DVD Players with non-anamorphic scaling

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-30-2003, 06:34 PM

I know that the Panasonic RP91 offers scaling of non-anamorphic material. This would allow me to watch non-anamorphic widescreen dvds (both 4:3 OAR and letterboxed widescreen) on my Mitsubishi widescreen tv in STANDARD mode. This sounds great. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any other players besides this one that offer this function. I have an opportunity to get the RP91 for around $375, but I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me if there's other options.

Thanks.

tomdkat · 01-30-2003, 06:51 PM

The Toshiba SD-3800 and SD-4800 offer a Zoom function that can be used to achieve a similar effect, but that's not the same as actual _scaling_.

Get the RP91... it should "mate" very well with your Mits....

Peace.....

Rogue · 01-30-2003, 08:13 PM

I also think you should go with the RP91. I got one off of Ebay and am pleased with it. I know of no other progressive scan player that does the same sort of scaling this one does. If you do get it, make sure you upgrade it to the lastest firmware. That will reduce combing with problem DVDs significantly (I rarely, if ever, notice a comb).

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-30-2003, 09:33 PM

I don't really want to spend close to $400 for the RP91 when I'm already very happy with the video performance of my Sony DVP-NS715P. However, I have a good number of non-anamorphic widescreen and older 1.37:1 DVDs that I still like to watch. The expand mode on my TV is nice, but the problem with that is that it crops the incoming signal which often results in chopped up subtitles. Subtitles are very important to me so I want a player that can do the cropping for me that will still display the subtitles properly.

Thanks for the info on the Toshibas, tomdkat. I'm gonna check out the SD-4800. I can get that locally for under $200. That's more to my liking than spending close to $400. This doesn't need to be my primary player. I just want something that will better display non-anamorphic widescreen material with subtitles intact. If I'm not happy with the Toshiba I might check out the Panasonic.

tomdkat · 01-30-2003, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
The expand mode on my TV is nice, but the problem with that is that it crops the incoming signal which often results in chopped up subtitles. Subtitles are very important to me so I want a player that can do the cropping for me that will still display the subtitles properly.

I'm not sure the "Zoom" mode on the Toshibaa will help you here much.. but I'm not sure....

Keep in mind the Toshiba's Zoom is NOT the same as scaling performed by the RP91.

If subtitles are _that_ important to you, get the RP91 or wait to see what other players come out that scale, like the RP91 does.

Another alternative is to get your set ISF calibrated and see if they can reduce the amount of overscan your TV currently has. You can look at the overscan video pattern on Avia to see how much overscan your TV does now. Reducing overscan on your TV might prove to be the _best_ overall solution.

BEFORE spending money on another DVD player, I would contact an ISF tech in your area and see how much he would want for a calibration of your set and see if overscan adjustment would be included in that price. If you can get that for around $400, then you could KEEP your Sony as your sole and primary DVD player, be able to use your TV's video modes for non-anamorphic material, and have a professionally calibrated TV to boot!

By the way, can you name one of the DVDs that are widescreen that give you subtitle grief? If by change I own that DVD (like The Abyss) I can see what happens to the subtitles on my Toshiba 57HX81.

Peace....

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-30-2003, 10:06 PM

From what I've read on Toshiba's website it looks like the SD-4800 will do what I'm looking for it to do. I'll check it out and return it if I'm not happy with the performance.

Using my Avia disc I've determined that the overscan is about 5% all the way around my TV. Overscan isn't the problem with subtitles when watching a non-anamorphic widescreen disc in EXPAND mode on my TV. The problem is that the subtitles are sometimes authored on the disc to appear below the image frame on a letterboxed DVD. Same problem with my City of Lost Children laserdisc. The subtitles are below the image and if I use the EXPAND mode on my TV, they get cut off. So basically you would see it on any disc where the subtitles are authored to appear below the image. I want the DVD player to be able to do the cropping and still display the subtitles.

I don't think I want to spend the dough on an ISF calibration right now. I just had a technician from Tweeter (where I bought the TV) out to my house on Monday for a service call. He tweaked the TV pretty good and I think it looks fabulous right now. I've got a five-year extended warranty from Tweeter and they tell me I can call them pretty much any time in that period if I'm not happy how with it looks. They'll be coming to clean and service my TV once a year under warranty.

