watch the material. In answer to your statement above, the "compensation" you are getting for being tracked is to be able to watch whatever online material is being provided. Perhaps it's an exclusive commentary from the director or whatever. You have a choice just the same there as well.

The spector of bricked players, aka FUD, has been put out there since the format war's inception. Now that the format war is over, that same boogeyman is being thrown out there all the same (and still by the same people ). I'm with Derb, in that we have yet to see bd+ rear its ugly head and start shutting down players. I just don't think it's going to happen to citizens that are obeying the DMCA. For those that are trying to circumvent it, it is possible that they will be in for surprise on that.

[Wirehed]

I don't want my movie to not play if my Internet connection is down.
I don't want to worry about my movie not playing because at some point they decide to shut down their server.

I don't want to not be able to enjoy the content on the disc THAT I PAID FOR for any reason what-so-ever.

[videoworx]

Originally Posted by Wirehed

I don't want my movie to not play if my Internet connection is down.
I don't want to worry about my movie not playing because at some point they decide to shut down their server.

I don't want to not be able to enjoy the content on the disc THAT I PAID FOR for any reason what-so-ever.

What does this have to do with the information in the Panasonic manual (the purpose of this thread)?
The manual clearly states that the purpose of the AACS Online feature is purely for marketing / entertainment features. This functionality will never cause your player, or software, to brick itself.
It exists, so studios can more accurately target advertising (you didn't assume studios would pay for the online infrastructure out of their own pockets, did you?). As for compensation, you''ll probably be rewarded with discounts or coupons for software that more accurately targets your taste in movies/games. This is no different than using a credit card, or supermarket discount card.

If you are completely paranoid, just run the player through a router that can block inbound and outbound traffic. Watching a Blu-Ray movies does not require internet access, and a player will never refuse to play a movie because you aren't connected at the time (unless the movie is specifically designed to work with online content only - a rarity).

[Wirehed]

There seem to be two groups of people; those who don't care about DRM, and those who are worried about it.

I'm explaining to those who do not seem to understand what all the fuss is about, why those who do worry about such things are worried.


I do not want to be marketed to based on what movie I'm currently watching. I paid for the movie, it's mine.

[videoworx]

I do not want to be marketed to based on what movie I'm currently watching. I paid for the movie, it's mine.

You live in a society where every purchase you make is scrutinized by every company involved in the process of getting you that product or service.
If you play a video game online, everything you do is examined in detail, and put into a report.
If you buy 42 rolls of toilet paper in July, and 6 in August, this information is flagged and sent to someone who specializes in getting people to buy more toilet paper.
Every time you connect Windows XP to the internet, everything you do is monitored, examined in detail, and printed out in triplicate.
When you pop in a Blu-Ray movie, and only watch 15 minutes of it, someone wants to know why, and how to get you to watch at least 7 more minutes of it. This is hypothetical, as nothing like this is even being considered yet - hence the word "may" in the Panasonic manual.

Again, for the ultra-paranoid (the collected information is never shared, legally, and can not be used in a court of law to prosecute you), just block the outgoing signals.

[Wirehed]

And what part of me not liking that is hard to understand?

I choose to not take part in that where ever it's possible. My grocery store doesn't track my purchases and neither does Fry's.


Amazon would be the exception to that, since they certainly track what I buy, but they don't track what I do with my property after I buy it from them, and I would argue that my shopping experience is enhanced because of it (Amazon recommends things for me and designs a personalized experience around my shopping preferences).

[videoworx]

And what part of me not liking that is hard to understand?

Nothing. I just didn't understand why you, like Ruined, brought up the whole "this is going to brick your player" hoopla, when this specific function of AACS has nothing to do with BD+ countermeasures.