Why do you guys in the U.S. not use widescreen TVs?

I may be wrong but it is said in the U.K. Home Theatre press that the widescreen TV has not taken off over in America. Is this true and why? I have a widescreen TV and here in the U.K. they are starting to become more popular than 4:3 TVs. P.S. you don't know how lucky you are when it comes to prices for hardware. When I was in L.A. on holiday this year most hardware was half the price that it is in the U.K. (but don't let me get started on that!).

The short answer(well as short as I can make it):

Widescreen Televisions will become the norm in the U.S. in 2006. Currently the U.S. has no reason to update to widescreen TVs since most TV programming would have black bars on the sides. The U.K. also has a standard broadcasting signal. The U.S. has yet to reach a standard. The choice is between 720i & 1080i. If the TV manufacturers built TVs to the 1080i specs then nothing bad would happen since, it can downconvert. However, should TV manufacturers begin building TVs to the 720i spec, then these TVs would need a new converter box. It also takes time for the networks to upgrade thier systems to digital and HDTV. Currently HDTV(widescreen broadcasting and digital picture) for a network like CBS is done on a seperate channel. Example: Channel 2 in LA has the analog signal and another Channel(depending on the surrounding region) has the digital signal.

Another factor is that people are not willing to pay for Widescreen TVs. Yes, they are cheaper than the U.K. but they are still relatively expensive. A normal 4:3 TV 36" goes for $800.00, while a widescreen 16:9 50" TV goes for $3000.00. That is a lot of money buddy. You could go to say Japan and see the PSX2 selling for around $300.00 U.S. equivalent, compare that to a Japanese DVD player going for $1000.00 U.S. equivalent. Now the U.S. PSX2 may be $250.00 with a DVD player selling for $190.00. Prices in different regions vary according to the market.

Yes, the U.S. will have widescreen TVs but it will take time. I am sure that not everyone in the U.K. has a widescreen TV maybe 30 percent.



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Bob the Puppet

[Rejemy]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of America, but I have my widescreen TV, so I've done my part.

I'd say that yes, the reason nobody in America has widescreen TVs is that there's no widescreen TV broadcasts. Sure, there's a few HDTV channels here and there, but until HDTV becomes more popular (and much less expensive), your average TV viewer is better off sticking ot 4:3

As near as I can tell, the only people getting widescreen TV sets are home theater DVD folk, since pretty much the only reason to get a widescreen TV is to be able to watch 16x9 DVDs at full resolution.

[Greg Solo]

I want the next TV I buy to be large. They're still very expensive. When the C3D company starts making hi-def DVDs I will be more entised. I made the joyous switch to DVD when the makers collectively decided to lower prices. Hint. Hint.

Hey I'm DVD folk & I want a 16.9 tv.......I also want the money to afford the damn thing too....$3000.00 plus!!!???
A 2006 prediction for a majority of HDTV's in households is pretty naive I think if prices don't fall considerably or we all become middle class over night(I mean ALL of us).

-Dougpirana

[Dr. Evil]

I may be wrong but it is said in the U.K. Home Theatre press that the widescreen TV has not taken off over in America. Is this true and why?

Widescreen RPTV's are selling so fast in the U.S. right now that there are waiting lists for them. 800.com dropped all but one of them from their RPTV page, because they could not get adequate stock (they would order 20 Toshibas and get 4 shipped).

I recently ordered a Panasonic 56-inch, and was told stock was expected in late April or early May. Someone else I know was told by good guys! that there was an indefinite wait for the TW40X81; when he was offered a three-week wait at One Call, he immediately ordered one.

I think the biggest reason people are buying widescreens is DVD, but I could be wrong. It's why I ordered one, and why the other fellow ordered his.

Cheers, RD

[Chromy]

Just for clarification, the two High Def contenders here in the US are 720p and 1080i. With 720p you get more scan lines per each pass while 1080i has more combined resolution.