Looking at your collection, tomdkat, one DVD that I know I have problems with subtitles when I expand it on my TV is Rounders. The subtitles on Rounders are authored to appear completely below the image. Check that disc and see what happens on your Toshiba TV.

I'm gonna go out now and get the SD-4800. It can't hurt to check it out. If I don't like what it does for me, I can take it back. No worries there.

tomdkat · 01-30-2003, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
Using my Avia disc I've determined that the overscan is about 5% all the way around my TV. Overscan isn't the problem with subtitles when watching a non-anamorphic widescreen disc in EXPAND mode on my TV. The problem is that the subtitles are sometimes authored on the disc to appear below the image frame on a letterboxed DVD. Same problem with my City of Lost Children laserdisc. The subtitles are below the image and if I use the EXPAND mode on my TV, they get cut off. So basically you would see it on any disc where the subtitles are authored to appear below the image. I want the DVD player to be able to do the cropping and still display the subtitles.

I DO understand your problem, which is precisely why I mentioned overscan. If you reduced the overscan percentage,to say 0%, then when you used your video expand mode, the "Zoom" your TV does might not crop ANY of the subtitles at all, since you would not be Zooming the picture that is already overscanned by 5%. Do you see what I'm saying.....

Quote:

I don't think I want to spend the dough on an ISF calibration right now. I just had a technician from Tweeter (where I bought the TV) out to my house on Monday for a service call. He tweaked the TV pretty good and I think it looks fabulous right now. I've got a five-year extended warranty from Tweeter and they tell me I can call them pretty much any time in that period if I'm not happy how with it looks. They'll be coming to clean and service my TV once a year under warranty.

That's cool, but this is NOT the same as ISF calibration, which would probably result in as close to absolute maximum performance from your set that you could expect. I'm not knocking the Tweeter tech, but unless you go with an ISF tech you're not necessarly getting "the best".

Quote:

Looking at your collection, tomdkat, one DVD that I know I have problems with subtitles when I expand it on my TV is Rounders. The subtitles on Rounders are authored to appear completely below the image. Check that disc and see what happens on your Toshiba TV.

Thanks for the title. I'll check it out tonight...

Quote:

I'm gonna go out now and get the SD-4800. It can't hurt to check it out. If I don't like what it does for me, I can take it back. No worries there.

Of course, you must do what you feel is best and I wish you luck!

Peace....

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-31-2003, 12:33 AM

I picked up the Toshiba SD-4800 and have played around with it a little bit. My initial impression is that I'm very impressed. Nice little machine.

The zoom function does exactly what I was hoping for and then some. I put in Rounders and hit the zoom button and it displays it the way it should plus the subtitles are in the right place. Yay! I put in my Avia disc and went to the overscan tests. It showed the normal 5% overscan all the way around. I hit the "-" zoom button twice and it drops the overscan to less than 1% all the way around. Way cool! No more overscan issues.

Another cool function is that the player is capable of decoding closed captions internally. You may remember I had a question last fall about closed captions and progressive scan televisions. I found out that TVs cannot decode closed captions from a progressive signal, only interlaced. I put Goldmember (which has closed captions, but no subtitles) in the player and told it to decode the captions for me. The SD-4800 displayed the captions as part of the video signal. The TV doesn't need to decode the captions. Very cool!

Now I just need to watch a whole movie and decide whether I like the video performance of this player. My initial reaction is that I can't see any difference between it and my Sony, but only watching it for an extended period will really tell me how good the video is.

Quote:

I DO understand your problem, which is precisely why I mentioned overscan. If you reduced the overscan percentage,to say 0%, then when you used your video expand mode, the "Zoom" your TV does might not crop ANY of the subtitles at all, since you would not be Zooming the picture that is already overscanned by 5%. Do you see what I'm saying.....

I see what you're saying, tomdkat, about this, but what I'm saying is that on a title like Rounders, part of the subtitles are authored below the actual film image. The video sent from the player to the TV has the subtitle near the bottom of the 4:3 frame. When your TV crops the top and bottom to make the letterboxed image fill your screen, it WILL lose some of the subtitles.

