Blu-ray High def. Audio

[Shadowman82]

We've all heard about the possiblity of one day record companies possibly releasing high definition music on Blu-ray . Nothing has been announced so far though . Of coarse the question I ask myself is why ?

Both DVD-Audio and SA-CD has and are niche formats with SA-CD enjoying more support . Even so it's a niche format , not dead as some claim but a niche format .

So why then does Sony or anyone else who would support Blu-ray high def Audio think there might be a bigger market if they released such Audio on Blu-ray ?

And who needs all that storage space for Audio anyway ? DVD-A and SA-CD provide pristine Audio in up to 5.1 channel sound with just 4.7GB so what would they possibly do with 25GB/50GB ?

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

So why then does Sony or anyone else who would support Blu-ray high def Audio think there might be a bigger market if they released such Audio on Blu-ray ?

Because any blu-ray player will play high def audio on blu-ray. Whereas to play sacd or dvd-audio (the actual high rez track, not the DD or DTS one) you need a player that specifically supports those formats, of which there are few these days. With blu-ray, assuming the format catches on, you'll have a much larger install base to sell to. That said, I do agree that high rez audio is a very niche market and will probably always remain that way, catering only to true audiophiles.

And who needs all that storage space for Audio anyway ? DVD-A and SA-CD provide pristine Audio in up to 5.1 channel sound with just 4.7GB so what would they possibly do with 25GB/50GB ?

It's not a matter of storage. It's a matter of standardization. They hope blu-ray will catch on to replace dvd. At which point, almost everyone will have a player that plays a format they can also sell high rez audio on. It's about there being a format out there that supports high rez audio without having to have any extra features added, as you do with dvd-audio or sacd). The extra storage space is just gravy.

Oh, and the first blu-ray music only disc has been announced. It's from Norway, The TrondheimSolistene Ensemble's Divertimenti. Neil Young has also announced he'll start releasing his catalog on blu-ray later this year.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

We've all heard about the possiblity of one day record companies possibly releasing high definition music on Blu-ray . Nothing has been announced so far though .

Actually the first has been released already, "Ghosts I-IV" by Nine Inch Nails, in a limited production run. HD music on Blu-ray is "Profile 3.0," but it is backwards compatible with Profile 1.0 - basically 3.0 is just a set of guidelines for record comps to release audio on Blu-ray, all players will be able to reproduce the content (though it may not be lossless on all).

Of coarse the question I ask myself is why ?

Both DVD-Audio and SA-CD has and are niche formats with SA-CD enjoying more support . Even so it's a niche format , not dead as some claim but a niche format .

So why then does Sony or anyone else who would support Blu-ray high def Audio think there might be a bigger market if they released such Audio on Blu-ray ?

And who needs all that storage space for Audio anyway ? DVD-A and SA-CD provide pristine Audio in up to 5.1 channel sound with just 4.7GB so what would they possibly do with 25GB/50GB ?

You know my thoughts on this. I could say the same for regular compact disc. Why bother with DVD-A and SACD when Compact Disc offers 16bit/44.1khz sound, which was basically determined to be the realistic human limits for hearing differences in audio (this is why this configuration for CD was set in the first place when determining CD's specs). While CD can't deliver pictures, it can deliver 5.1 audio easily via the DTS codec @ 1.4mbps, which though lossy again is such a high bitrate that its at the limit where humans cant tell the difference between it and lossless - especially on a 5.1 recording with its massive bitpool.

The answer is the same for all of the above - the studios are trying to find ways to sell you music that you already own again, without any perceivable improvement. They market it well via specs and higher fidelity masters, but the same audible fidelity could have been done on CD, DVD, or SACD. And lets not forget the added DRM studios love of newer formats over CD.

Now that Blu-ray is out, they have another chance to sell you music - "Blu" or "HD" music, to go with your HD videos. Yes, SACD and DVD-A would have been just as good, but those formats are considered DOA in the public's eye. So now they will try to market highres again through Blu-ray with less format obstructions, bigger marketing budgets, and impressive specs to get people to fork over their cash again for a new player & format.

[1138]

I tend to agree. People are always being sold on audiophile stuff that's overkill and/or unecessary. The whole analog "continuous" sound argument and all the other stuff is just so much bunk.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by 1138

I tend to agree. People are always being sold on audiophile stuff that's overkill and/or unecessary. The whole analog "continuous" sound argument and all the other stuff is just so much bunk.

