DVD Player recommendations: Discuss DVD player recommendations here

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by Madmatt

Any current recommendations for a DVD player to go with an RCA HD65W20. I don't have DirectTV and I just run a set top antenna to get over the air HD. But I would like to get a 1080i image if possible. I'm not that concerned about anything besides DVD quality?

The Oppo. 'nuff said.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back since your TV doesn't have HDMI or DVI inputs. So, I would check out the Pioneer DV-588a or the Toshiba SD-4960. Look online to get better pricing.

EDIT #2: What's your budget?

Peace...

[Madmatt]

Well, I'd like to stay around $100 if possible, but if the player is going to last, I can spend a bit more. I suppose I'm pretty much out of luck when the HD discs really take over.

The Pioneer looks nice, that's a hefty D/A converter. I'm taking a look to see if I can get it locally.

Thanks for the quick replies.

[MRSMITH]

Originally Posted by Madmatt

Any current recommendations for a DVD player to go with an RCA HD65W20. I don't have DirectTV and I just run a set top antenna to get over the air HD. But I would like to get a 1080i image if possible. I'm not that concerned about anything besides DVD quality?

Thanks

I've had this same excellent set for
years now, and I use a Momitsu V880
upconverting player at 1080i. The
resulting image on a high-quality
standard DVD is so close to 'native'
hi-def they're almost indistinguishable.
Unfortunately, even the V880 or even a
better $700 Denon upcon machine
won't help a lousy transfer. But, for
the money the V880 provides a
dazzling 1080i image on this 65-inch set.
The HD65W20 of course has only
component connection capability and
the V880 does the upcon this way as
well as DVI.

I've watched the new Toshiba HD-DVD
'native' with its attendant upcon
capabilities for a couple hours at the
local stores now, and it too does a
superb job of upconverting a standard
DVD. But since LG(includes Zenith) has
already confirmed to Reuters that they
will be offering a multi-format(standard
DVD/HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) DVD player
this Fall, I would not bother considering
paying anywhere near $500 for it(the
'native' hi-def disks are very little better
than upcons with this player. Why would
you buy separate HD-DVD and Blu-Ray
players? The Los Angeles Times today
had a big article on the Toshiba HD-DVD
player and their reporter had the very
same comments.

I don't think you can possible go wrong
with the V880 at this point.

Enjoy!

Milt R. Smith
mrsmith2002@yahoo.com

[BoSoxMole]

This might have been discussed before, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Is getting a DVD player that upconverts to HD that much better than a regular DVD player? I was using my 360 as a DVD player because I it's better quality than my DVD player, but I know that can be bad for the 360.

So, is it worth upgrading?

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by BoSoxMole

So, is it worth upgrading?

I think it's worth it, if you can find a good upconverting player. What kind of TV do you have now?

This would be a good thread to read.

Peace...

[EM3]

Ok this may sound stupid but does the Oppo upconvert through Component up to 1080i or is it restriced to a lower resolution?

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by EM3

Ok this may sound stupid but does the Oppo upconvert through Component up to 1080i or is it restriced to a lower resolution?

I think it upconverts over DVI only. I posted a link to the Oppo review in the "progressive scan vs upconverting" thread and that review will give you the resolution details.

Peace...

[MRSMITH]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I think it's worth it, if you can find a good upconverting player. What kind of TV do you have now?

This would be a good thread to read.

Peace...

A better option now than before IMO: with the very good but disappointing HD-DVD and Blu-Ray machines(problem may be in the transfer rates of those disks now available), the upconverting players look even better now than before on a 'bang for the buck' basis. Using the B/R version of 'The Fifth Element', and its SuperBit standard DVD as a comparison on the same Samsung machine and display, the difference in image(the Samsung upconverts standard DVDs) is so small as to be hardly worth mentioning. The majority of the nation's professional electronics writers came to the same conclusion with HD-DVD, labeling the image as "unimpressive".