I would agree that the two primary factors are lack of television programming (and a second to this is lack of CABLE programming) and the other is that they are very prohibitivly expensive. I would assume that even those in the middle class find it hard to spend $3,000 dollars plus on a TV. Remember that TV isn't as important to everyone as it is to the home theater enthusiast

Prices will have to drop for mass consumer acception to take place. I see this happening as prices in the electronics get cheaper and the "novelty" of a WS set declines. DLP should help this out as they can make cheap HD rear projection TV's that are alot more "consumer friendly" using DLP technology than they can with CRT technology, and higher quality than the current rear projection LCD displays.

Chromy

[Dr. Evil]

I would agree that the two primary factors are lack of television programming (and a second to this is lack of CABLE programming) and the other is that they are very prohibitivly expensive. I would assume that even those in the middle class find it hard to spend $3,000 dollars plus on a TV.

Actually, demand outstrips supply for those still-pricey units; stores are having a tough time getting stock. That's why 800.com dropped most of its widescreens.

Prices will have to drop for mass consumer acception to take place.

Not only that, but smaller models are needed, too. I looked around Magnolia today, and the smallest 16x9 they had was a 34-inch. Do you know if the manufacturers are going to start offering models in more traditional sizes?

RD

Acually, isn't the 34" WS set basicly a 27" or 32" streched on the sides? I'm willing to bet, when HDTV becomes the norm, you'll see a plethora of WS sets in all manner of sizes. Pioneer has introduced two new WS RPHDTV, the 53" and the 58". Toshiba has a wonderful "little" 40" WS RPHDTV that they can't make enough of. We are constantly having to tell our customers that we are unable to get that model. When my 50" standard NTSC model finally quits, I'm probabbly going for the 40" Toshiba.

j


------------------
Please excuse my worse than normal typing as I Had surgery to remove
subcutanious absess and am using only my right arm to type.
"Thank you for your cooperation."

My widescreen arrives on Saturday!

[Dr. Evil]

Acually, isn't the 34" WS set basicly a 27" or 32" streched on the sides?

No idea - I just caught a glimpse of one in the showroom. Too small for me now.

When my 50" standard NTSC model finally quits, I'm probabbly going for the 40" Toshiba.

Alas, I bought my 55-inch Toshiba NTSC just a year ago, and already I find myself replacing it (Panasonic PT-56WXF95).

Joe:

My widescreen arrives on Saturday!

Lucky you! I'm going to wait until I move at the end of April before I take delivery. I only want to be moving that thing once this year!

Cheers, RD

Well, if that's the case, I hope mine fails soon. I purchased mine from Best Buy(surprise, surprise!) along with the 4yr in home service contract. That contract stipulates that after the third repair, if the unit requires a fourth repair, Best Buy(accually,the service contract providor, N.E.W.) will replace my unit.
Lets see, how far can/will prices fall in the next four years on the new DTV's? hopefully enough to where I only have to shell out a couple hundred for a brand spankin new DTV

j

------------------
Please excuse my worse than normal typing as I Had surgery to remove
subcutanious absess and am using only my right arm to type.
"Thank you for your cooperation."

1) Because they haven't been making them all that long; 2) because they don't have many direct view (tube) sets.

I've coveted the Sony 28-34" (what's that in metric?) WS sets at codefree.com (when they had them). Shipping was prohibitive, as was the fact that it only accepts NTSC via an input, which means that you have to watch tv thru your vcr's tuner or just use it for your dvd player only "monitor".

I would've really liked the 28". I don't really need a big tv; i want a W-I-D-E tv.

List of reasons:

1. Lack of HDTV programming
2. Lack of support by cable (only DSS or UHF)
3. 720p vs 1080i -> higher decoder/TV cost
4. High cost of TVs, plus many "HDTV" ready that require an additional decoder
5. RGB vs PrPb component connections
6. Dearth of direct view sets, and they typically are not significantly cheaper than the RPTVs!
7. Only huge sets available (34" and up)

A 34" 16:9 set is as wide as a normal 37" TV and as high as a 27" TV.

IMHO 16:9 TVs have to be a comparable price to normal TVs before they will make a dent in the market. And cost that must include an HDTV decoder.

