Why letterbox? - DVDfile.com forum for DVD, Blu-Ray, and HD-DVD

***SeanL*** · 07-10-2001, 04:55 PM

I have to applaud Fox for thinking to include this on the new Die Hard disc.
I'm not gonna bother to explain letterboxing Vs Pan-n-Scan ever again. I'll just put the Die Hard disc on and show 'em.

I think every studio should put something like that on all their widescreen preentations, or at the very least, their SE's.

While I'm at it, I must say that Fox REALLY did a good job on the new Die Hard SE.
Way to go Fox!

------------------
Sean

I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, when he said, "I drank what?"

saraswati · 07-10-2001, 05:11 PM

i've seen a few of these. steven soderbergh must be a widescreen evangelist, because most of his discs have a "why widescreen?" feature, usually creatively put together and very informative (even to someone like me who doesn't need to be educated). i agree, this should come standard, maybe part of the dvd design credits.

------------------
deep in the heat of the bush...

TheJeffy · 07-10-2001, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by saraswati:
i've seen a few of these. steven soderbergh must be a widescreen evangelist, because most of his discs have a "why widescreen?" feature, usually creatively put together and very informative (even to someone like me who doesn't need to be educated). i agree, this should come standard, maybe part of the dvd design credits.

Yep, his 'King of the Hill' laserdisc even had a very interesting segment on how the film was framed and why they decided on a certain ratio for the disc.

Disco Stu · 07-10-2001, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheJeffy:
Yep, his 'King of the Hill' laserdisc even had a very interesting segment on how the film was framed and why they decided on a certain ratio for the disc.

So you're the other person who owns that LD. Also on the DVD (and LD) of "The Underneath" he has a very cool "Why Letterbox?" section that uses a split focus shot as an example. And on "The Limey" DVD there's also the anamorphic comparison, including an exhaustive explanation of all things anamorphic that's quite informative.

------------------
Arrogance is bliss

Poidog · 07-13-2001, 09:51 AM

So why if some studios are pushing anamorphic DVDs, then why aren't widescreen TVs more accepted in the USA? They're so hard to find (esp. here in Hawaii) and they're so expensive. Demand will bring prices down but there's no demand.

It seems that most consumers still want 4x3 TVs because it's "bigger" and when they watch TV (e.g., sports), they'd rather have it tall and wide than just wide.

Most lower-priced widescreen TVs are the bulky all-in-one units that are so big and heavy. Where are the tabletop models? (Thank you for one, Mitsubishi, the 46" model.)

Retailers aren't doing a great job of convincing people how widescreen TVs will enhance most DVDs and HD TV programs. They're mostly concerned with selling what's hot now and that's STILL 4x3 monitors. Welcome to the business world.

If more TV programs were filmed in widescreen, then maybe things would start rolling. No one seems to complain that E.R. is shown in "widescreen" although the "black bars" are very small. Try showing E.R. in a 2.35:1 ratio...

The Die Hard Widescreen feature is great but does it tell about advanced resolution (i.e., anamorphic enhancement)?

This is one thing that still gets to me. We have a group advocating the benefits of widescreen and anamophic enhancements. Then we have the consumers (like MGM says exist from their surveys) who still want fullscreen or pan & scan.

Sigh. Let's go back to showing movies in the 4x3 mode already. NAH!

Where are the big DVD Web site campaigns to get widescreen TVs down in price? Get the word out to those MGM survey takers? Is it because most of them (the Web site reviewers) already have widescreen TVs so they don't care?

I would love to see a feature that shows how anamorphic DVDs would look better on a widescreen TV (even if the movie was filmed fullscreen and matted) in addition to why it's better than pan & scan. Then maybe we'll see more demand for widescreen TVs which would bring the costs down.