Quote:

That's cool, but this is NOT the same as ISF calibration, which would probably result in as close to absolute maximum performance from your set that you could expect. I'm not knocking the Tweeter tech, but unless you go with an ISF tech you're not necessarly getting "the best".

Maybe I'll get an ISF calibration down the road, but at this point I'm quite happy with the performance of my TV. I have it tweaked pretty well and don't feel the need to spend more to make it look better. I think it's pretty close to as good as it's getting right now. I may be wrong, but I'm happy with what I've got right now so no reason to do any more about it.

tomdkat · 01-31-2003, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
I see what you're saying, tomdkat, about this, but what I'm saying is that on a title like Rounders, part of the subtitles are authored below the actual film image. The video sent from the player to the TV has the subtitle near the bottom of the 4:3 frame. When your TV crops the top and bottom to make the letterboxed image fill your screen, it WILL lose some of the subtitles.

I'm glad to hear the SD-4800 is working out so well for you!

Here's something for you to check out; put on Rounders in the SD-4800, hit the "Zoom -" button twice, like you did before when Avia showed you effectively negated the TVs overscan by Zooming away, and see how the sub-titles look (I know they will be completely visible) as compared to what you're currently seeing with your Sony. Since you are Zooming AWAY, the Toshiba should not have to adjust the subtitles as if you were zooming TOWARD you. If the subtitles appear the SAME as when the Toshiba Zooms toward you (the way you want it) then yo've proved that adjusting your TVs overscan setting would have "solved" your problem as your TV's "Zoom" would not be in addition to the 5% overscan, since (after ISF calibration) you overscan could have been 0. You went the OTHER way and can use the DVD player to compensate for the TVs overscan setting by Zooming the picture AWAY from you.....

The upside (and bottom line) is you've found an affordable solution to your immediate problem, even though you're not getting the benefits of ISF calibration, which can always be done later on.

Be sure to let us know if you end up keeping BOTH players or "replacing" the Sony with the Toshiba.

Peace.....

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-31-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tomdkat
I'm glad to hear the SD-4800 is working out so well for you! Here's something for you to check out; put on Rounders in the SD-4800, hit the "Zoom -" button twice, like you did before when Avia showed you effectively negated the TVs overscan by Zooming away, and see how the sub-titles look (I know they will be completely visible) as compared to what you're currently seeing with your Sony. Since you are Zooming AWAY, the Toshiba should not have to adjust the subtitles as if you were zooming TOWARD you. If the subtitles appear the SAME as when the Toshiba Zooms toward you (the way you want it) then yo've proved that adjusting your TVs overscan setting would have "solved" your problem as your TV's "Zoom" would not be in addition to the 5% overscan, since (after ISF calibration) you overscan could have been 0. You went the OTHER way and can use the DVD player to compensate for the TVs overscan setting by Zooming the picture AWAY from you.....

The cool thing about the SD-4800 is that it adjusts a letterboxed 4:3 movie to output a 16:9 signal and in that process moves the subtitles to the appropriate spot on the 16:9 signal. The problem with the Sony is that it outputs a letterboxed 4:3 signal as a 4:3 video signal. It doesn't matter how much overscan my TV has; if the subtitles are authored below the 1.85:1 portion of the 4:3 letterbox, the EXPAND mode on my TV will crop at least a portion of them.

I threw various DVDs in the SD-4800 and was pleased with the results. By using the "- zoom" button on the remote I was actually able to get American Beauty to display with an exact ratio of 2.35:1 (yes, I measured with a tape measure and did the math). I watched North by Northwest (incredible video quality BTW) in its entirety and was able to get it to display properly in its native 1.85:1 ratio with tiny (I mean really small) black bars at the top and bottom of my 16:9 tv.

I still need to watch more on the SD-4800, but I'm pleased with it thus far. It definitely has some features I wish the Sony had such as the zoom function and closed caption decoder. I have many DVDs from both MGM and Artisan that have no English subtitles, but do have closed captions. I like to read along with a movie and the only way to get closed captions to appear with my Sony is to turn the progressive signal off and watch it in interlaced mode.

Not that I would ever need to use it now, but the SD-4800 can switch between interlaced and progressive with the touch of a button on the remote. The Sony has to be changed by stopping the player and going into the setup menu on the player.

