Subs

I am in the market for a new subwoofer and am wondering which one to get. I am looking for a subwoofer in the 150 watt - 200 watt range. Right now I've narrowed my choices down to one. The Infinity BU-120 150 watt sub. What do y'all think?

[Chromy]

Listen to Energy, Paradigm, and Klipsch subs too.

Just listen listen listen

Also, I was wondering something. Right now, I own a 50 watt powered subwoofer, it's ok, but I can only hear the base, I can't really feel it. How powerful a subwoofer do you have to have to feel the "Oomph" in your chest during big explosive action scenes? Ya know, like the footstomps of Godzilla or the explosions in the Matrix or Saving Private Ryan.... I'm a big fan of blockbuster action and sci fi movies, but my current sub just isn't getting it done.

Buddy,
A big part of what we need to know to answer that question comes from knowing the dimensions of your listening room. Also of help would be type of furnishings and any openings(doors/windows) to get a better idea of the amount of cubic feet your trying to fill. Please provide this info.

James(Jay)M.

It's not a big room. I wouldn't even say it's a medium sized room. I don't know the exact size, in cubic feet, but it's about the size of a small to mid sized living room. There is a window about 5 or so feet away, and a china cabinet about 6 or 7 feet away from the entertainment center. I have a small couch and a big couch, as well as a DVD rack where I store my DVDs. I have a 650 watt Aiwa Dolby Digital sound system with satellite speakers, not floor standing. It's one of those home theaters in a box type of system. 150 watts to the front left, right, and center, and 100 watts to the surrounds. I think that's right. Anyway, would the Infinity BU-120 be good with my system? I really can't stand my 50 watt powered sub, I can always hear intereference and rattling sounds when I'm playing an action scene with lots of explosions and bass activity. I hope this info helps.

OK, Buddy, that info helps.
Yes, the Infinity would probably do the job. As Chromy has mentioned, so would subs from Energy (their little 8" sub still amazes me in it's ability to go as low and loud as it does for under $350), Paradigm, Klipsch, and I'll add one of my favorite small sub co.s- Atlantic Technology (I got a pretty good deal on their PBM162s, $189 for an 8" sub with a VERY conservatively rated 70 watt built-in amp). Listen to and read about as many subs in your price range as you can. Also audition those out of your price range to be knowledgable about the trade offs your making.
When you do decide, keep in mind that any sub you get will sound different in YOUR listening environment than it does in the show room. And it will be effected greatly by how you position it in your room. Some trial and error will be needed to fine tune it. Another thing to keep in mind is treating your room by isolating anything that rattles. You mentioned a china cabinet. You might need to treat some or all of the items inside with a little sorbothane (a wonderful "padding" type of material that reduces vibrations caused by bass waves).

Good luck,
James(Jay)M.

Thanks for your help. I don't know if my dad we'll let me touch the stuff in his china cabinet with that padding stuff, but would placing it on the other side of the entertainment center be ok, next to the wall in the corner near the window, or would it make the window rattle?

Being a father, I'd say you'd be best off finding a position for the sub away from the cabinet and NOT treat anything in the room(or it's contents) acoustically in a permanent manner. The frequencies a subwoofer produces are comprised of long wave lengths of sound. By moving the sub around in the room you can vary which frequencies will be increased and which will be reduced and at what spot.

You can try this with the sub you now have (and may even discover that a new sub isn't neccessary).
A trick that sometimes works is to place the sub in your listening position/spot in the room, then walk around the whole room. Wherever the bass sounds the best is the spot to set your sub at. There is often an inverse correlation between the positions.

Good luck, Buddy.

James(Jay)M.

Hi Buddy - just thought I'd add a little here, not that I need to put much because James has given you some good advice! However, everyone seems to feel that that 'oomph' or thud in your chest is the holy grail of subwoofer output when this is in fact quite a rare occurence in a domestic home cinema set-up. So much is interdependent on various factors including room acoustics, placement, the sub itself and its' partnering equipment. James is right that you should experiment with positioning, although because of what is known as the 'Haas' effect you should never place the sub behind the listening position as this will be extremely fatiguing to listen to. Just be aware that even the very best subs costing upwards of $4,000 won't always produce that thump in your chest, the amount of air movement that this requires is phenomenal and is very dependant on your room, it may, however, make your windows bulge!!! Human hearing tapers off somewhere around 5 - 15Hz so any sub that goes below this will produce very, very deep bass. Subs are the most difficult piece of equipment to intergrate into a sytem and I wish you luck...

I asked a similar question in another topic and got no responses, but am reading here to fill the gaps.