[Chromy]

RJ, you are the first person that I have ever heard complain about lack of availability And not that I'm saying that this is not a very real problem. Temporarily supply may be overshadowed by demand, but... without programming and a lowering in cost there are only so many DVD enthusiasts out there that are going to gobble these sets up

Chromy

Excuse me "JSpartan", Black bars on the sides and on the top on bottom of a 16:9 TV showing "normal" 4:3 broadcasts?!? Mwaa ha ha ha ha !! What utter crap! Here in S Africa, we too, use the oh so way superior PAL system like the UK and Europe and other better informed places! we've also had 16:9 TVs for the past 5 or 6 years already, like the UK and Europe. Yes, gasp, BEFORE the advent of DVD and the overhyped HDTV! Why oh why, are you people waiting for the "miracle" of HDTV to justfy widescreen??
You need to get them NOW! And let me explain, once and for all, current 4:3 broadcsts are ALL digitally enhanced and "converted" into "panaramic" mode by 16:9 sets to fill the ENTIRE screen! There are NO friggin' bloody black bars -COMPRENDE?? You should check out broadcasts of the "Simpsons", "Babylon 5" etc, on my 32" JVC widescreen - man, you people have'nt lived yet!! AND, you should know that out here in advanced PAL regions, the BBC and others are ALREADY broadcsting certain stuff in 16:9 - gasp, on NORMAL Sattalite and land based output, NO HDTV necessary - golly gosh!! And further more, as a broadcst cameraman myself, let me tell you that all newer broadcast cameras have 16:9 switchable, aspect ratio lenses - and yes, we're already shooting in 16:9. So remember folks, 4:3 pictures are very comfortably "up-converted" to 16:9 on widescreen sets - fear not! A joke to leave you with - what does NTSC stand for? Never Twice the Same Colour! Mwaa ha ha ha !!
I also think that those who obviously do not own 16:9 sets have very funny ideas about them - further confusing in an obviously very young and naive American 16:9 market!


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DVDAddict,

That is not true about the U.S. It may be true about S. Africa and the U.K. but not here. You seem to like to bash Americans. Are you racist?

From the demos I have seen, WE DO GET BLACK BARS ON THE SIDES. Not on the top and bottom. The black bars on the top and bottom only appear when viewing 4x3 widescreen films. The only way to get a digital broadcast in the U.S. is by using the alternate channel set aside for digital. It takes time for stations to change. What happened five years ago when you first got widescreen TV? It couldn't be that all the stations were in widescreen could it? You had widescreen for five years so your technology caught up. We are just scratching the surface.

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Bob the Puppet

[Rejemy]

DVDAddict, you are completely misinformed. I've never been to South Africa, but here in the USA, when watching 4x3 video on a widescreen TV, there are blank areas on the left and right (they are usually grey these days, not black). You CAN stretch the video out to cover the whole screen, but IMHO that's worse than pan and scan. Ugh. Leave aspect ratios alone.

Furthermore, "The Simpsons" and most other shows are not broadcasted in 16x9. If that's the way you're viewing it, it's either cropped or stretched, either way being unaceptable. (In the US, there are a few newer HDTV shows being broadcasted in 16x9, "Who Wants to Be a Millionare" springs to mind)

Rejemy,

You are correct, they are greyon most every widescreen TV. On some Toshiba models they are blue bars(?!). The demos I saw were the first generation Panasonic and Proscan/RCA models and these had black bars.

Oh and the only TV shows ever done in widescreen from the start are:

The X Files(1.66:1-1.85:1)-mostly filmed in matted widescreen since the movie came out.

Stargate SG-1(1.85:1)-the original aspect ratio of the film is carried over to the show.

Babylon 5(1.85:1)-One of the first shows done in widescreen every season, which may explain why DVDAddict claims it is widescreen but it is not digitally enhanced.



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Bob the Puppet

[Chromy]

Most producers of TV shows now know that their shows will have to survive in the HD world. Just as some movie producers utilize soft matting for their movies so that 4:3 video versions can be shown full frame insead of pan and scan, TV producers are keeping the 16:9 ratio in mind when framing their shots.