All of these features have me leaning toward making the Toshiba my everyday player. Unless I find that the Toshiba isn't as nice as the Sony for video (haven't determined that yet), I'll probably end up keeping the Toshiba and getting rid of the Sony (which I still think is a darn good player). I just don't think I need to have three DVD players hooked up to my system (my LD player, a Pioneer DVL-700 also plays DVDs, but I rarely use it for that).

Thanks for the input, tomdkat. You've been a big help as always.

tomdkat · 01-31-2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
It doesn't matter how much overscan my TV has; if the subtitles are authored below the 1.85:1 portion of the 4:3 letterbox, the EXPAND mode on my TV will crop at least a portion of them.

I think this is where we disagree because the EXPAND mode on your TV is "Zooming" an already Zoomed picture. Like a "double Zoom". If you put the Toshiba in interlaced mode and did the double negative Zoom "thing" (to use the technical term, of course) that would negate the TV's Zoom (overscan) and the EXPAND mode would be ONE Zoom, instead of two. Do you know how the Zoom functions differ between the progressive and interlaced outputs of the Toshiba?

Quote:

It definitely has some features I wish the Sony had such as the zoom function and closed caption decoder. I have many DVDs from both MGM and Artisan that have no English subtitles, but do have closed captions. I like to read along with a movie and the only way to get closed captions to appear with my Sony is to turn the progressive signal off and watch it in interlaced mode.

Not that I would ever need to use it now, but the SD-4800 can switch between interlaced and progressive with the touch of a button on the remote. The Sony has to be changed by stopping the player and going into the setup menu on the player.

The features you mention ARE very cool features and as I also have a Sony DVP-NS715P I know exactly what you mean when you describe what's involved with operating it.

My Pioneer DV-656a has a cool feature in that it _can_l automagically output an interlaced signal when non-anamorphic material is detected and a progressive signal if anamorphic material is detected. This helps me determine if any given DVD is anamorphic or not, regardless of the packaging. Of course, I can force the player into interlaced mode only or progressive mode only. The "auto progressive" alleviates me from having to change video processing modes AT ALL, unless I want to see how much better my player's de-interlacer is than my TVs de-interlacer.

Quote:

All of these features have me leaning toward making the Toshiba my everyday player. Unless I find that the Toshiba isn't as nice as the Sony for video (haven't determined that yet), I'll probably end up keeping the Toshiba and getting rid of the Sony (which I still think is a darn good player).

One feature I DO like about the Sony is the "last stop" memory across power-offs and DVD changes. Does the Toshiba have this capability?

Quote:

Thanks for the input, tomdkat. You've been a big help as always.

I'm just glad that you were able to get your problem solved quickly and without spending a TON of money!

Peace.....

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-31-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tomdkat
I think this is where we disagree because the EXPAND mode on your TV is "Zooming" an already Zoomed picture. Like a "double Zoom". If you put the Toshiba in interlaced mode and did the double negative Zoom "thing" (to use the technical term, of course) that would negate the TV's Zoom (overscan) and the EXPAND mode would be ONE Zoom, instead of two.

Using my TV's expand mode does zoom an already zoomed picture, but that's not the problem. What I'm saying is that if the subtitles are near the bottom of a 4:3 image, when you crop that image (even with no overscan), you're going to lose some of the subtitles. To demonstrate I've captured a frame from Rounders using PowerDVD (with zero overscan on my computer) and cropped it to a 16:9 ratio.

Here is the initial image in the native 4:3 ratio as present on the DVD:

You can see that the subtitles are located below the image (not on the image as you see on many DVDs). Now see what happens when I crop this capture to a 16:9 ratio:

You see that you lose a portion of the subtitle track even with an image that has ZERO overscan.

This is what's nice about the SD-4800. It readjusts the subtitles after it zooms the picture. The subtitles show up just fine.

Quote:

My Pioneer DV-656a has a cool feature in that it _can_l automagically output an interlaced signal when non-anamorphic material is detected and a progressive signal if anamorphic material is detected. This helps me determine if any given DVD is anamorphic or not, regardless of the packaging. Of course, I can force the player into interlaced mode only or progressive mode only. The "auto progressive" alleviates me from having to change video processing modes AT ALL, unless I want to see how much better my player's de-interlacer is than my TVs de-interlacer.