------------------
Aloha & Mahalo,
Poidog

[This message has been edited by Poidog (edited 07-13-2001).]

saraswati · 07-13-2001, 02:30 PM

i don't think it's lack of demand that's keeping prices up, i think it's prices that are keeping demand down. every widescreen TV i've seen is over $1000. compare that to your standard 4:3 non-HDTV, which sells for a couple hundred. you're the typical middle-class american who watches a normal amount of TV, you're not a HT freak, you haven't even been taught the beauty of OAR. which are you gonna go for?

also, i've noticed that the first few years that a new electronic product is available in a retail maintsream kind of way, it's always expensive. remember how much the first nintendos and playstations cost? i remember knowing people in '97 or so who had bought dvd players for close to $500. i remember my dad bought a discman right when they came out, they were like $150. now you can get them for half or a third of that. after 2 or 3 years on the market, electonics tend to go way down in price.

------------------
deep in the heat of the bush...

egman · 07-13-2001, 02:56 PM

You make a good point about electronics going down in price saraswati, but HDTV has been around for awhile now, and there seems to be no significant changes in it's demand.

I do think this is a retailer problem. Right now I think the majority of consumers look at HDTVs as a niche format. Retailers need to convince them otherwise. Consumers should not only to be educated on the benefits of HDTV, but they also need to realize that this is were the market is going. Eventually the switch will have to be made, so right now it would be a good time to start seriously looking into the technology.

I think another probelm I'm seeing is what being is marketed. I think most people when they think of HDTV think of some big projection screen that can't even fit into their homes, not realizing there are varying types of HDTVs. Again, retailers need to step up to the plate advertize the whole spectrum of HDTV technology.

Unless manufactures want to take a hit in their profits, the only way I see prices dropping will be from consumers displaying a demand for the technology. And there will be no demand unless retailers can make consumers fully aware of what's out there.

manigrasso · 07-13-2001, 03:34 PM

I can kind of agree with egman on this one. For every educated salesperson, there's 8 to 10 uneducated ones happy to just wade in the trough until they find customers more ignorant than they are about product, and sell them what's in stock. I was in retail, along time ago, and I still feel like I know just as much, if not more than, the sales reps who try to help me out, and talking to them usually bears this out. I'm not saying "I'm that smart." I'm saying "They're that ignorant."

I can't tell you how many times I've walked into a store where a widescreen tv is set up, but they're broadcasting a 4:3 image blown up, so it looks like shite. Either it's their cable/DSS feed, OR they take a non-anamorphic DVD and blow it up. It doesn't look as sharp as the set should look, and I know that, if I didn't know any better, I'd be turned off, too. There's a store next to my office on Broadway that's always playing Disney discs, in 4:3 ratio, blown up on a widescreen. Looks horrible.

However, the costs of HDTV & HDTV-ready sets have come down in the NY/NJ area, just not to a point that I'd consider affordable. It was quite a while before widescreen TVs were in the $1500 range. My first VCR of my own (it was 1988, and I was in college) was a 2-head non-stereo Funai-FUNAI!-that cost me $200. Now I can buy a 4-head stereo name brand with VCR-Plus and universal remote for half that (however, I gave my Funai to my mom, and damned if that sucker STILL isn't working fine, almost 14 years later). Hell, I can buy a name brand DVD player for less than $200!

Since the TVs are so expensive to begin with, even early adopters have to be loaded. They'll come down. Patience, pedawah, patience

Dr. Evil · 07-14-2001, 01:51 AM

There are a lot more widescreen TVs around than there were in 1999, and the prices are lower, too. In fact, I've seen them for under $1600 now.

Too bad no manufacturer has seen fit to produce a smaller model with a correspondingly lower price.

RD

esc · 07-15-2001, 01:10 AM

where can i find this on the new die hard disc(s)?

************************

Doh! maybe i should have looked at the box. its actually pictured on the back under The Cutting Room.

shoot me, but i alway kinda liked the P/S version of Die Hard for some of the reasons they state in the Why Letterbox commentary. for alot of the shots you do feel 'uncomfortably close' to the actors and it adds to the clostrophobic atmosphere of the film. i am happy to finally own an anamorphic widescreen version though!

[This message has been edited by esc (edited 07-14-2001).]

