The Truth about DVD errors (is it your player)

[craven1972]

I'm not sure if anyone has ever covered this in the forum anywhere but either way I have something I want to let everyone know.

I recently purchased a Pioneer Elite DV-45A Progressive Scan DVD player. At first I really liked the player but I didn't know any better at the time. So I was watching 8 mile when I noticed a glitch a few times in the movie. It looked like there were lines across everything. At first I figured it was just the movie. So then I put in Gladiator and watched the whole thing and noticed the glitch again only once this time. I played the glitch over and over looking at the glitch frame by frame. It usually seemed to be two frames at a time. So finally I tried the movies with progressive scan turned off and the glitch was gone. After that I returned my player and tried another 45a with the same results. I then started doing some research on the net and found a site: www.hometheaterhifi.com. They have a DVD shootout section and my player had the worst rating. Apparently most DVDs have some errors it just depends how good of a player you have, if it will adjust for the errors or not. They actually tested each player against disks with known errors. I finally ended up getting a Denon 1600 which is at the top of there list and sure enough it doesn't show the errors on 8 mile or any movies. By the way casualties of war has a ton of these errors so that is a good disk to test against. The problem with the Pioneer turned out to be a combing problem. For some reason this Pioneer player has no motion adaptiveness built in.

For those of you that check out the site read the information on the different kinds of errors its quite informative. Also take a look at how some players that cost a ton more than others are lower on the list. Here is the link right to the 2003 shootout http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...ch&articles=5. Let me know what you all think!

[tomdkat]

Thanks for posting the link. We've discussed the Secrets reports some here in the past and if you use the search feature, you can find previous discussion on these reports, as well as discussion on the DV-45a and it's video processing ability.

One other thing to take note of when looking at the Progressve Scan DVD player shootout results, the Secrets guys focus mainly on the video processing aspects of the players and that's about it. They look at de-interlacing ability, how poorly flagged DVDs are handled, etc., and don't discuss how the players handle DVDs with errors or other "quirks" that cause people grief (like we discuss in the Glitch Exhaust).

So, if any given player isn't a "good" player according to the Secrets reports, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a player that's not worth investigating since the Secrets reports don't report test results for EVERY aspect of any given DVD player.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by craven1972
So I was watching 8 mile when I noticed a glitch a few times in the movie. It looked like there were lines across everything. At first I figured it was just the movie. So then I put in Gladiator and watched the whole thing and noticed the glitch again only once this time. I played the glitch over and over looking at the glitch frame by frame. It usually seemed to be two frames at a time.

This behavior is called combing and is undesirable with progressive scan DVD players.

Peace...

[craven1972]

Thanks for the input. Well Im glad to see the word is out there. No I get what your saying about them not looking at every aspect. Like a player can still have some issues but maybe have great sound or other features they don't mention. The thing I'm saying is the 45a should be subpar for anyone. I did mention the fact that it was a combing error and the reason why it has a lot of combing errors at the bottom of the second paragraph. Thanks!

[craven1972]

One other point: I know we have a subject here about the chroma bug they also tested for that on the players and I found it to be accurate. By the way I think the glitch exhaust here is great. Still the Denon 1600 I now own is simply amazing compared to the Pioneer 45a I had. You just have to take into account that the Pioneer played SACD's which the Denon doesn't and they run about the same price.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by craven1972
The thing I'm saying is the 45a should be subpar for anyone.

Actually, that would depend on what you want or need from your DVD player, from a performance standpoint, and how sensitive you are to the quirkiness of any given player. So, the Pioneer Elite DV-45a combed on 8 mile. The Denon DVD-1600 (which is based on the Panasonic DVD-RP82) didn't. Cool. The Pioneer might handle dirty or scratched discs better than the Denon. It might not.

Just last night, I watched a rented copy of "The Replacements". I rented it from Netflix. I was watching it on the Panasonic DVD-XP30, which ranked VERY highly in the current Secrets report results, and the picture was stunning... UNTIL I got to chapter 18 (the bar scene) and at one point the picture pixelated, audio lost sync, and the player soon after froze. I took out the disc and wiped it clean and DID notice some scratches I couldn't remove. I tried it again in the XP30. Same results. So, I tried it in my Pioneer DV-656a, and chapter 18 played flawlessly. The XP30 produced a BETTER progressive picture than the DV-656a, no chroma upsampling error, awesome de-interlacing performance but couldn't handle a scratched disc. The DV-656a performs very close to the XP30, has the chroma upsampling error and doesn't have de-interlacing ability as sophisticated as the XP30. However, I was able to watch the movie.

