Anamorphic enhancement and Aspect Ratios

I am currently looking into widescreen TV, and I have read up on anamorphic DVD's etc, but what I still have one question. After an anamorphic image is uncompressed it fills in some of the black areas at the top and bottom of the image, and by doing so changes the aspect ratio of the film. On the TVs that I looked at (Toshiba 40in and Mitsubishi 46in) I demo'd The Thin Red Line (2.35:1-anamorphic) and after the anamorphic enhancement the aspect ratio was changed to around 1:85. This is ok for films that are around that ratio anyway (The English Patient-1:85 was my test DVD) but I'm not sure that gaining the use of the extra area (and the improved resolution) is better than keeping a film in it's original aspect ratio. I realize of course that I could change the setup on the DVD player to 4:3 Letterbox and keep the same aspect ratio (and it would be much bigger on a widescreen TV of similar size as my 4:3) but that seems to defeat the purpose (not to mention bringing in downconversion etc). What I want to know is whether or not I can play an anamorphic DVD on a widescreen TV (with the DVD player set up at 16:9) and keep the original aspect ratio of the film (especially on films at 2.35:1). Is this impossible by definition or am I missing something simple here. It seems important to me to view films in the aspect ratio intended. I have not seen anything about this particular issue in my investigations so far. Anyone who can help here or has a comment please tell me what you know or think. Thanks, M

Well, from the postings that I've seen here and in the software forum, it seems that anamorphic is more important than original aspect ratio. There was a pretty heated thread about lightstorm being the culprit for "The Abyss" being non anamorphic. Those posts pretty much said it all.
My opinion is original AR. As long as it's on dvd, I'll be happy.
J

[Frank]

When viewing an 'anamorphic' DVD on a widescreen TV with the player set to 16x9 the aspect ratio will be correct.

Frank

[Blade]

FLA,

Widescreen TVs come with different "zoom" modes so that different aspect ratios will fill up the entire screen.

There's usually a strecth zoom that will make a 4:3 (regular TV broadcast) picture fill up the 16:9 (or 1.77:1) widescreen TV.

There's also usually a zoom mode that will make a 2.35:1 image fill up a widescreen TV. The TVs you were looking at probably had that mode turned on. You will be able to watch a 2.35:1 movie at 2.35:1, just get them to set the right display mode.

j70chlngr,

Aspect ratio and anamorphic transfers are not the same thing. The "16:9" enhancement refers to the standardized size of anamorphic TVs (which is 16:9). This enhancement allows a DVD to record an image using all of the 480 lines of resolution that DVD is capable of. If you display an anamorphic transfer on a 4:3 TV it will use all of the screen, but because the 4:3 TV is only capable of showing 480 lines, the picture will fill up the entire screen, and because of the shape of that screen, people will look too tall and skinny.

A 16:9 TV takes that image and streches it out to it's proper aspect ratio (unless you employ one of the TV's zoom modes). Because 16:9 TVs have upwards of 720 lines of TV resolution, they are capable of showing all 480 lines of an anamorphic DVD picture at it's proper aspect ratio.

If you think that pro anamorphic people in the Lightstorm thread are not also Original Aspect Ratio buffs, then I think you may have misunderstood their comments. Moreover, there really isn't any benefit to doing a 16:9 enhancement on movies with AR of 1.66 or less, because they already fill up so much of the screen (ie. use most of the 480 lines of resolution available).

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-David

Gentlemen,
Blade is exactly right. Anamorphic enhancement is a PROCESS. It enables the software and hardware(in this case a DVD and a widescreen monitor) to display approximately 33% more resolution in the picture due to the increased usage of a widescreen monitor's scan lines. Another feature to look for in widescreen sets is a good built-in line doubler which will enable the display of a 480P(progressive scan video signal) which leaves 480I(interlaced scan video signal) in the dust.

Neither of these features will effect the OAR(original aspect ratio), other than to use more screen real-estate with better resolution of the picture. Films in the 1.85:1 ratio will fill the screen with the set in it's anamorphic mode. 2.35:1 films will have black bars on top and bottom that are about the same size as the black bars seen on a 4:3 set with 1.85:1 films. At no time is the aspect ratio of the film changed.
The exact ratio of most true widescreen sets is 1.77:1, so that's why a 1.85:1 film will fill up the screen.

Hope this helps,
James(Jay)M.

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HT equipment: Pioneer Elite Pro-510HD RPTV
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First off, thanks for all the responses, keep them coming. Second, it would seem that Blade (thanks) has gotten to the root of my problem. I am looking at the Toshiba TW40X81 and the Mitsubishi WT-46805 and on both sets the aspect ratio for The English Patient and The Thin Red Line appeared to be the same when the DVD player was set to output for 16:9 sets. Since the screen itself is at 1.77 (thanks James M) then I am guessing that the zoomed signal made the picture look about 1.85:1. The black bars were about an inch or two for both films which of course is where this all got started. None of the salesguys at the place (chain store) I went to knew how to find the mode (besides setting the DVD player to 4:3 letterbox) that would display The Thin Red Line (or Heat, or contact for that matter) in 2.35:1. I realize that a chain store is not the best place to go for this but they are the only place in my area that have both sets that I am interested in. That is why I came here to consult people who know their stuff and are not getting a commision... The consensus here appears to be that I should be able to output from any DVD player set in 16:9 and get a picture on these Widescreen TVs that is either zoomed to some degree OR is in exactly the same aspect ratio as it would be on a 4:3 set letterboxed (In my example 2.35:1 for The Thin Red Line). I just can't see how these zoomed modes help anybody, except for the same people who like Pan and Scan. The picture has to be stretched or cropped to fill the entire screen with any film above 1:85:1. Thanks again for the help and please continue to add or clarify if at all possible. If anyone would like to recommend a progressive scan DVD player under $1000.00 or a Widescreen TV under 50in. (and $3000.00) I am all ears. Does anyone know if Sony has or is planning a progressive scan DVD player? That 480P picture was even better than the 480I that I saw (thanks again to James M). Lastly if anyone knows the exact mode to set either the Toshiba TW40X81 and/or the Mitsubishi WT-46805 to in order to get the 2.35:1 picture that would be an excellent X-mas present. Thanks to all and Happy Holidays. I have to get back to last minute wrapping now. M

[Dominik Pfleghaar]

FLA,

you may want to read this thread where we had a discussion of this very topic a while back. There are some links to great sites that will help you to clarify everything anamorphic and widescreen.
Keep asking if you still have any questions!