When I cropped the top and bottom off of TV shows with my 16:9 set they seldom 'looked' like they were missing anything because of the care taken while framing the shots.

Chromy

I think calling me a "Racist" was an unecessary and un-called for low blow "JSpartan"! And since S Africa now has a far better, more comprensive and more modern democratic constitution now, than even that of the US, it's even a lower blow and quite an insult! Example - we have NO censor board, ALL films are totally UNRATED - talk about freedom of choice eh? You guys still have to put up with censors, lobby groups and all sorts of other crap about films' content.
Please just accept the fact that, gasp(!), other parts of the world may just be ahead and, even superior to the US, in certain areas - we ARE ahead in broadcasting and cellular technology - (are'nt most your mobile networks still on analogue?) - so yes it IS possiple for the US to be lagging behind - sorry! If you deduce that as "Racism" - then it just seems you have an incredibly bad dose of "intolerance" - "Racism vs Intolerance" - um, er, what's the difference my friend ?!?
And yes, I'm afraid to say, but the popular opinion in the rest of the world is that alot of Americans can't handle being upstaged or admit when they are outclassed in something - and your reaction, ironically, was a text book case in point! And no, I have nothing against the US, it's an amazing country, but hey it's not the ONLY country!

Anyway, this has NOTHING to do with our UNIVERSAL love DVDs and widescreen TVs - but FACT, PAL is a FAR higher and superior resolution system than NTSC, go find out for yourself - NTSC is a terrible system and is kinda laughed at in our industry - sorry, but it's true! I took the NTSC joke out of a UK broadcast industry magazine.FACT, widescreens have been popular in PAL countries for the better part of the 90's already. FACT, because of that, out widescreen technology is mature and advanced, unlike in NTSC territries. And "Rejemy", no, I'm NOT "misinformed" - and as a broadcst professional, I'd be worried if I was! "Panoramic" modes on widescreen "stretch" 4:3 broadcsts quite beautifully to fill out the whole screen - and no, everything does'nt look all "squashed" and "fat" in panoramic mode. And, no, I never said "Simpsons" was ever widescreen, I said it looked really cool "enhanced" in panoramic mode Jeremy - you totally misunderstood. FACT, SkyDigital, BBC etc, are broadcsting in 16:9, so yes, PAL territories are ahead of the US.

Oh and "JSpartan" - I don't think your ill percieved "America bashing" could even qualify being called "racism", since that applies to interacial confrontations NOT "inter-national" confrontations - I think the word you were after is "Zenophobic" or "Zenophobia" - so when you accuse someone else of that in the future, now you'll have the correct terminology!
So, c'mon, lighten up bro! I'm sorry you felt "insulted" in any way, but it seems a clear cut fact that, we, in other territories are currently enjoying far better benefits in 16:9 technology.




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[Dr. Evil]

RJ, you are the first person that I have ever heard complain about lack of availability

I've read about it on HTF, and know someone on DVD Talk who was told by good guys! that there was an indefinite wait on TW40X81. 800.com has dropped all but one of the widescreen models due to lack of supply. As for my PT-56WXF95, I'm looking at late April.

Temporarily supply may be overshadowed by demand,

It's a good sign, though, that demand is high, even for these boutique-type items.

but... without programming

According to the salesman at Magnolia, NTSC and HDTV programming are supposed to get equal time by 2002. Hopefully this timetable will be held to.

and a lowering in cost there are only so many DVD enthusiasts out there that are going to gobble these sets up

Yes, that's a very good point. I can only hope that once the amount of HDTV programming reaches viable levels nationwide, that smaller, affordable 16x9 sets proliferate.

Cheers, RD

[This message has been edited by Dr. Evil (edited 03-15-2000).]