The Toshiba SD-4800 automatically recognizes whether it's 16:9 or 4:3 material. 16:9 material automatically fills my 16:9 screen. You have the option on 4:3 material of having it fill a 16:9 screen by stretching or having it display it correctly by adding black bars on the side. I like this because black bars on the sides are less distracting than the gray bars my TV uses to display 4:3. This also lets me leave the TV set on STANDARD mode at all times. No need to change the display settings on the TV.

Quote:

One feature I DO like about the Sony is the "last stop" memory across power-offs and DVD changes. Does the Toshiba have this capability?

That's one feature the SD-4800 does not have. It's a nice feature, but it's something I can live without considering the other features it does have. The SD-4800 does do auto-resume if you turn the player off, but will not do it after you've removed the disc like the Sony does.

tomdkat · 01-31-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
To demonstrate I've captured a frame from Rounders using PowerDVD (with zero overscan on my computer) and cropped it to a 16:9 ratio.

Thanks for the screen shots. One thing I find that's VERY interesting is in the 16:9 "cropped" picture. I DO see where the subtitles are chopped, but the right and left sides of the image look EXACTLY like the 4:3 image above it. This looks to me like only the top and bottom was cropped which is different than the entire image being zoomed in. When I watch 4:3 2.35:1 material on my Toshiba 57HX81 in "Full" mode, the image is stretched horizontally and the letterbox bars are "huge". If I switch to the "TheaterWide 2" video mode, the letterbox bars look the same as if I was watching an anamorphic DVD, but the sides are also cropped. I'm not sure how PowerDVD did the cropping you illustrated and how that differs from how your TVs video modes work.

Quote:

The Toshiba SD-4800 automatically recognizes whether it's 16:9 or 4:3 material. 16:9 material automatically fills my 16:9 screen. You have the option on 4:3 material of having it fill a 16:9 screen by stretching or having it display it correctly by adding black bars on the side. I like this because black bars on the sides are less distracting than the gray bars my TV uses to display 4:3.

This is a VERY cool feature, indeed...

[quote]This also lets me leave the TV set on STANDARD mode at all times. No need to change the display settings on the TV.Is "Standard" the same as "Full" on your TV or is that a separate video mode? (I'm not ery familiar with Mits TVs).

Quote:

That's one feature the SD-4800 does not have. It's a nice feature, but it's something I can live without considering the other features it does have. The SD-4800 does do auto-resume if you turn the player off, but will not do it after you've removed the disc like the Sony does.

It DOES sound like the video features of the Toshiba far outweigh the usability feature of the Sony so it sounds like the Toshiba is a better player for you. If you can't really tell which video output you like the best yet, that implies they are VERY close (I think you might have even stated that earlier) in video performance, thus making the Toshiba the "winner"....

Of course, I'm NOT making your decision for you but simply based on what you've described about the SD-4800 so far, it sounds like an obvious choice for you. Now I'm wondering why other SD-4800 owners haven't discussed these video features of this player earlier.

Thanks for the great status reports!

Peace.....

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-31-2003, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tomdkat
Thanks for the screen shots. One thing I find that's VERY interesting is in the 16:9 "cropped" picture. I DO see where the subtitles are chopped, but the right and left sides of the image look EXACTLY like the 4:3 image above it. This looks to me like only the top and bottom was cropped which is different than the entire image being zoomed in. When I watch 4:3 2.35:1 material on my Toshiba 57HX81 in "Full" mode, the image is stretched horizontally and the letterbox bars are "huge". If I switch to the "TheaterWide 2" video mode, the letterbox bars look the same as if I was watching an anamorphic DVD, but the sides are also cropped. I'm not sure how PowerDVD did the cropping you illustrated and how that differs from how your TVs video modes work.

I did the capture in PowerDVD and then did the cropping myself in Photo Editor. This is the way that my TV works in EXPAND mode. The mode is intended for letterboxed 4:3 video. It simply crops off the top and bottom and expands what's left to fill the whole 16:9 screen. It is indeed different from zooming in on the entire image. Perhaps this is where we were confusing each other.