On paper, the DV-45a looks like a total pice of crap. The DV-47a is in the same boat and the DV-47ai seems to be better, but not that much better. ALL of the players are flag reading players, while the Panasonics and Denons are cadence reading players, which means they shouldn't drop to video mode when a poorly flagged DVD is encountered. Still, there are plenty of DV-45a and DV-47a owners who just LOVE the video performance of their players. In fact, I read where one DV-47a (or DV-47ai) owner actually preferred the Pioneer over the Denon DVD-3800 since the crisp clarity of the Denon made the video appear less film-like and more two dimensional where the video on the Pioneer seemed more "film-like".

The point is, people really need to try the players out for themselves to see if any given player will work best for them and not make purchases solely on the Secrets reports.

Peace...

[craven1972]

I totally agree with what your saying. I mean to some people the chroma bug for instance may not be a big deal but to others it could be a huge problem. What I'm saying about the 45a that I think you maybe missing is it is the only Pioneer player except for the 434 that doesn't have motion-adaptive video deinterlacing. There is no real reason for this other than Pioneer cut a major corner. The point is even if this problem doesn't bother you personnaly by buying the product you are supporting Pioneer and there product that they knowingly cut a major corner on. If we all start to give in to the subpar manufacturing we will eventually be stripped of all the great quality we expect from our home theatre equipment. Even if this bug doesn't bother you it should bother you that a company would cut a corner like this and pass this kind of thing along to the customer. I think it is important that everyone just understand this fact. As far as buying a player solely based on an error it may not handle well I don't think that is fair either. There are many pro's and con's that the Secrets people missed in there report. Besides, its like you said some errors won't bother you as much as me and vice versa. In fact some people will not even notice many errors. One final note: I have seen the 47 and it is so much better with the combing problem than the 45, Almost every DVD I own has this error in some form or another. Also I have watched movies were this problem shows up 40 to 50 times during the movie. That is rediculous.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by craven1972
What I'm saying about the 45a that I think you maybe missing is it is the only Pioneer player except for the 434 that doesn't have motion-adaptive video deinterlacing. There is no real reason for this other than Pioneer cut a major corner. The point is even if this problem doesn't bother you personnaly by buying the product you are supporting Pioneer and there product that they knowingly cut a major corner on.

The only reason people feel this way is because of the "Elite" nomenclature and the cost. For the kind of money Pioneer is asking for this unit (MSRP), you would NOT expect this kind of "corner cutting". Quite frankly, I think a LOT of Pioneer gear is overpriced even though it tends to perform very well. I would LOVE to own more Pioneer Elite equipment, but I just can't afford it. Maybe if it wasn't so expensive, the perspective regarding the DV-45a would be a bit different.

If we all start to give in to the subpar manufacturing we will eventually be stripped of all the great quality we expect from our home theatre equipment.

What about those who purchase the absolutely least expensive player they can find? I'm not talking about those who buy the best they can afford, I mean those who can afford a $1,000 player who go for the < $100 Apex player. Aren't they doing the same thing? The reason that Apex costs < $100 is due to "corner cutting" but our expectations are different because the cost is so little.

Even if this bug doesn't bother you it should bother you that a company would cut a corner like this and pass this kind of thing along to the customer. I think it is important that everyone just understand this fact.

I do agree that whomever made the decision to make the DV-45a what it is today made a bad decision. However, how much research do the vast majority of people do these days? I think that's why Pioneer really doesn't care about the chroma upsampling error since they figure most people won't see it or won't even know what it is, so why even bother worrying about it? I think Pioneer's view, in this regard, is completely in-excusable. However, I think their view is realistic. Still, I there's NO reason NOT to do something about this and I've heard they are investigating different MPEG decoders to possibly be used in some future DVD player offering.

As far as buying a player solely based on an error it may not handle well I don't think that is fair either. There are many pro's and con's that the Secrets people missed in there report. Besides, its like you said some errors won't bother you as much as me and vice versa. In fact some people will not even notice many errors.