Happy wrapping!

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Unca Dom, DDS-088
dominikpfleghaar@netscape.net
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How to look younger: Don't be born so soon

[Blade]

FLA,

Are you saying that The Thin Red Line DID have black bars (however small) on the TVs when the player was set to 16:9?

If so, then they may actually be in the correct aspect ratio. You might want to do some comparisons between scenes with the player in 16:9 and 4:3 ltrbx mode to see if you are losing any picture information on the sides.

Also, the Toshiba 5109 is progressive and the MSRP is 999.99. I think there's a review of it in the Hardware Review section of the main www.dvdfile.com site.

Merry Christmas!

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-David

Blade,
I did what you suggested when I was looking the other day and here is what I found. With the DVD player in 16:9 mode The Thin Red Line had small black bars at the top and bottom of the screen (approximately 2in.). With the DVD player in 4:3 letterbox mode there were bigger black bars at the top and bottom of the screen (approximately 4 in.). It was clear to me that with the DVD player in 4:3 mode that the film was at 2.35:1. With the DVD player in 16:9 mode it looked like the picture was at about 1:85:1. What made me question this was when I put in The English Patient (which is at 1:85:1 and not anamorphic) I noticed that the picture had the same size black bars at the top and bottom of the screen (apprx 2 in. again). This clearly should not be the case if indeed the TV is displaying both films at their original aspect ratio. What I do not know for sure is if by uncompressing the anamorphic DVD (The Thin Red Line) with the DVD player in 16:9 mode does a widescreen TV have to fill up more of the screen to gain the increase in resolution (and therefore change the aspect ratio). I did not have time to check for the loss of information on the sides (although I don't think there was any) because of the X-mas rush and incompetent salespeople. I am going back tomorrow with an assortment of Anamorphic and Non-Anamorphic DVDs at various aspect ratios and some new theories. I will tell all who are intersted what I find. In the mean time keep the information and ideas coming, they are all very helpful. Thanks again to Blade, M.

[Hendrik]

A few rules-of-thumb:

1) You are watching DVDs on a plain vanilla, 'standard' (4:3) direct view TV: set your DVD Player to 4:3 (or 'standard') and leave it there. All movies, of whatever 'Aspect Ratio' will be shown in the correct AR, regardless of whether they are 'enhanced for widescreen TVs' or not

2) You are watching DVDs on a 'widescreen' (16:9) direct view TV: set your DVD Player to 16:9 (or 'widescreen') and leave it there. All movies, of whatever 'Aspect Ratio' will be shown in the correct AR, regardless of whether they are 'enhanced for widescreen TVs' or not

3) You are watching DVDs projected on either an RPTV, whether 'standard' (4:3) or 'widescreen (16:9), or onto a large-size screen, using a suitable video projector --- er, ahh, ummm consult both your player's and your TV's (or projector's) manuals about how to set either!... All movies, of whatever 'Aspect Ratio' should be shown in the correct AR, regardless of whether they are 'enhanced for widescreen TVs' or not.

Note: depending on make and model, widescreen TVs feature several 'stretch' or 'zoom' modes. These are really meant for (despicable, IMVHO!) Luddites who, cost what it may, must have a completely filled screen image, regardless of the distortion ('stretch') or loss of image quality ('zoom') that inevitably accompanies such an image mode (motto: anything is better than those g*dd@mn - horizontal or vertical - black bars on top and bottom or on each side of the image!...).

Just my take - from a person who lives in a part of the world where 'widescreen' TVs, although far from standard equipment, have been a familiar sight since a number of years - as have regular television programs that are filmed and broadcast in the actual 16:9 format... Apparently, Americans have only 'recently' discovered that there is such a thing?!...

Sorry for the rant!...

Peace!

! !



[This message has been edited by Hendrik (edited 01-04-2000).]

FLA,

I think I have the answer to your wide problems, first of all check these things:

1) If you´re watching on a 16:9 TV, you´ll have to set the dvd player in 16:9 mode. That will assure you´ll always get the correct aspect ratio, and if your software is enhanced for wide tvs you´ll get the best resolution from it.

2) Make sure the tv is set to wide mode (not zooms, or 4:3 or nothing, just set in a mode it will display 16:9 images normally.)

3) Check the software, if it´s not enhanced for 16:9 Tvs, you won´t get any better picture, in fact you´ll get the same picture as if a 4:3 and worst: the people would look fat.

Now, I think that the problem is with the software not the hardware. I think that the English Patient is not enhancend for 16:9, I said so because you mentioned that you could see black bars, a 1.85 film displayed on a 16:9 with anamorphics don´t show any bars at all, but a 2.35 film does (because of its aspect ratio) so, a 2.35 enhanced dvd does keep its aspect ratio on a 16:9 tv properly set, how can you tell? because it shows the black bars, how can you tell it´s anamorphic? because these black bars are not as big as in 4:3 displays (plus other technical details).

By the way: anyone knows why Buena vista is refusing to produce anamorphic dvds, are they nuts or what?