I do like the EXPAND mode on my TV because you don't lose any of the picture on either the sides or the bottom (outside of 5% overscanned) on letterboxed 4:3 material. This is great for my letterboxed laserdiscs except for City of Lost Children because that chops off the English subtitles (I don't speak French so I need them).

Quote:

It DOES sound like the video features of the Toshiba far outweigh the usability feature of the Sony so it sounds like the Toshiba is a better player for you. If you can't really tell which video output you like the best yet, that implies they are VERY close (I think you might have even stated that earlier) in video performance, thus making the Toshiba the "winner"....

I'm definitely leaning towards keeping the Toshiba. I'll probably hold onto the Sony for awhile, but if I determine that the Toshiba's video performance is up to snuff, I'll eventually try to find someone who wants the Sony.

Quote:

Of course, I'm NOT making your decision for you but simply based on what you've described about the SD-4800 so far, it sounds like an obvious choice for you. Now I'm wondering why other SD-4800 owners haven't discussed these video features of this player earlier.

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised that I hadn't heard more about this player before yesterday. It's comparably priced to the Sony and has some great features for widescreen TVs. I'm impressed with it so far.

I've not mentioned yet that the SD-4800 also supports DVD-Audio, which is not important to me at all, but nice to have nevertheless. And the SD-4800 is also black and matches my other components, something the Sony does not (again not a big deal, but nice nevertheless).

Quote:

Thanks for the great status reports!

Thanks for reading them. Good discussion we've got going on here. This is what these forums should be for.

tomdkat · 01-31-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
This is the way that my TV works in EXPAND mode. The mode is intended for letterboxed 4:3 video. It simply crops off the top and bottom and expands what's left to fill the whole 16:9 screen. It is indeed different from zooming in on the entire image. Perhaps this is where we were confusing each other.

This is a VERY interesting point... how any given TV does it's "manipulation" of 4:3 material. I wonder how much differently various 16:9 TVs do this.

Quote:

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised that I hadn't heard more about this player before yesterday. It's comparably priced to the Sony and has some great features for widescreen TVs. I'm impressed with it so far.

The funny thing is I did NOT know ANY of what you describe about what the SD-4800 can do until you posted it! I had heard the SD-3800 and the SD-4800 do Zooming, but that was about it. From what I've also read, the SD-3800 and the SD-4800 are VERY close, if not identical, in terms of video processing components and you can see how well the SD-3800 did in the recent Secrets DVD player shootout.

I think I'll pick up a Sd-3800 or a SD-4800 and check it out, like I'm doing with the Sony DVP-NS715P.

Quote:

I've not mentioned yet that the SD-4800 also supports DVD-Audio, which is not important to me at all, but nice to have nevertheless.

My Pioneer DV-656a does as well, even though I have yet to play a DVD-A disc...

Quote:

And the SD-4800 is also black and matches my other components, something the Sony does not (again not a big deal, but nice nevertheless).

Believe it or not, this is a BIG issue for many people. Fortunately, my Pioneer and Sony match (closely enough) my Toshiba 57HX81 so I have a mixture of black and silver/gray components....

Quote:

Thanks for reading them. Good discussion we've got going on here. This is what these forums should be for.

Yeah, this has been a great discussion....

Peace.....

tomdkat · 01-31-2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tomdkat
you can see how well the SD-3800 did in the recent Secrets DVD player shootout.

Ok, so my link didn't work very well.. you can get "close" to the results, though...

Peace.....

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-31-2003, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tomdkat
This is a VERY interesting point... how any given TV does it's "manipulation" of 4:3 material. I wonder how much differently various 16:9 TVs do this.

That's something I know very little about. I assumed most widescreen TVs had a similar mode to my Mitsubishi's Expand mode.

Quote:

I think I'll pick up a Sd-3800 or a SD-4800 and check it out, like I'm doing with the Sony DVP-NS715P.

My local Best Buy had the SD-4800 for $199.99 and the SD-3800 for $149.99. I chose the 4800 mainly because I expected it to be a better player and because it was black whereas the 3800 was silver. I really don't know what about the two players is different. I should look into that.

Quote:

My Pioneer DV-656a does as well, even though I have yet to play a DVD-A disc...

