What's the deal with Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD...Is it Beta-VHS all over?

[rixrex]

Since I don't have either technology, I am reading with interest the descriptions here of the two formats.

The gist of what I have been reading is that Sony Blu-Ray may somehow be headed toward the same 'phantom zone' that swallowed up Beta. And I am honestly not surprised, being very familiar with Sony's misteps in the Beta-VHS combat field.

What it sounds like is that the Blu-Ray format isn't quite as good in general as the HD format, is this the case?

If anybody can do the maximum possible to cause themselves to fail in such an endeavor, Sony is the one. I don't feel too sorry for them at all because, in regards to Betamax, they had a videotape format that could have been the top-notch home video format if they had not been so obstinate when RCA initially approached them with suggestions on making the format more user friendly.

They basically told RCA to shove their suggestions, so RCA went over to VHS in a flash. (Of course, this is the same RCA that did not succeed well with the CED videodisc, but it was a valiant try and a great finishing point for Edison's marvelous phonograph invention. Actual video and movies played from a grooved disc with a stylus! And damn if it didn't work and work well too.)

Anyway, that's digressing from the subject: just what is the deal with Blu-ray vs HD-DVD?

[limacharliewhiskey]

Yes, it is Beta-VHS all over again.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, technologically, are very equal in performance, with slight advantages/disadvantages in either audio or copyright-protection schemes.

Currently, Blu-Ray discs are outselling HD-DVD discs by a 2:1 ratio.

Player-wise, HD-DVD players are outselling Blu-Ray players when not counting Playstation 3 players. When including PS3, Blu-Ray is outselling HD-DVD by a wide margin.

[rixrex]

That's very interesting.

Are there exclusive agreements amongst certain movie studios to produce the discs in only one format?

It certainly seems like Beta-VHS in the initial stages.

Beta tapes outsold VHS initially, yet Beta machines were more expensive and that contributed partly to their eventual demise. Of course the whole recording time was another issue that does not seem pertinent here.

Also, VHS was eventually able to gain ground with certain deals of exclusivity, such as the deal with RCA to produce machines for RCA.

Quality-wise, you will always hear the misnomer that Beta was better than VHS. This was true while recording on the highest quality modes, but Beta would only record up to one hour on that mode initially while VHS recorded up to 2 hours.

All Beta prerecorded movie tapes were typically recorded on Beta II, which slowed the tape down and allowed longer time recording. Consequently, Beta II recorded materials ended up being nearly the equivalent of SP mode on VHS in quality.

Sounds like BD and HD are already at that point of similar quality. Let's see what mistakes Sony might make this time around to cause BD to falter.

Or perhaps some hardware maker will come up with an inexpensive player that handles both.

[limacharliewhiskey]

Originally Posted by rixrex

Are there exclusive agreements amongst certain movie studios to produce the discs in only one format?

Beta tapes outsold VHS initially, yet Beta machines were more expensive and that contributed partly to their eventual demise. Of course the whole recording time was another issue that does not seem pertinent here.

Also, VHS was eventually able to gain ground with certain deals of exclusivity, such as the deal with RCA to produce machines for RCA.

Quality-wise, you will always hear the misnomer that Beta was better than VHS. This was true while recording on the highest quality modes, but Beta would only record up to one hour on that mode initially while VHS recorded up to 2 hours.

All Beta prerecorded movie tapes were typically recorded on Beta II, which slowed the tape down and allowed longer time recording. Consequently, Beta II recorded materials ended up being nearly the equivalent of SP mode on VHS in quality.

Sounds like BD and HD are already at that point of similar quality. Let's see what mistakes Sony might make this time around to cause BD to falter.

Yes, there are some exclusive titles to certain formats.

Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks are exclusive to HD-DVD.

Sony/MGM, Disney/Buena Vista, Fox, Anchor Bay and a few others are exclusive to Blu-Ray (don't remember all of them).

Some like Warner Bros. are offering titles in both formats.

I'm not sure where smaller studios like Lionsgate, Weinstein Co, and New Line fall. These studios are either Blu-Ray exclusive or offering titles in both formats.