Yet a TON of people went out and bought the Panasonic DVD-RP56, DVD-RP82, DVD-CP72, and Denon DVD-1600 and DVD-3800 DVD players based mainly on the Secrets reports. In fact, I was reading where one of the guys who conducts the testing for the Secrets reports was discussing a "chroma delay" problem some of the Denon DVD-3800 DVD players might have. A DVD-3800 owner was ready to get his player serviced to get this fixed, if it could be fixed through servicing, even though he had NOT experienced that problem first hand.

The Secrets guys go to great lengths to make sure people read ALL of their extensive DVD player report and use the information appropriately when they make their purchases. However, hardly anybody looks at the FULL report and they spend most of their time looking at the DVD player shootout results.

This is really an interesting issue since on one hand having that great technical info is a good thing, but on the other it can be a little dangerous since not all of the info is probably being digested. Have you read all of the DVD player report, craven? I know I haven't. I tried but got "lost" in it fairly quickly.

Peace...

[Iguana Man]

Originally posted by tomdkat
So, if any given player isn't a "good" player according to the Secrets reports, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a player that's not worth investigating since the Secrets reports don't report test results for EVERY aspect of any given DVD player.

Peace...

Agreed, I read their report on my Elite DV-05 (after I purchased it) and remember being bummed out by it. However, I'm very happy with the players performance in both video and audio. The only bummer I -had- with it is it won't play svcd's, but that's a moot point for me now.

[mrkeeling]

If you do the search on DV-45A on this forum you may find some interesting reading.

I had both Denon 1600 and Pioneer DV-45A in my setup (and Pany RP-82) and I kept DV-45A. It was $200 less than Denon and it does more for me.

But as Tom said, everybody has different priorities, that’s why there are different players on the market.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by Iguana Man
Agreed, I read their report on my Elite DV-05 (after I purchased it) and remember being bummed out by it.

I bet... the DV-05 and the DV-09 got "slammed" pretty hard by that report.

I've never understood why Pioneer continues to produce players that "suck" on paper. Oh well...

Peace...

[craven1972]

One thing: If Apex makes a cheap player they are admit that it is not the best quality. Pioneer tries to hide their corner cutting and tries to make you pay for it. Hence the name "ELITE". As far as price the 1600 and the 45a were the same price for me. I guess unless you've really watched a movie Like the Casualties of War with like 40 combing errors on it you really can't exactly speak on behalf of the 45a either. I guess my point was lost, so keep spending money on corner cutting and they will keep cutting corners. Thanks for all of your opinions, some of you made really good points.

Thanks

[craven1972]

Originally posted by tomdkat
I bet... the DV-05 and the DV-09 got "slammed" pretty hard by that report.

I've never understood why Pioneer continues to produce players that "suck" on paper. Oh well...

Peace...

Yeah I think the reason Pioneer does this is because people still buy there stuff. Thanks for the points you were very helpful tomdkat. Another funny thing I brough the problem up to the people at my local Tweeter and they didn't have a clue.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by craven1972
Pioneer tries to hide their corner cutting and tries to make you pay for it. Hence the name "ELITE".

Are you implying that all Pioneer Elite gear represents "corner cutting"? I'm not denying the deficiencies of the DV-45a. However, your statement is a bit "broad" in scope, isn't it?

I guess unless you've really watched a movie Like the Casualties of War with like 40 combing errors on it you really can't exactly speak on behalf of the 45a either.

What is that supposed to mean? I'm sure there are TONS of DVDs where the DV-45a combs when it should not. That doesn't mean that nobody can be happy with the player's video performance. All we've basically established is the DV-45a isn't a good player for you (or anyone else that's tried it and didn't care for it).

In other words, just because you didn't like the player doesn't mean NO ONE can.

I guess my point was lost

I fully understood your point, but I think it's somewhat one-sided.. that's all.

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by craven1972
Another funny thing I brough the problem up to the people at my local Tweeter and they didn't have a clue.

You talked about the DV-05 or what?

Peace...

[craven1972]

No I didn't mean all Pioneer Elite equipment. Some of it maybe over priced. Some of it is excellent and then again some of it has problems.

What my comment meant was people who don't have a problem with the video performance should watch a movie that combs a lot to make sure they really don't have a problem with it. You are saying some people like the video but then again those people may have only watched newer movies with less flagging issues. What happends when one day they start to watch some DVDs with more issues then they may become unhappy but then again maybe not? I just don't want to see that happen to anyone, because they should know if they truly can live with a player before they can't return it any more. Ya know what I mean.