Yep, if all your CDs don't sound reference quality either the bands/record labels you listen to master their CDs poorly or your room/amp/receiver/speakers are not up to task.

[plissken99]

Actually a 50GB disc has a lot of potential. Imagine all of Metallica or Nine inch Nails albums on a single disc in hi rez audio?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by plissken99

Actually a 50GB disc has a lot of potential. Imagine all of Metallica or Nine inch Nails albums on a single disc in hi rez audio?

I can have Metallica, Nine Inch Nails, and a slew of many other band's entire anthologies stored in lossless 16bit/44.1khz sound on an 80gb Zune - which can easily be docked into my home theater among other places. 24/96 offers no audible benefit over 16/44.1. In terms of functionality + sound quality, the advanced MP3 players are far ahead of Blu-ray.

[Shadowman82]

I won't get into anymore arguments about the validity of high definition Audio
( you hear that Ruined ? lol ) .

But I will discuss some of the other points raise . I guess the notion that if Blu-ray becomes widely adopted there could be a bigger market for high definition Audio might be true . Maybe it could replace the share the Vinyl market holds now , while still niche I'm fairly certain Vinyl still enjoys higher sales than SA-CD or DVD-A .

I'm not sure though record companies and artists would go for releasing several albums on one disc . Some might but they can make more money selling albums separatly , alot of people prefer to buy seperate albums as they may not like all albums of one artist and music lovers I think like having separate albums as it will look more impressive when they display several albums of an artist in their collection than rather than one disc . Collection discs with several albums one I think could probably replace box set type releases .

I think as far as music is concerned the mainstream future probably is downloads but music lovers might enjoy Music on Blu-ray .

[plissken99]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I can have Metallica, Nine Inch Nails, and a slew of many other band's entire anthologies stored in lossless 16bit/44.1khz sound on an 80gb Zune - which can easily be docked into my home theater among other places. 24/96 offers no audible benefit over 16/44.1. In terms of functionality + sound quality, the advanced MP3 players are far ahead of Blu-ray.

I miss my Zune... I will have another very soon.

Is there a better way to connect it to the home stereo? Best I can think of is the old 1/8th mini to RCA method.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by plissken99

I miss my Zune... I will have another very soon.

Is there a better way to connect it to the home stereo? Best I can think of is the old 1/8th mini to RCA method.

Yes, there is a better way. You are better off using a dock > RCA, which bypasses volume control & amplification:
Amazon.com: Zune Home AV Pack v2: Electronics

Of course, a straight digital optical/coax connection for simple D>A would be better than this resulting D>A>D>A, but record labels only want digital output with DRM - which optical/coax does not have. Thankfully Zune has good DAC and my preamp has good ADC... I think this route is the best we will see in terms of combining quality + media library convenience.

[brian]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Yes, there is a better way. You are better off using a dock > RCA, which bypasses volume control & amplification:
Amazon.com: Zune Home AV Pack v2: Electronics

Of course, a straight digital optical/coax connection for simple D>A would be better than this resulting D>A>D>A, but record labels only want digital output with DRM - which optical/coax does not have. Thankfully Zune has good DAC and my preamp has good ADC... I think this route is the best we will see in terms of combining quality + media library convenience.

The old-school iRiver HP-120 MP3 players have a digital optical output. You can put Rockbox (a firmware replacement) on it and have access to using any sort of codec you'd ever possibly want and use the optical output with DRM free music.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by brian

The old-school iRiver HP-120 MP3 players have a digital optical output. You can put Rockbox (a firmware replacement) on it and have access to using any sort of codec you'd ever possibly want and use the optical output with DRM free music.

Neat! It works with WMA lossless? Part of the hassle is getting a player that has both digital output and access to lossless codecs (and not obscure ones like FLAC that are not supported by most consumer hardware).

I must admit, after using the Zune software it would be difficult to going back to a standard MP3 player... But if I can get true digital output it might be worth it. Then again like I said the Zune DAC and my preamp's ADC are both high quality, so I'm not sure there would be too much of a difference.

Also, is there a model bigger than 20GB? I am already a bit over 60GB on my Zune so 20 will not cut it. I know Microsoft and Apple both have more restrictions they are bound to with DRM due to their online stores, and hence we can't get a Zune or iPod with coax/optical digital output due to no DRM as stupid as that sounds.