My Toshiba came with a DVD-Audio sampler disc with a whole bunch of tracks ranging from Dishwalla to Mannheim Steamroller. I threw it in the player to see what it was like, but haven't really "sampled" it yet.

Quote:

Believe it or not, this is a BIG issue for many people. Fortunately, my Pioneer and Sony match (closely enough) my Toshiba 57HX81 so I have a mixture of black and silver/gray components....

Color of component isn't a big deal to me, but if possible I prefer them all to be the same color. My TV, receiver, LD player, A/V rack and speakers are all black. My VCR is a dark gray. The Sony DVD player is silver so it kind of sticks out, but it's not worth getting upset over.

MurDiddlyUrdler · 01-31-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
My local Best Buy had the SD-4800 for $199.99 and the SD-3800 for $149.99. I chose the 4800 mainly because I expected it to be a better player and because it was black whereas the 3800 was silver. I really don't know what about the two players is different. I should look into that.

Looking at Toshiba's website, it looks like there's only two big differences between the 3800 and the 4800. The 4800 does DVD-Audio and has 6-channel outputs. That and they have different remotes and the 4800 is black while the 3800 is silver. They both seem like pretty good deals.

tomdkat · 01-31-2003, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
That's something I know very little about. I assumed most widescreen TVs had a similar mode to my Mitsubishi's Expand mode.

I think most widescreen TVs DO have video modes similar to your Mits' "EXPAND" mode. Since they have different names it's really difficult to know what the equivalent modes are on any given set. I have a total of 3 video modes I use:

Full for anamorphic material
TheaterWide 2 Zoom/Stretch mode for non-anamorphic 1.85:1 material (or wider)
TheaterWide 1 Stretch mode for non-anamorphic 1.33:1 - 1.78:1 (roughly) material
EDIT: TheaterWide 3 Zoom mode (forgot about this one..

)

I don't know how these video modes translate to video modes on your Mits. the "Normal" mode is standard 4:3 with grey bars on the sides and I RARELY use that mode...

Peace.....

MurDiddlyUrdler · 02-01-2003, 12:16 AM

My Mitsubishi has five video modes:

Standard - for anamorphic video
Expand - for non-anamorphic widescreen material. It crops the top and bottom.
Zoom - for 2.35:1 anamorphic video. It crops the sides to fill the screen. Eliminates the black bars on "scope" movies.
Stretched - stretches 4:3 video to fill the screen. Differs from Standard mode in that it does more stretching on the sides than the middle of the picture. You supposedly notice distortion less on this mode than just the straight stretch you would get in Standard mode.
Narrow - for proper display of 4:3 video. Gray bars appear on the sides. This video slowly shifts from right to left to eliminate "burn-in" of the gray bars on the sides.

tomdkat · 02-01-2003, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
My Mitsubishi has five video modes:

Standard - for anamorphic video
Expand - for non-anamorphic widescreen material. It crops the top and bottom.
Zoom - for 2.35:1 anamorphic video. It crops the sides to fill the screen. Eliminates the black bars on "scope" movies.
Stretched - stretches 4:3 video to fill the screen. Differs from Standard mode in that it does more stretching on the sides than the middle of the picture. You supposedly notice distortion less on this mode than just the straight stretch you would get in Standard mode.
Narrow - for proper display of 4:3 video. Gray bars appear on the sides. This video slowly shifts from right to left to eliminate "burn-in" of the gray bars on the sides.

Ok, so it looks liek this is the mapping between your Mits and my Toshiba 57HX81:

Mits Standard = Toshiba Full
Mits Zoom = Toshiba TheaterWide 3
Mits Expand = Toshiba TheaterWide 2
Mits Stretched = Toshiba TheaterWide 1
Mits Narrow = Toshiba Normal

Now according to the picture of TheaterWIde 2 in my Toshiba manual, basically edges of the image are cropped (due to Zooming) and nothing is stretched at all. I'll see if I can scan and post pics of the pictures of how the Toshiba video modes work here over the weekend (if I have time).

Peace......