So ----- get yourself a good upcon player now at a fraction of the cost of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray and enjoy virtual hi-def. If you have a display with HDMI/DVI you'll have a wide range of machines to choose from, including those with the latest Faroujda chips. If your display only has component, there are fewer to choose from, but an outstanding image anyway. While the chip may be a little dated(Sigma EM8500), the Momitsu V880 series still produces a knock-out upcon picture for somewhere around $300(the V880N is perhaps still the most sophisticated upcon player on the market in terms of features, but the V880s are hard to come by with many outlets on back-order after some three years on the market). While I have not seen ithem in action, the NeoDigits players apparently do an acceptable job via component as well.

Whichever you choose, make sure you have a good return policy from place of purchase just in case the match-up between player and display does not satisfy your eyes.

Enjoy!

Milt R. Smith
mrsmith2002@yahoo.com

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by MRSMITH

So ----- get yourself a good upcon player now at a fraction of the cost of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray and enjoy virtual hi-def.

Or, get yourself a SVHS tape deck from JVC and enjoy "virtual" DVD for WAY less!

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by MRSMITH

with the very good but disappointing HD-DVD and Blu-Ray machines(problem may be in the transfer rates of those disks now available), the upconverting players look even better now than before on a 'bang for the buck' basis.

I'm sure upconverting players would look golden to those comparing first generation HD on DVD players to seasoned and stable upconverting players.

Give me a break, man. The "virtual high-def" stuff doesn't wash with me and that argument falls flat on its face when you factor in the fact that the audio HD-DVD and Blu-Ray whoops any DD/dts audio we've seen on DVD to date. The video performance is only one of many things HD on DVD brings to the table. Why you don't seem to get this, I have no idea. I've posted it here and I've posted this to you on AVS Forum, yet you insist on ignoring it.

How about this: for the sake of argument, let's say HD-DVD video equals Oppo upconversion video. The Oppo can't match the audio performance of either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray so HD on DVD offers the better overall movie viewing experience. So why settle for "virtual high-def" when one can have better than that?

Peace...

[MRSMITH]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I'm sure upconverting players would look golden to those comparing first generation HD on DVD players to seasoned and stable upconverting players.

Give me a break, man. The "virtual high-def" stuff doesn't wash with me and that argument falls flat on its face when you factor in the fact that the audio HD-DVD and Blu-Ray whoops any DD/dts audio we've seen on DVD to date. The video performance is only one of many things HD on DVD brings to the table. Why you don't seem to get this, I have no idea. I've posted it here and I've posted this to you on AVS Forum, yet you insist on ignoring it.

How about this: for the sake of argument, let's say HD-DVD video equals Oppo upconversion video. The Oppo can't match the audio performance of either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray so HD on DVD offers the better overall movie viewing experience. So why settle for "virtual high-def" when one can have better than that?

Peace...

I'm not ignoring it at all. If you will notice, however, my comments exclusively deal with image quality because that is the primary difference the hi-def optical disk formats are offering. Your own argument, IMO, emphasizes the very point I'm making: you seem to suggest that even if the upconverted image is about the same as the 'native' hi-def, then other factors including audio quality trump that in producing a better overall experience. Well, that may be true for some, but certainly not for me. The very first thing I'm interested in, is just what that picture looks like; not only me, but the majority of the nation's professional electronic consumer reporters have described HD-DVD's image as "unimpressive", so I'm surely not alone(you should see the private e-mails I also get from studio insiders who tell me their employers know it, too).

My last weekend's head-to-head comparison of the B/R version of 'The Fifth Element' and its standard DVD(SuperBit) version on the same Samsung and same display said it all - at least to me. The difference was extraordinarily small. And I should pay $1,000 for the player and $25-plus for the disks? In the vernacular, 'Gimme a break'. The immortal Judge Judy said it best: "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining".

I certainly respect your views, but so far HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are much ado about nothing much.

Enjoy!

Milt R. Smith
mrsmith2002@yahoo.com

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by MRSMITH

I'm not ignoring it at all. If you will notice, however, my comments exclusively deal with image quality because that is the primary difference the hi-def optical disk formats are offering.

Yep, I do and have noticed this about your comments and that's exactly why I posted my comments. You're jumping to conclusions based on only one of many things involved, some of which contribute to enhancing the overall movie viewing experience. If this was not desired, there wouldn't be talk about wanting "lossless audio" and so on. DD+ wouldn't be mentioned and people wouldn't give a hoot about dts-HD (or whatever). This just is not the case and to come to the conclusions you do based on ONE factor is ludicrous!