Sounds like my search for a subwoofer will be a tricky one. But, I am about ready to look and buy now finally. I just need to wait for the next payday thingie we all know and love to arrive. Otherwise I'd be stealing the sub, and that's just not right.

You guys mentioned an 8" sub, does this really provide the bass one might want or need for a home system? My only true experience in this arena is car based subs, and thats a whole different kind of situation. It just seems like for a home system, the sub would need to be capable of providing bass that fills in where the regualr speakers dont, as well as being able to fill the room and more importantly reach the listeners.

I've been eyeballing the 10 and 12"s. The only thing I don't know is where I am going to place it. Right now I am leaning towards putting it behind the sofa, since my living room is pretty crowded and thats the only place I have the room. But the advantage would be the listener will be right there by it. I guess I am worried that the bass has not the time to mature before it reaches the listener from this location. Otherwise, my walls and their surfaces are awful for bass of anykind, so I end up doing some strange placement to get good sound.

Any thoughts?

r

Hello Again!

Please do not place your sub behind the listening position as this is the very worst place to put it. Bass outputs long standing waves which have been scientifically proven to cause fatigue by what is known as the 'Haas' effect when placed behind the listener. The size of the driver is not necessarily the most important pasrt of the sub, there are other factors to take into account as well. Ensure that you get an active model (ie its' own amp) that can output a minimum of 100watts. The size is not all important although the bigger the better. I have previously recommended REL on this forum and would do so again, if you can get hold of one. It is difficult to recommend a sub without knowing what other equipment you have. Ensure that you get a sub where you can alter the crossover and also has coarse and fine controls whereby you can then 'tune' the bass - this will help overcome any acoustic problems prevalent within your listening environment. For further info. visit www.rel.net Hope that helps.

Justin

Thank you all for your valuable input. I have tried my subwoofer in various parts of my living room, but I think I get the best bass response where I have it now, which is on the right side of the entertainment center next to the wall, not in a corner. I still would like to get a new subwoofer, at least just to get rid of the distortion that I hear with my current sub. Thank you for clearin up the "Oomph" or "thud in your chest" topic of subwoofers. With my current setup and the dimensions of my living room, I guess I won't be able to fully enjoy those pounding effects, but at least I will be able to hear and, hopefully feel, cleaner and deeper bass with no distortion or interference. Here in Omaha, Nebraska, where I live, the only two brands I have seen are the Infinity and JBL models. I always heard that the Infinity models are supposed to be better, so I think that is what I will end up going with. And, I can always return it if I'm not satisfied. Again, thank you all for your help.

Oh to have this sub mess over...

So, I take it I shouldn't place the sub behind the listener. Maybe that is why car subs always have a wierd delay effect (the Luke Haas effect, lol).

There are a few places in my living room I could place the sub... Let me give my basic info,

med/low pile carpet in living room... approx 12'x15' dimensions. walls are covered with spackle (old house) that causes problems with reflection on highs alot. My front speakers are 12" woofer Pioneers (Don't laugh, they are the next in line for replacement.) Center is a smaller Inifinity, rears are SPL Monitors (DO they make these anymore?). Front and rear minus Center channel are all full range. Current arrangement, sofa facing tv from long end of room. Reciever, Sony STR-DE935. The general accoustics of the room tend to be muddy, partly due to the wall spackle. BUt, the poor insulation in the walls also reduces the bass output if not placed just so.

r

flow@mac.com

Just curious, what is the effect of the 180 Degree phase switch on most powered subwoofers? I know that bass is unidirectional, so isn't this kind of a wierd item to put on the sub... or does it account for variances the bass from your existing speakers that might be out of phase... and why would they be out of phase?

r

flow@mac.com

[Chromy]

Just to clear up some confusion by Justins comment

Human hearing tapers off somewhere around 5 - 15Hz so any sub that goes below this will produce very, very deep bass.

from the http://www.rel.net website

... entry-level model extends down to well below audibility. This means below 25 Hertz. In fact it extends down to below 20 Hertz.

Human hearing is generally accepted to range from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz. I have found that most people's hearing, including my own, start to taper off slightly within these boundaries (probably about 25 - 17,000.)

Below about 19 Hz I can't hear anything. Sound is just a tactile sensation. If you have a sub that can play this low and reasonably loud, you should be able to feel something.

Chromy

[Chromy]

And yes, the purpose of a phase switch or dial (in some more expensive setups) is to align the bass waves coming from your sub with the ones coming from your other speakers that are capable of reproducing lower frequencies.