Chris in OC · 07-15-2001, 01:57 AM

Something that would help sell widescreen, I think, would be to run a brief "why letterbox" clip in movie theaters before the film starts. Show a clip from a very popular movie, cropped to 4:3, and with the sides of the movie screen left black or at least dimmed down. I think this would give people a better idea of what they're missing with pan and scan, and in a way they can't tune out because WS doesn't "fill" the screen. Getting someone like Spielberg to put in his two cents would also help.

Here in the L.A. area, they often run 2- to 4-minute featurettes about one or another of the filmmakers' craft (cinematography, FX, stunts, etc.) sponsored by the L.A. Times. Perhaps a "why WS" piece could be set under an umbrella like that.

Drexl · 07-15-2001, 04:28 AM

Quote:

I can't tell you how many times I've walked into a store where a widescreen tv is set up, but they're broadcasting a 4:3 image blown up, so it looks like shite.

I know what you mean. I walk in Best Buy, and they have maybe 3 or 4 16:9 HDTVs, and probably a hundred 4:3 non-HDTV's. They have a single HD feed going to every set. On the 16:9 sets, the picture looks right, but on all the others, it's vertically stretched (as if watching a DVD in 16:9 mode on a non-16:9 TV). I wonder how many complaints they're getting about that.

And what is with these 4:3 HDTV's I'm seeing in ads? How do these work? Don't tell me they're gonna have HDTV programming in 4:3. Do they have a 16:9 mode (like some of the Sony WEGAs) which vertically squeezes the image to show the wide image without sacrificing resolution?

George McFly · 07-18-2001, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris in OC:
Something that would help sell widescreen, I think, would be to run a brief "why letterbox" clip in movie theaters before the film starts. Show a clip from a very popular movie, cropped to 4:3, and with the sides of the movie screen left black or at least dimmed down. I think this would give people a better idea of what they're missing with pan and scan, and in a way they can't tune out because WS doesn't "fill" the screen. Getting someone like Spielberg to put in his two cents would also help.

Here in the L.A. area, they often run 2- to 4-minute featurettes about one or another of the filmmakers' craft (cinematography, FX, stunts, etc.) sponsored by the L.A. Times. Perhaps a "why WS" piece could be set under an umbrella like that.

GREAT IDEA--P&S sucks!!!!!!!!

tomdkat · 07-18-2001, 01:51 AM

DO they explain why the format is called "letterbox" vs something else.... like "numberbox" or "Bob"?

Peace.....

***SeanL*** · 07-18-2001, 06:04 AM

Quote:

DO they explain why the format is called "letterbox" vs something else.... like "numberbox" or "Bob"?

They were gonna call it Tomdkat, but that didn't roll off the tongue very well....so they went with letterbox.

They do make mention of why it's called lettebox. Some engineer years ago, commented how with the black bars it was like looking thru the slot of a "letterbox".

------------------
Sean

I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, when he said, "I drank what?"

***1138*** · 07-18-2001, 07:47 AM

I was just going through the special features of the disc while perusing the boards and lo and behold, right after I watch it I see this topic updated.

Ditto everyone else. Very well done and very informative. They seem to mention all of the horrors of Pan and Scan succinctly and efficiently.

------------------
1138 - DVD File Forum Greeter/Moderator
We're gonna need some more FBI guys I guess.

07-10-2001, 04:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
*SeanL* Producer/Admin Got BMG? Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NW Florida	Why letterbox? I have to applaud Fox for thinking to include this on the new Die Hard disc. I'm not gonna bother to explain letterboxing Vs Pan-n-Scan ever again. I'll just put the Die Hard disc on and show 'em. I think every studio should put something like that on all their widescreen preentations, or at the very least, their SE's. While I'm at it, I must say that Fox REALLY did a good job on the new Die Hard SE. Way to go Fox! ------------------ Sean I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, when he said, "I drank what?"