Your own argument, IMO, emphasizes the very point I'm making: you seem to suggest that even if the upconverted image is about the same as the 'native' hi-def, then other factors including audio quality trump that in producing a better overall experience. Well, that may be true for some, but certainly not for me.

That's fine but it's irresponsible to recommend someone forego HD on DVD simply because you don't care about the audio performance AND you don't even mention that as something worth considering.

The very first thing I'm interested in, is just what that picture looks like; not only me, but the majority of the nation's professional electronic consumer reporters have described HD-DVD's image as "unimpressive", so I'm surely not alone(you should see the private e-mails I also get from studio insiders who tell me their employers know it, too).

Don't even get me started on "consumer reporters", who don't seem to understand things like "first generation" and "early adoption", etc. Dude, we'll see how native HD transfers compare with upconverted SD-DVD when those authoring HD on DVD master the new video codecs and break old/bad habits. Let's have this discussion a year from now.

My last weekend's head-to-head comparison of the B/R version of 'The Fifth Element' and its standard DVD(SuperBit) version on the same Samsung and same display said it all - at least to me. The difference was extraordinarily small. And I should pay $1,000 for the player and $25-plus for the disks? In the vernacular, 'Gimme a break'. The immortal Judge Judy said it best: "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining".

I can understand your position and rationale but given you read this and other forums, I would expect you NOT to spend $1000 on Blu-Ray ad spend half that on a HD-DVD player and compare U-571 HD-DVD to SD-DVD or Last Samurai HD-DVD to SD-DVD and see what's up. HD-DVD feedback has been overwhelmingly positive and that spans the spectrum of slightly better to significantly better. In other words, the bulk of the feedback from those with the gear has not been negative, when talking about video performance. I'm not talking player quirks, at this point, but quirks are to be expected with a first gen player.

I certainly respect your views, but so far HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are much ado about nothing much.

I respect you for having your views but I think your views are skewed. I don't expect you to be a fan of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray but if you're going to advise against adopting them, the very least you can do is do that in a responsible manner. If your case is really that strong, it should be easy to do that and not slant things as you're doing. Twice now, you're stating HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are "much ado about nothing" yet you have yet to comment on any HD-DVD comparisons you've done or anything. Others have and they've shown how improved HD-DVD (VC-1) is over SD-DVD (MPEG-2 480i).

On a side note, I did want to say hello since it's been a while since you've posted here.

Peace...

[MRSMITH]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

Yep, I do and have noticed this about your comments and that's exactly why I posted my comments. You're jumping to conclusions based on only one of many things involved, some of which contribute to enhancing the overall movie viewing experience. If this was not desired, there wouldn't be talk about wanting "lossless audio" and so on. DD+ wouldn't be mentioned and people wouldn't give a hoot about dts-HD (or whatever). This just is not the case and to come to the conclusions you do based on ONE factor is ludicrous!

That's fine but it's irresponsible to recommend someone forego HD on DVD simply because you don't care about the audio performance AND you don't even mention that as something worth considering.

Don't even get me started on "consumer reporters", who don't seem to understand things like "first generation" and "early adoption", etc. Dude, we'll see how native HD transfers compare with upconverted SD-DVD when those authoring HD on DVD master the new video codecs and break old/bad habits. Let's have this discussion a year from now.

I can understand your position and rationale but given you read this and other forums, I would expect you NOT to spend $1000 on Blu-Ray ad spend half that on a HD-DVD player and compare U-571 HD-DVD to SD-DVD or Last Samurai HD-DVD to SD-DVD and see what's up. HD-DVD feedback has been overwhelmingly positive and that spans the spectrum of slightly better to significantly better. In other words, the bulk of the feedback from those with the gear has not been negative, when talking about video performance. I'm not talking player quirks, at this point, but quirks are to be expected with a first gen player.