First the rebuttal:

And since S Africa now has a far better, more comprensive and more modern democratic constitution now, than even that of the US, it's even a lower blow and quite an insult! Example - we have NO censor board, ALL films are totally UNRATED - talk about freedom of choice eh? You guys still have to put up with censors, lobby groups and all sorts of other crap about films' content.
Please just accept the fact that, gasp(!), other parts of the world may just be ahead and, even superior to the US, in certain areas - we ARE ahead in broadcasting and cellular technology - (are'nt most your mobile networks still on analogue?) - so yes it IS possiple for the US to be lagging behind - sorry! If you deduce that as "Racism" - then it just seems you have an incredibly bad dose of "intolerance" - "Racism vs Intolerance" - um, er, what's the difference my friend ?!?
And yes, I'm afraid to say, but the popular opinion in the rest of the world is that alot of Americans can't handle being upstaged or admit when they are outclassed in something - and your reaction, ironically, was a text book case in point! And no, I have nothing against the US, it's an amazing country, but hey it's not the ONLY country!

Anyway, this has NOTHING to do with our UNIVERSAL love DVDs and widescreen TVs - but FACT, PAL is a FAR higher and superior resolution system than NTSC, go find out for yourself - NTSC is a terrible system and is kinda laughed at in our industry - sorry, but it's true!

You don't call this bashing a system?

I took the NTSC joke out of a UK broadcast industry magazine.

This is not racist? Well it certainly is prejudiced.

FACT, widescreens have been popular in PAL countries for the better part of the 90's already.

Ok, so how come China, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore still have 4x3 TVs and non-anomorphic transfer of films?

FACT, because of that, out widescreen technology is mature and advanced, unlike in NTSC territries.

More prejudice against a "system"

And "Rejemy", no, I'm NOT "misinformed" - and as a broadcst professional, I'd be worried if I was! "Panoramic" modes on widescreen "stretch" 4:3 broadcsts quite beautifully to fill out the whole screen - and no, everything does'nt look all "squashed" and "fat" in panoramic mode.

They do on U.S. 16:9 TVs.

And, no, I never said "Simpsons" was ever widescreen, I said it looked really cool "enhanced" in panoramic mode Jeremy - you totally misunderstood.

Yes, you did. Read your first post again.

FACT, SkyDigital, BBC etc, are broadcsting in 16:9, so yes, PAL territories are ahead of the US.

Again explain most of Asia.

I'm sorry you felt "insulted" in any way, but it seems a clear cut fact that, we, in other territories are currently enjoying far better benefits in 16:9 technology.

So you have progressive scan? All of your stations are broadcasting in full 16:9 without using the "panaramic mode"? One more time...Asia?


Now for the "intelligent portion" or as DVDAddict racially slurs it textbook case:

DVD Addict,

You want a textbook case? Go back and read your response.

I am insulted by you and your comments. Plain and simple. What you are dong is in fact bashing. It is obvious by your answers that you have never been to the U.S. and that you can not tolerate anything different than your system. What you stated was incorrect for our country. I was trying to educate you on this. Instead you decide to "take the txtbook case of racism" instead of simply stating "I see your point." You defend a system that has been in use for many years and defecate a system that is still growing. This to me is true negativity and intolerance to learn and understand.

PAL may be superior in some things but if it weren't for NTSC systems, you wouldn't be even watching the Simpsons, Babylon 5, or X Files.

If there are no censors, no bounds would be set to protect us. Plus we can have the option of saying on movie boxes "Uncut and Unrated." By the way S. Africa at least has to have a ratings system or limits on things. Otherwise little boys and girls would be watcing pornography on TV and seeing someone get their head blown up like a melon in movies.

Oh and by laughing that does signify "prejudice" and "racism", simple fact.

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Bob the Puppet

[This message has been edited by JSpartan (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Rejemy]

DVDAddict:

Well, I hate to keep this going, but something about the way you write gets under my skin, so here we go:

Ok, so you love PAL, that's great. PAL is superior to NTSC in some ways. But you must admit that this has no bearing on this discussion (which, if I recal correctly, is "Why aren't WS TVs popular in the US). Both NTSC and PAL were designed with 4:3 in mind, and neither of them will magically display more information on a 16:9 TV. Period. You can "zoom" it, cropping the tops and bottoms of the signal. You can stretch it, but that only works if the source material is anamorphic - otherwise, you end up with a distorted image. And yes, there are compromise modes such as "just" and "panorama", the crop a little on the top and bottom, and fisheye out the edges of the picture to fill the screen.