Chromy

Ok, we are getting good info here for Subs. How about some info on cabling. Should I use the expensive shielded overpriced stuff, or will a decent RCA cable do the trick just the same.

I was wondering if home subs have the same low-whine noise that some car subs do... I know its engine noise, etc. bleeding into the signal... but does this occur with home subs too?

r



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robn kester
flow@mac.com
type 11? i keep typing 11 and nothing happens!

<>

I was looking at the BU120 as well. I saw it on Buy.com for $299, within my budget and looks decent... I havent been able to find any good reviews of this model however. Wonder how it compares to similarly equiped models.

r

[Chromy]

First of all... Type 11 ERROR

All of those times you are typing 11 you are just making your system more unstable

Well, you can sometimes get a hum in your home audio system. This is caused by a ground loop. Most of the time it is not a problem so let's deal with it when it happens

Chromy

I was just wondering what do you set your subwoofer to (Phase switch?) if the other speakers produce no bass at all?

[Chromy]

Your other speakers should and probably will produce some overlapping bass. I'm not talking about just low bass but mid-bass as well.

Listen for the tightness and speed of the sound. If the bass sounds sloppy or late, flip the switch. When I get my sub in phase I always use another warm body. Get someone to flick that switch for you and leave it in the position that sounds best.

Chromy

• First off a single subwoofer used in a dolby digital system is for low frequency effects and receives all the low frequencies for all five channels (ie: if there is an explosion localized in the right surround channel the sub will produce the lows, of course )
• As far as the phase switch goes...try both settings, use the one that sounds best to you!
• The size of the driver isn't as important as it's excersion (I've heard 8" drivers that move as much air as 12" ones).
• I have a Boston Acoustics subwoofer (I forget the model #, and I'm not getting up to go look) with a 10" high excersion driver, 100 watt amp and 24db/oct (high & low pass) crossover. I'm very happy with it. but I'm moving it to my other system and building a custom subwoofer for my home theater (using a NHT 1259 12" with over an inch of excersion)
  Anywho...
• The REL Acoustics subwoofers are great, but expensive (ie: Q100E $1000, Strata II $1200).
• I wouldn't place the subwoofer behind the listening area, or close to it.
• The Hsu Research TN1225HO is quite good and not to expensive...around $350 (w/250w amp).
  Well I've rambled on enough for now...
  Good Luck and happy listening.

[This message has been edited by everj (edited 02-13-2000).]

Just when I think I've got this whole Sub thing figured out someone else chimes in with more info I have to digest.

The easiest thing would just be to buy something and see how I like it...

Eitherway, I _will_ have it ordered (or in my hands) by this weekend. Or else.

r

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robn kester
flow@mac.com
type 11? i keep typing 11 and nothing happens!

I thought I ought to chip in one final time to explain what the phase switch on a subwoofer actually does - we all know that sound waves emanating from a speaker are caused by an electrical impulse being transmitted to a speaker cone by way of magnets and so on - this then moves the cone in or out so producing a sound. The phase reversal switch on a sub alters the movement of the subwoofer's cone. When the sub is 'in-phase' the cone will move out and follow the pattern generated by your main speakers, when the sub is 'out of phase' the cone will move in instead of out. This can be a useful way of treating bass that has become flabby or uncontrolled giving a tighter more defined bass with less coloration. It is for treating defficiencies in room acoustics rather than the signal or sub itself. This is a hugely oversimplified explanation but should give you some idea of what it actually does.

[Chromy]

Yep, a 180 degree phase "switch" will have the same effect as flipping positive and negative signals going into the sub. Thus, movement of the cone is inversed.

An interesting experiment to run is to take two identical subs, face them towards each other, set them out of phase with each other and have them go at it It's amazing to watch two drivers try so hard to make so little sound

The way that I calibrate my speakers is flip the polarity of my main speakers by switching the + and - leads of one of the main speakers. Then I use the balance control (with the sub playing) to fade back and forth between regular and out of phase main speaker. If the bass sounds better with the regular main just leave the sub switch alone and hook up your other speaker again. If it sounds better with your speaker that you have wired out of phase than flip the switch on your sub and then switch that speaker back to match your other main.

Let us know what happens when you get your sub

Chromy

How's the Sub search coming along Buddy?

Myself, I am heading off to the store to pick one up today. I wanted to order it online, but the models I had chosen were all backordered or not available. So, I will goto the local shops and look for the ones I am interested in. Will let yall know how it turns out.

r

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robn kester
flow@mac.com
type 11? i keep typing 11 and nothing happens!