I respect you for having your views but I think your views are skewed. I don't expect you to be a fan of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray but if you're going to advise against adopting them, the very least you can do is do that in a responsible manner. If your case is really that strong, it should be easy to do that and not slant things as you're doing. Twice now, you're stating HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are "much ado about nothing" yet you have yet to comment on any HD-DVD comparisons you've done or anything. Others have and they've shown how improved HD-DVD (VC-1) is over SD-DVD (MPEG-2 480i).

On a side note, I did want to say hello since it's been a while since you've posted here.

Peace...

Well, maybe a year from now things will indeed be different, but it seems to me that we've got to live in the here and now.

Hell, for all I know, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray may both be supplanted by some new format that purportedly holds one terrabyte on a regular-size DVD for movie distribution.

I've never suggested to anyone that they not buy HD-DVD/Blu-Ray or even D-VHS or LaserDisk or any other medium. My entire point is that HD-DVD/Blu-Ray image as of this writing is little better than a high-quality upcon' of a first-class standard DVD transfer, and most professional independent reviewers, starting with David Colker in the L.A. Times, seem to agree - categorizing HD-DVD as "unimpressive". It is not at all surprising that posters in these forums, as H/T enthusuasts, have categorized the images as 'slightly better' to 'significantly better'. I agree wholeheartedly with the 'slightly better' characterization - and that is exactly what the pro's have stated as well. As to 'significantly better', well I disagree based upon what I've personally seen over hours of looking at HD-DVD:

As soon as the machines were available locally, I took off and viewed the accompanying Toshiba demo' disk of hi-def clips on both a 50-inch plasma(Elite model) and a new 72-inch Toshiba DLP, for about 90 minutes(nobody else was around at two stores looking at it at all), and I saw on these bigger screens exactly what Colker saw on small screens. A very good image, but essentially little difference from an upcon on the same player. The core of the problem as of this writing, it seems to me, is not that the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray images are very good(they are), but that they're just not better enough to warrant $500 to $1000 for the players and $25-plus for the disks. Now that, in turn, is a highly subjective view to be sure, but one that is as valid as the gushing public pronouncements from the studios and the machine manufacturers.

Your assertion that we may all look at this very differently a year from now is certainly valid, but how do you know that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will not have been replaced by something better by then? LaserDisk gave way pretty fast to DVD, and I'm not altogether convinced that the same thing cannot happen all over again. These would-be 1-terrabyte formats are allegedly much cheaper to produce as well.

So what's going to decide in the near term? IMO two things: a unified format, or at least players that display both formats on the same machine, and radically reduced pricing for both hardware and software. I'm convinced that - based upon image performance to date - there is just no way that the general mass consumer market is going to shell out anything approaching $500 to $1,000 for the players and $25-plus for disks. Not gonna happen, folks. No way. If the prices were to stay as they are, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is just going to be a D-VHS redux.

Sorry I can't be a cheering section for HD-DVD/Blue-Ray so far, but not telling it like it is would be a disservice it seems.

Enjoy!

Milt R. Smith
mrsmith2002@yahoo.com

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by MRSMITH

Well, maybe a year from now things will indeed be different, but it seems to me that we've got to live in the here and now.

I've got no problem with this except for one thing: if you're going to live in the "here and now", you must keep in mind we're dealing with the introduction of new technology, which has yet to be ironed out and stabilized for mass consumption. When Mac OS X first came out, it was radically different from OS 9 and had all kinds of problems. Guess what? Those problems got fixed and OS X now is much more solid, stable, and reliable than the first versions. A similar thing is going on here. To expect the first run of ANY new technology to perform as if it's already matured is simply unrealistic. Of course, it's your choice to have unrealisitic expectations just as long as you realize they are unrealistic.

Hell, for all I know, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray may both be supplanted by some new format that purportedly holds one terrabyte on a regular-size DVD for movie distribution.

Yep, that's possible but is it likely? Nope. Additionally, even if a new technology with far greater storage capacity than what HD-DVD and Blu-Ray offer now were to come out a year from now, what we're seeing now would be repeated with this new technology. Quirks, problems, lack of (whatever) and this ball would be pushed back up the hill to roll down, as its rolling down now.

The thing is, HD-DVD has proven itself as a viable format and the issues with the first gen player are being worked out via firmware updates. I don't know what the next gen of HD-DVD will offer or how it will perform but it shouldn't have the problems the HD-A1 has or had and it might even have NEW problems of its own (which I'm thinking is likely).