Your recollection of the Betamax VCRs sounds similar to mine, as my parents bought a Betamax when it came out, and I became extremely familiar with it for the 10 years that it lasted in my family. Our machine only did Beta II or Beta III speed. Never did see one that had Beta I speed.

There is an argument that the dual layer Blu-Ray disc holds 50GB while the dual layer HD-DVD only holds 30GB of data, but so far, Blu-Ray hasn't been able to make their video image significantly better because of that. If Blu-Ray looks better, it is only by a slim and negligible margin.

[rixrex]

That's also interesting. Exclusivity deals did not really effect the Beta-VHS struggle that much as there were not many of those kinds of deals regarding the software.

I'm very familiar with this old videotape format wars due to the fact my father had his own electonics repair shop and also worked stints at both RCA and Columbia. We got all the inside publications on the matter.

Your machine had only Beta II and III recording because Sony eventually realized that Beta I, one-hour recording max, had no real home market application for most folks. Your machine may have been able to play back Beta I however. Beta I was still an industry standard for a long time.

There is another misconception that Sony would not allow X-rated films on Beta and that caused the demise in some way. Modern news media special interest reporters love to spout that as the reason because it gets them more interest and ratings, but it isn't really a significant matter. Sony may not have liked the idea, but they really had no control over who purchased blank beta tapes and recorded what ever production they wanted on the tapes for sale, as long as they had no contract obligation with Sony.

X-rated production houses just preferred VHS because it was easier and cheaper to use and was the most common system in homes very quickly. They saw no need to dupe the material onto Beta.

However, I wish I'd had the foresight to buy all the old Sony Beta VCRs I'd seen for cheap at yard sales and thrift stores. They bring in much more than a VHS machine now.

As usual, most folks will take a wait and see attitude, and then likely pick the format that costs least initially and has lots of titles. The exclusivity deals seem pretty even and that could make for a longer "format war" than the Beta-VHS one, or it could make folks buy dual-capable players or two players if they are cheap enough.

Or somebody will come up with a non-mechanical device that accepts a hi-memory non-erasable flash-drive/memory stick device that can be packaged in a DVD-like case for movie sales/rentals, and a recordable one for HD mini-cams and time-shift TV viewing. That would be the real deal!

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by limacharliewhiskey

Yes, there are some exclusive titles to certain formats.

Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks are exclusive to HD-DVD.

Sony/MGM, Disney/Buena Vista, Fox, Anchor Bay and a few others are exclusive to Blu-Ray (don't remember all of them).

Some like Warner Bros. are offering titles in both formats.

I'm not sure where smaller studios like Lionsgate, Weinstein Co, and New Line fall. These studios are either Blu-Ray exclusive or offering titles in both formats.

Your recollection of the Betamax VCRs sounds similar to mine, as my parents bought a Betamax when it came out, and I became extremely familiar with it for the 10 years that it lasted in my family. Our machine only did Beta II or Beta III speed. Never did see one that had Beta I speed.

There is an argument that the dual layer Blu-Ray disc holds 50GB while the dual layer HD-DVD only holds 30GB of data, but so far, Blu-Ray hasn't been able to make their video image significantly better because of that. If Blu-Ray looks better, it is only by a slim and negligible margin.

Lionsgate is Blu-ray exclusive. Weinstein Co. is hd-dvd exclusive. New Line is part of Warner Brothers, and thus will be dual format.

[mighty mint]

Hey Rixrex, it looks like you recently joined dvdfile.com...WELCOME!

[rixrex]

Originally Posted by mighty mint

Hey Rixrex, it looks like you recently joined dvdfile.com...WELCOME!

Yes, as usual, I always get in on the format a decade or more after it's out.

[dalsh327]

Sony has a history of being proprietary.

Windows beat out Apple solely because they gave away mediocre software.

VHS won over Beta not because VHS was better but because it was metric, and VHS tapes would say 2 hr 4 hr 6 hr.

However, professional cameramen and editors keep Beta alive.

But just the name "Beta" itself comes across like "second best".