01-30-2003, 06:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
MurDiddlyUrdler Banned Join Date: Aug 2002	DVD Players with non-anamorphic scaling I know that the Panasonic RP91 offers scaling of non-anamorphic material. This would allow me to watch non-anamorphic widescreen dvds (both 4:3 OAR and letterboxed widescreen) on my Mitsubishi widescreen tv in STANDARD mode. This sounds great. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any other players besides this one that offer this function. I have an opportunity to get the RP91 for around $375, but I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me if there's other options. Thanks.

01-30-2003, 06:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
tomdkat Official Forum Warmonger "Dial Tone" Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hayward, CA, USA	The Toshiba SD-3800 and SD-4800 offer a Zoom function that can be used to achieve a similar effect, but that's not the same as actual _scaling_. Get the RP91... it should "mate" very well with your Mits.... Peace..... __________________ My DVD Aficionado List "At last we shall reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we shall have revenge!"

01-30-2003, 08:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rogue Actor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Miami,FL USA	I also think you should go with the RP91. I got one off of Ebay and am pleased with it. I know of no other progressive scan player that does the same sort of scaling this one does. If you do get it, make sure you upgrade it to the lastest firmware. That will reduce combing with problem DVDs significantly (I rarely, if ever, notice a comb). __________________ All that is gold does not glitter Not all those who wander are lost...

01-30-2003, 09:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
MurDiddlyUrdler Banned Join Date: Aug 2002	I don't really want to spend close to $400 for the RP91 when I'm already very happy with the video performance of my Sony DVP-NS715P. However, I have a good number of non-anamorphic widescreen and older 1.37:1 DVDs that I still like to watch. The expand mode on my TV is nice, but the problem with that is that it crops the incoming signal which often results in chopped up subtitles. Subtitles are very important to me so I want a player that can do the cropping for me that will still display the subtitles properly. Thanks for the info on the Toshibas, tomdkat. I'm gonna check out the SD-4800. I can get that locally for under $200. That's more to my liking than spending close to $400. This doesn't need to be my primary player. I just want something that will better display non-anamorphic widescreen material with subtitles intact. If I'm not happy with the Toshiba I might check out the Panasonic.

01-30-2003, 10:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
MurDiddlyUrdler Banned Join Date: Aug 2002	From what I've read on Toshiba's website it looks like the SD-4800 will do what I'm looking for it to do. I'll check it out and return it if I'm not happy with the performance. Using my Avia disc I've determined that the overscan is about 5% all the way around my TV. Overscan isn't the problem with subtitles when watching a non-anamorphic widescreen disc in EXPAND mode on my TV. The problem is that the subtitles are sometimes authored on the disc to appear below the image frame on a letterboxed DVD. Same problem with my City of Lost Children laserdisc. The subtitles are below the image and if I use the EXPAND mode on my TV, they get cut off. So basically you would see it on any disc where the subtitles are authored to appear below the image. I want the DVD player to be able to do the cropping and still display the subtitles. I don't think I want to spend the dough on an ISF calibration right now. I just had a technician from Tweeter (where I bought the TV) out to my house on Monday for a service call. He tweaked the TV pretty good and I think it looks fabulous right now. I've got a five-year extended warranty from Tweeter and they tell me I can call them pretty much any time in that period if I'm not happy how with it looks. They'll be coming to clean and service my TV once a year under warranty. Looking at your collection, tomdkat, one DVD that I know I have problems with subtitles when I expand it on my TV is Rounders. The subtitles on Rounders are authored to appear completely below the image. Check that disc and see what happens on your Toshiba TV. I'm gonna go out now and get the SD-4800. It can't hurt to check it out. If I don't like what it does for me, I can take it back. No worries there.

02-01-2003, 12:16 AM	#20 (permalink)
MurDiddlyUrdler Banned Join Date: Aug 2002	My Mitsubishi has five video modes: Standard - for anamorphic video Expand - for non-anamorphic widescreen material. It crops the top and bottom. Zoom - for 2.35:1 anamorphic video. It crops the sides to fill the screen. Eliminates the black bars on "scope" movies. Stretched - stretches 4:3 video to fill the screen. Differs from Standard mode in that it does more stretching on the sides than the middle of the picture. You supposedly notice distortion less on this mode than just the straight stretch you would get in Standard mode. Narrow - for proper display of 4:3 video. Gray bars appear on the sides. This video slowly shifts from right to left to eliminate "burn-in" of the gray bars on the sides.