Welpers, my Sub search is over. ::and there was much rejoincing::

I am now the proud owner of an Infinity BU120 Subwoofer. I had to visit quite a few shops around town to find this model at the right price. It was a tough choice, and the JBL model did have some weight, but the Infinity won out.

So how's it sound you ask... Well, to be honest I've only played with it for a short bit. I started with it placed next to my cabinet, which was OK, but the sound was definately needing some tweaking. So, I moved it where they suggested in the "manual" - directly behind your right front speaker. After moving it there, the bass increased quite a bit, due to the nearby walls.

I tested it with several DVDs, including The Mummy. (My Matrix DVD is at a friends, wahh!) I also tried the radio, a CD, the Music Channels on my dish, and some HBO and Starz stuff. I was very pleased with the sound I got, even without the tweaking it needs. This Sub really can kick out some bass... but it's the underlying full sound it provides that really makes it wonderful.

I'll let you know how it goes as I get it in place and tweaked out.

Hope your search is coming along Buddy.

r

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robn kester
flow@mac.com
type 11? i keep typing 11 and nothing happens!

Thought I might offer another nugget of advice - and please don't call me a crank as what I'm about to suggest might sound a little 'oof the wall'!! If you have a downward firing sub, on spikes, then it can help enormously if you place it on a concrete paving slab. You know the kind? You can get them from most DIY shops for paving your garden etc. Get a nice square one that your sub can fit on and place it underneath - make sure the whole sub sits on it and adjust the spikes so that it doesn't rock. If your sub is firing downwards into a carpet then placing this under it will add greater precision and slam - helping with that thud in your chest! It's quick, easy and best of all cheap and I promise you it works! I use them under both my subs - so if your having a few problems or fancy a tighter more controlled bass response - please give it a go and let me know what you think...

Robn, my sub search is going well, I have done a lot of looking around and have made a decision. I have most definitely decided on the Infinity BU-120. Thanks to your positive review and the many other positive reviews I have read about this sub, this is definitely the sub I plan on getting. Compared to my current crappy Aiwa 50 watt TS-W45 powered subwoofer, this new sub will prove to be a huge improvement that sounds excellent. Thanks!

Buddy,

There is no reason you can't utilize both the new and old sub when you purchase it. I'd think the smaller sub would be excellently suited for catching those midbass freqs that get lost in the translation. Maybe they make some sort of highpass inline RCA filter that can remove the parts the other new sub will be handling. Just a thought.

I am definately pleased with my BU120, but I cannot give a full-fledged "review" of it until I've integrated into my system. I can however say that I was more than pleased last night when I installed it.

I think the part I found most interesting was something I had discovered when I put subs into my car many ages ago. You don't really realize how much low-bass is in a voice, someone's heart beating, and those sorts of things until you have them amplified and in your face.

Tonight I plan on tweaking some more on placement.

On a sad note, my home theatre is almost complete according to my master plan. Now I only need to replace my front speakers and I will have to find a new project to blow my paycheck on.

::sniffle::

r


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robn kester
flow@mac.com
type 11? i keep typing 11 and nothing happens!

<>

Justin, you may think some might call you a crank but believe it or not I think your idea is very "sound". The concept makes sense, as the bass freqs will have a place to collide instead of being partially absorbed into the carpet.

My downward firing sub is sitting on lowpile carpet with padding underneath, so I am sure it will benefit from this. If not, I can use the stone I get elsewhere in my lawn. Should I use the included sticky pads on the "spikes"? I would assume since it will be sitting on a hard surface.

Thanks for mentioning it, I am going to have to try it myself.

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robn kester
flow@mac.com
type 11? i keep typing 11 and nothing happens!

Is the BU-120 a downfiring sub?

Originally posted by Robn Kester:
Buddy,

There is no reason you can't utilize both the new and old sub when you purchase it. I'd think the smaller sub would be excellently suited for catching those midbass freqs that get lost in the translation.

• First off...if I remember correctly the Awia is a bandpass subwoofer. The Infinity BU-120 is a bass reflex enclosure with down-firing driver.
  
• Second...there shouldn't be any loss of missbass freqs if everything is set up correctly.
  
• Third...I wouldn't recommend mixing a bandpass with a bass reflex or acoustic suspension, basicaly it isn't wise to mix and match enclosure types that are producing the same low frequencies (or even some of the same low frequencies).

Proper placement and integration (crossover settings, etc...) of the subwoofer (which ever you plan to buy) would make it unnecessary to use two different subwoofers.




[This message has been edited by everj (edited 02-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by everj (edited 02-16-2000).]