[rixrex]

Originally Posted by dalsh327

Sony has a history of being proprietary.

Windows beat out Apple solely because they gave away mediocre software.

VHS won over Beta not because VHS was better but because it was metric, and VHS tapes would say 2 hr 4 hr 6 hr.

However, professional cameramen and editors keep Beta alive.

But just the name "Beta" itself comes across like "second best".

Agreed on the windows deal, but also because of entry level price of hardware. Also a significant reason for VHS winning out too.

Of course VHS isn't better on the highest quality speed, but it did have extended recording time before Betamax, and that was the result of RCA execs going to Japan and asking for it. They also had talks with Sony, but Sony execs refused to slow down the tape speed because it would reduce quality. So RCA hooked up with VHS product suppliers, and that was that.

Beta pre-recorded movies are on Beta II speed which is actually the equivalent of VHS SP mode, and Beta I speed is superior but less record time. The metric labelling is problematic for US folks, true, but that was rectified somewhat by also including the record times on the boxes. Beta systems were used professionally by most studios for many years until recent digital recording systems.

Certainly, if you're familiar with using the Greek alphabet, Beta would mean 2cnd to you. Of course they don't use the Greek alphabet much in Japan, and Beta to product developers means the initial phase, not such a great term that way either. I don't think the average US consumer noticed it that much.

I think that had Sony actually listened to RCA about the US marketplace needs, AND they had matched VHS hardware prices, Betamax could have won out. The smaller sized tape cases are certainly nice.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by rixrex

Agreed on the windows deal, but also because of entry level price of hardware. Also a significant reason for VHS winning out too.

I concur, sir!

The more this war goes on, the more I realize just how much people really don't care about the quality of HD movies on DVD as much as just wanting HD movies on DVD.

Peace...

[rixrex]

That seems true enough. HD has become a sort of 'buzzword' to consumers and the big box retailers.

Big box, quick sale retailers don't really understand all the technology about any particular video setup or system, but love to use these instantly recognized terms that somehow mean 'better'. They foist this terminology onto the consumer in an attempt to make the consumer feel he or she isn't up to date, and needs to throw out their 3-5 yr old stuff or suffer irrepairable family harm. The key word to these retailers is 'change' because that's a big part of their revenue, and the consumer must be convinced of the necessity to change.

They must have Hi-Def DVDs and HD systems, because that's what everyone is talking about in the ads and commercials! They cannot suffer the stinging disdain of others who might see that they still have a VCR!

That disdain for the VCR (or whatever) will exist for about 15-20 yrs, and then will turn into admiration for having a vintage electronics device that will be a conversation piece for nostalgic purposes. And if the owner is the original purchaser, all the more admiration!

[sub780lime]

Originally Posted by rixrex

That disdain for the VCR (or whatever) will exist for about 15-20 yrs, and then will turn into admiration for having a vintage electronics device that will be a conversation piece for nostalgic purposes. And if the owner is the original purchaser, all the more admiration!

I still have VCR's connected to two of my 3 TV's, but I havent used one in months...they just sit there on that off chance I need to watch a Disney movie that isnt out on DVD yet.

[rixrex]

I have both VHS and Beta VCRs connected to all of my sets, because I have a fairly big collection of each and have no reason to sell these tapes just to have to spend a lot more money to get them on DVD.

Also, I have many rather obscure and foreign films on these formats that I have not seen available on DVD as yet. Many probably will never get to DVD except maybe as public domain titles where the DVD transfer is taken from a tape anyway, so why not just keep the original tape is what I say.

[sub780lime]

The last VHS I bought was Robot Jox, because it wasn't out on DVD yet.

[rixrex]

I did that too, but then finally got it on laserdisc, so probably won't ever get a DVD of it.

Also got the sequel Robot Wars and off-shoot Crash & Burn on laserdisc, Crash & Burn LD was tough to find, and these two are still not on DVD as far as I can tell.

But anything I have on LD I definitely will not get a DVD replacement for, unless the LD isn't widescreen and I think I must have the widescreen version. That's very few films so far.