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07-10-2001, 05:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
saraswati Actress Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: New York City?!	i've seen a few of these. steven soderbergh must be a widescreen evangelist, because most of his discs have a "why widescreen?" feature, usually creatively put together and very informative (even to someone like me who doesn't need to be educated). i agree, this should come standard, maybe part of the dvd design credits. ------------------ deep in the heat of the bush...

07-13-2001, 09:51 AM	#5 (permalink)
Poidog Actor Join Date: Jun 2000	So why if some studios are pushing anamorphic DVDs, then why aren't widescreen TVs more accepted in the USA? They're so hard to find (esp. here in Hawaii) and they're so expensive. Demand will bring prices down but there's no demand. It seems that most consumers still want 4x3 TVs because it's "bigger" and when they watch TV (e.g., sports), they'd rather have it tall and wide than just wide. Most lower-priced widescreen TVs are the bulky all-in-one units that are so big and heavy. Where are the tabletop models? (Thank you for one, Mitsubishi, the 46" model.) Retailers aren't doing a great job of convincing people how widescreen TVs will enhance most DVDs and HD TV programs. They're mostly concerned with selling what's hot now and that's STILL 4x3 monitors. Welcome to the business world. If more TV programs were filmed in widescreen, then maybe things would start rolling. No one seems to complain that E.R. is shown in "widescreen" although the "black bars" are very small. Try showing E.R. in a 2.35:1 ratio... The Die Hard Widescreen feature is great but does it tell about advanced resolution (i.e., anamorphic enhancement)? This is one thing that still gets to me. We have a group advocating the benefits of widescreen and anamophic enhancements. Then we have the consumers (like MGM says exist from their surveys) who still want fullscreen or pan & scan. Sigh. Let's go back to showing movies in the 4x3 mode already. NAH! Where are the big DVD Web site campaigns to get widescreen TVs down in price? Get the word out to those MGM survey takers? Is it because most of them (the Web site reviewers) already have widescreen TVs so they don't care? I would love to see a feature that shows how anamorphic DVDs would look better on a widescreen TV (even if the movie was filmed fullscreen and matted) in addition to why it's better than pan & scan. Then maybe we'll see more demand for widescreen TVs which would bring the costs down. ------------------ Aloha & Mahalo, Poidog [This message has been edited by Poidog (edited 07-13-2001).]

07-13-2001, 02:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
saraswati Actress Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: New York City?!	i don't think it's lack of demand that's keeping prices up, i think it's prices that are keeping demand down. every widescreen TV i've seen is over $1000. compare that to your standard 4:3 non-HDTV, which sells for a couple hundred. you're the typical middle-class american who watches a normal amount of TV, you're not a HT freak, you haven't even been taught the beauty of OAR. which are you gonna go for? also, i've noticed that the first few years that a new electronic product is available in a retail maintsream kind of way, it's always expensive. remember how much the first nintendos and playstations cost? i remember knowing people in '97 or so who had bought dvd players for close to $500. i remember my dad bought a discman right when they came out, they were like $150. now you can get them for half or a third of that. after 2 or 3 years on the market, electonics tend to go way down in price. ------------------ deep in the heat of the bush...

07-13-2001, 02:56 PM	#7 (permalink)
egman Actor Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Lawrenceville, GA	You make a good point about electronics going down in price saraswati, but HDTV has been around for awhile now, and there seems to be no significant changes in it's demand. I do think this is a retailer problem. Right now I think the majority of consumers look at HDTVs as a niche format. Retailers need to convince them otherwise. Consumers should not only to be educated on the benefits of HDTV, but they also need to realize that this is were the market is going. Eventually the switch will have to be made, so right now it would be a good time to start seriously looking into the technology. I think another probelm I'm seeing is what being is marketed. I think most people when they think of HDTV think of some big projection screen that can't even fit into their homes, not realizing there are varying types of HDTVs. Again, retailers need to step up to the plate advertize the whole spectrum of HDTV technology. Unless manufactures want to take a hit in their profits, the only way I see prices dropping will be from consumers displaying a demand for the technology. And there will be no demand unless retailers can make consumers fully aware of what's out there.