[brian]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Neat! It works with WMA lossless? ...

I've only tried flac, but the Rockbox wiki says

MPEG audio layers I-III (MP3/MP2/MP1), Ogg Vorbis, MPEG-4 AAC, Musepack, AC3, WMA, Speex, and the lossy portion of WavPack hybrid files are supported lossy formats. Lossless formats include FLAC, WavPack, Shorten, Apple Lossless and Monkey's Audio. Rockbox plays Intel-style WAV and Apple AIFF uncompressed audio. In addition, there are playback of game audio types ADX, SID, NSF and SPC. The MOD tracker format is also now supported.[2]

So, it doesn't look like WMA Lossless is supported, but Apple's compression is. However, at least with lossless, you're not losing anything by transcoding to the supported formats.

There's a 40 gig model, the h140, and you could also go about replacing the harddrive your self. I believe I've seen people installing 60 and 80 gig drives in it. It takes a 1.8 inch drive. Or, the mod I did involved getting a converter for the inside so that it takes solid-state Compactflash memory. My iriver is currently using a 32 gig CF card.

I'm sure the UI on this thing is lightyears behind the zune, but this is really a geeky enthusiast MP3 player for those that want a digital output and options like having a line-in for recording concerts and the like.

[Shadowman82]

Talk about thread hijaking . lol . I'm wondering if they do release Audio on Blu-ray what format will it be in , one of the Dolby or dts formats ? Or will it be high resolution multichannel PCM ?

[brian]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

Talk about thread hijaking . lol . I'm wondering if they do release Audio on Blu-ray what format will it be in , one of the Dolby or dts formats ? Or will it be high resolution multichannel PCM ?

I imagine it could be all of them. All have the capability, and all have mostly identical specs. Unless Dolby or DTS try to get some exclusive contracts with the various labels, multichannel PCM seems to make the most sense given the abundance of space on Blu-ray and lack of possible compatibility issues.

[Shadowman82]

I also think PCM would be most likely for the reasons you mentioned . Ironic though that in that case it would pretty much just be like DVD-Audio . Given Blu-rays storage capacity they could easily do multichannel 24-bit/192khz PCM for these releases . Sure with 50GB they could do an even higher rate but that seems pointless /

[dugpa]

Rather than speculate, let's just look at the specs for the first blu-ray audio disc, Divertimenti: 2.0 LPCM, 5.1 LPCM, 5.1 DTS HD Master Audio, 5.1 Dolby True HD, 5.1 Dolby Digital at 48KHz and SACD. Obviously not all titles will follow this, but there's the specs for the first blu-ray record.

[Shadowman82]

Aaah that actually tells us alot . If further releases follow this model then it seems they will use Blu-rays massive storage capacity to provide as many different Audio formats as possible . That's pretty smart since it will minimize compatibility issues .

The one thing that kind of bugged me about DVD-Audio in comparison to SA-CD is that you had to go into a menu to select your songs etc. where as SA-CD could be played like a CD without having any kind of Monitor (TV) on . Would Blu-ray music be more like DVD-A in that respect ? Probably right ?

[dugpa]

Originally Posted by Shadowman82

The one thing that kind of bugged me about DVD-Audio in comparison to SA-CD is that you had to go into a menu to select your songs etc.

Nope. It's required by the dvd-audio spec that by default it starts playing the highres track when you insert the disc. You can advance tracks then just as you would with a cd or sacd. There were a couple of discs at the start that didn't quite follow the spec correctly, but most of them do. No menus were needed. If a display was required, how would all those car dvd-audio players work after all?

[Derb]

Originally Posted by dugpa

Nope. It's required by the dvd-audio spec that by default it starts playing the highres track when you insert the disc. You can advance tracks then just as you would with a cd or sacd. There were a couple of discs at the start that didn't quite follow the spec correctly, but most of them do. No menus were needed. If a display was required, how would all those car dvd-audio players work after all?

Yeah when I had my Acura, I just popped in the DVD-A disc & the first track played in a few seconds. Took a bit longer to load than a regular CD but the quality is great. I than put the same DVD-A disc in the HD-XA2 player & to my surprise there was an image on my tv. The disc did start to play the first track as soon as it loaded.. just like the Acura.

[Shadowman82]

That's cool . I guess they could go that way then with Blu-ray Audio and I think it's cool they're trying to cover so many formats .