I've never suggested to anyone that they not buy HD-DVD/Blu-Ray or even D-VHS or LaserDisk or any other medium.

Your comments on the previous page certainly advocate an upconverting DVD player over the HD formats, but that's always been your position so it's to be expected from you.

My entire point is that HD-DVD/Blu-Ray image as of this writing is little better than a high-quality upcon' of a first-class standard DVD transfer, and most professional independent reviewers, starting with David Colker in the L.A. Times, seem to agree - categorizing HD-DVD as "unimpressive".

The pro reviewers are entitled to their opinions, just as you are, but that doesn't mean they are right or any "more" right than me or more importantly those who actually own the players being discussed. If HD-DVD truly was not as impressive as the hype implied, the early adopters of HD-DVD would have reported that and there would be mass returns of HD-DVD players. People would STOP buying HD-DVD releases and HD-DVD would basically come to a skreetching halt. This has not been the case. One other thing, given the issues raised with the Blu-Ray transfers thus far it's not right to "lump" HD-DVD and Blu-Ray together, at this point. The various Blu-Ray reviews that have remained online thus far indicate less than stellar video performance and spot-on audio performance (which you still don't consistently mention). This has NOT been the case with HD-DVD releases.

It is not at all surprising that posters in these forums, as H/T enthusuasts, have categorized the images as 'slightly better' to 'significantly better'. I agree wholeheartedly with the 'slightly better' characterization - and that is exactly what the pro's have stated as well. As to 'significantly better', well I disagree based upon what I've personally seen over hours of looking at HD-DVD:

And that's cool. I don't expect everyone to be a fan of HD on DVD, since a lot of it is subjective. However, the "significantly better" reports, again from owners of the players and movie releases, are outnumbering the 'slightly better' reports. Keep in mind, some of these reports are coming from Blu-Ray supporters who decided to give HD-DVD a try even though they prefer Blu-Ray. If anything, I would expect these people to submit the lackluster reports, but that is not the case. Of course, I don't speak in absolutes.

As soon as the machines were available locally, I took off and viewed the accompanying Toshiba demo' disk of hi-def clips on both a 50-inch plasma(Elite model) and a new 72-inch Toshiba DLP, for about 90 minutes(nobody else was around at two stores looking at it at all), and I saw on these bigger screens exactly what Colker saw on small screens. A very good image, but essentially little difference from an upcon on the same player.

So, you played the Toshiba demo disk on a HD-A1 and on an upconverting player? Or are you going by your "gut"? Why not do a "real world" test, like you did with Blu-Ray and compare U-571 or Last Samurai or Serenity on HD-DVD with upconverted DVD and see what you find? Why not? At least, then you would be fair and not using your Blu-Ray experiment to unfairly label HD-DVD, as you've been doing above.

The core of the problem as of this writing, it seems to me, is not that the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray images are very good(they are), but that they're just not better enough to warrant $500 to $1000 for the players and $25-plus for the disks.

That's cool, what you're saying is you're not an early adopter. If that's the case, simply say that. Prices will come down and we're already seeing sales on HD-DVD titles, etc. Additionally, with Netflix stocking both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray titles, you can rent them and spend $0 on titles to watch.

the gushing public pronouncements from the studios and the machine manufacturers.

What do you expect from the studios and the machine manufacturers? This statement makes me believe you tend to take all advertisement purely at face value. Is this the case?

Your assertion that we may all look at this very differently a year from now is certainly valid, but how do you know that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will not have been replaced by something better by then?

That is not my assertion. My statement is: give the technology a chance to mature, then we can compare a mature technology (HD-DVD/Blu-Ray) with another mature technology (DVD) and I'm sure our argument will be much different.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won't be replaced with something "better" in a year that will not go through the same maturity process we're going through right now with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

LaserDisk gave way pretty fast to DVD, and I'm not altogether convinced that the same thing cannot happen all over again.

Yep, it did... after a 20+ year run. Also, how long did the LD vs DVD wars rage, especially on the audio side? I know you've seen the same LD vs DVD audio threads on AVS Forum proving some LDs still had superior audio to the DVD counterparts. Remember Bjoern Roy?