07-13-2001, 03:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
manigrasso Forum Sage Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: NJ	I can kind of agree with egman on this one. For every educated salesperson, there's 8 to 10 uneducated ones happy to just wade in the trough until they find customers more ignorant than they are about product, and sell them what's in stock. I was in retail, along time ago, and I still feel like I know just as much, if not more than, the sales reps who try to help me out, and talking to them usually bears this out. I'm not saying "I'm that smart." I'm saying "They're that ignorant." I can't tell you how many times I've walked into a store where a widescreen tv is set up, but they're broadcasting a 4:3 image blown up, so it looks like shite. Either it's their cable/DSS feed, OR they take a non-anamorphic DVD and blow it up. It doesn't look as sharp as the set should look, and I know that, if I didn't know any better, I'd be turned off, too. There's a store next to my office on Broadway that's always playing Disney discs, in 4:3 ratio, blown up on a widescreen. Looks horrible. However, the costs of HDTV & HDTV-ready sets have come down in the NY/NJ area, just not to a point that I'd consider affordable. It was quite a while before widescreen TVs were in the $1500 range. My first VCR of my own (it was 1988, and I was in college) was a 2-head non-stereo Funai-FUNAI!-that cost me $200. Now I can buy a 4-head stereo name brand with VCR-Plus and universal remote for half that (however, I gave my Funai to my mom, and damned if that sucker STILL isn't working fine, almost 14 years later). Hell, I can buy a name brand DVD player for less than $200! Since the TVs are so expensive to begin with, even early adopters have to be loaded. They'll come down. Patience, pedawah, patience

07-14-2001, 01:51 AM	#9 (permalink)
Dr. Evil Actor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Microsoft country	There are a lot more widescreen TVs around than there were in 1999, and the prices are lower, too. In fact, I've seen them for under $1600 now. Too bad no manufacturer has seen fit to produce a smaller model with a correspondingly lower price. RD

07-15-2001, 01:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
esc Stay behind my aura! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: camrose, alberta, canada	where can i find this on the new die hard disc(s)? ************************ Doh! maybe i should have looked at the box. its actually pictured on the back under The Cutting Room. shoot me, but i alway kinda liked the P/S version of Die Hard for some of the reasons they state in the Why Letterbox commentary. for alot of the shots you do feel 'uncomfortably close' to the actors and it adds to the clostrophobic atmosphere of the film. i am happy to finally own an anamorphic widescreen version though! [This message has been edited by esc (edited 07-14-2001).]

07-15-2001, 01:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
Chris in OC Actor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: So Cal	Something that would help sell widescreen, I think, would be to run a brief "why letterbox" clip in movie theaters before the film starts. Show a clip from a very popular movie, cropped to 4:3, and with the sides of the movie screen left black or at least dimmed down. I think this would give people a better idea of what they're missing with pan and scan, and in a way they can't tune out because WS doesn't "fill" the screen. Getting someone like Spielberg to put in his two cents would also help. Here in the L.A. area, they often run 2- to 4-minute featurettes about one or another of the filmmakers' craft (cinematography, FX, stunts, etc.) sponsored by the L.A. Times. Perhaps a "why WS" piece could be set under an umbrella like that.

07-18-2001, 01:51 AM	#14 (permalink)
tomdkat Official Forum Warmonger "Dial Tone" Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hayward, CA, USA	DO they explain why the format is called "letterbox" vs something else.... like "numberbox" or "Bob"? Peace.....

07-18-2001, 07:47 AM	#16 (permalink)
*1138* Producer/Admin Careful, or I'll ban myself... Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: San Jose, CA	I was just going through the special features of the disc while perusing the boards and lo and behold, right after I watch it I see this topic updated. Ditto everyone else. Very well done and very informative. They seem to mention all of the horrors of Pan and Scan succinctly and efficiently. ------------------ 1138 - DVD File Forum Greeter/Moderator We're gonna need some more FBI guys I guess.