I guess the thing that mystifies me is this: You're obviously a connoisseur of fine video quality, you'd have to be to be so obsessed about the minor benefits of PAL. So if you're interested in tip top video quality, why butcher your 4:3 videos to fit your wide TV?

[This message has been edited by Rejemy (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Chromy]

JSpartan: You need to stop pushing peoples buttons... I've started getting email complaints about you from various people. Why call someone a "racist." The fact is that he said nothing about anyones race.

DVD Addict: You didn't need to say "What utter crap!." There are more tactfull ways to go about arguments.

Both of your postings get under my skin and seem inflamatory. Argue with your brains and not with your emotions people...

Example: If PAL is better, give reasons, rather than just sounding superior...


RJ:

According to the salesman at Magnolia, NTSC and HDTV programming are supposed to get equal time by
2002. Hopefully this timetable will be held to.

First of all, you know how I feel about the salesmen at Magnolia After getting strung around for 2 months with my set it'll take an act of God to get me back in there again...

Really, it's the same argument that I use for HDDVD. Many many things have to happen before there is enough programming to be half and half digital... first, a cable standard has to be agreed on, then converter boxes have to be made and distributed, then enough shows have to be made with HD gear, and...

I'll buy the fact that there is a shortage now, several manufacturers have been having problems and it seems that demand picked up as soon as people realize that this wasn't just going to be some fad. Probably around christmas time... Bowl season

However, I think that programming in many areas is falling behind. Some of the estimates that I have seen have talked about having to move the 2006 date back because the changes are happening too slow. I'm not sure when (or where) this data was from, so even I'm skeptical about the accuracy of the report in the here and now.

Lower prices and smaller sets have to come to keep the adoption rate high. My parents are in the middle class... but they wouldn't even spend $1,000 for a new TV. The last TV they got was a hand me down from my sister and brother-in-law. For many, many people out there, quality TV entertainment just isn't that important and I think that is something that we often overlook as home theater enthusiasts. We drop $4000+ dollars on a TV and our friends look at us with a puzzled look and say something like "I could have made a good healty downpayment on a new car with that cash" or "I could travel around Europe for a month on that cash" or something like that. Priorities are different from person to person and there is a majic point where the price drops low enough that the average person will find a digital TV a good investment of their enternainment money. I have a feeling that current prices and sizes are far above that point.

Chromy

[This message has been edited by Chromy (edited 03-16-2000).]

I shall try and bring a relatively neutral viewpoint to this debate. Firstly, widescreen TVs here in the UK can quite easily adapt the picture of a 4:3 broadcast by cropping both the top and bottom. However, this does not detract from picture quality. Secondly, the difference between PAL and NTSC is noticeable, but the difference between a quality R1 DVD and an R2 DVD is negligible. Thirdly, the bloke from South Africa is overstating the 'greatness' of PAL, and by the way what did South Africa ever contribute to film and TV?

The h*ll?!

I am pushing someone's button?! DVDAddict starting this argument. He starts it, complains, and *I* get in trouble? Thanks a lot Chromy. I spent the time to highlight DVDAddicts post, ask him some simple questions to prove his point, and I get shot for it? Again thanks a lot. I also pulled back my racist comment by changing it to prejudice, still get shot in the *ss by a "Producer."

Sorry to those people reading this and going: "Man he is trying to start something" but the questions still remains. How can I get in trouble for a rebuttal?

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Bob the Puppet

[This message has been edited by JSpartan (edited 03-16-2000).]

"true negativity and intolerance"....

...in south africa?...........


NAAAAAAAAAAAH.


take that anyway you want to...

-Dougpirana

[Chromy]

JSpartan, I probably should have been more clear... I was talking about this post...

That is not true about the U.S. It may be true about S. Africa and the U.K. but not here. You seem to like to bash Americans. Are you racist?

I would consider this an inflamatory response and this is what I was talking about


I also mentioed that DVDAddict was also being inflamatory.


This thread needs to get back on track. You can aim your inflamatory arguments at each other or at me through email. Let's talk about the subject at hand.

Chromy