So what's going to decide in the near term? IMO two things: a unified format, or at least players that display both formats on the same machine, and radically reduced pricing for both hardware and software.

Although radically reduced prices would be desired, I don't think it will happen until the players stabilize and the studios have confidence in them. A universal player is also desirable, but looks unlikely right now. I think the only thing that can save Blu-Ray is better software authoring and cleaner video processing from Sony and Pioneer players. I don't know what Toshiba has up its sleeve to counter the introduction of these Blu-Ray players.

I'm convinced that - based upon image performance to date - there is just no way that the general mass consumer market is going to shell out anything approaching $500 to $1,000 for the players and $25-plus for disks.

I agree and not based on video performance. The great thing is, nor HD-DVD or Blu-Ray are "ready" for mass consumption so the masses don't have to think about these formats yet.

One question I have for you, when you watch a movie do you have the sound muted?

Sorry I can't be a cheering section for HD-DVD/Blue-Ray so far, but not telling it like it is would be a disservice it seems.

That's ok, there are plenty of other HD on DVD cheerleaders out there. I do agree with you on the "telling it like it is" and I wish you would start doing just that....

By the way, we have a forum dedicated to HD discussion. Find the appropriate thread in that forum and we can continue this there.

Peace....

[BoSoxMole]

I could get this Samsung because I have $80.00 on a CompUSA giftcard.

Is this good?

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by BoSoxMole

I could get this Samsung because I have $80.00 on a CompUSA giftcard.

Is this good?

Well, that price is damned good but I don't know about the quality of the player. If CompUSA would let you return it, even though you're using the giftcard, I would think it might be worth checking out. You can also search for the model number of the player to see if you can find reviews of the player.

Peace...

[MRSMITH]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

I've got no problem with this except for one thing: if you're going to live in the "here and now", you must keep in mind we're dealing with the introduction of new technology, which has yet to be ironed out and stabilized for mass consumption. When Mac OS X first came out, it was radically different from OS 9 and had all kinds of problems. Guess what? Those problems got fixed and OS X now is much more solid, stable, and reliable than the first versions. A similar thing is going on here. To expect the first run of ANY new technology to perform as if it's already matured is simply unrealistic. Of course, it's your choice to have unrealisitic expectations just as long as you realize they are unrealistic.

Yep, that's possible but is it likely? Nope. Additionally, even if a new technology with far greater storage capacity than what HD-DVD and Blu-Ray offer now were to come out a year from now, what we're seeing now would be repeated with this new technology. Quirks, problems, lack of (whatever) and this ball would be pushed back up the hill to roll down, as its rolling down now.

The thing is, HD-DVD has proven itself as a viable format and the issues with the first gen player are being worked out via firmware updates. I don't know what the next gen of HD-DVD will offer or how it will perform but it shouldn't have the problems the HD-A1 has or had and it might even have NEW problems of its own (which I'm thinking is likely).

Your comments on the previous page certainly advocate an upconverting DVD player over the HD formats, but that's always been your position so it's to be expected from you.

The pro reviewers are entitled to their opinions, just as you are, but that doesn't mean they are right or any "more" right than me or more importantly those who actually own the players being discussed. If HD-DVD truly was not as impressive as the hype implied, the early adopters of HD-DVD would have reported that and there would be mass returns of HD-DVD players. People would STOP buying HD-DVD releases and HD-DVD would basically come to a skreetching halt. This has not been the case. One other thing, given the issues raised with the Blu-Ray transfers thus far it's not right to "lump" HD-DVD and Blu-Ray together, at this point. The various Blu-Ray reviews that have remained online thus far indicate less than stellar video performance and spot-on audio performance (which you still don't consistently mention). This has NOT been the case with HD-DVD releases.

And that's cool. I don't expect everyone to be a fan of HD on DVD, since a lot of it is subjective. However, the "significantly better" reports, again from owners of the players and movie releases, are outnumbering the 'slightly better' reports. Keep in mind, some of these reports are coming from Blu-Ray supporters who decided to give HD-DVD a try even though they prefer Blu-Ray. If anything, I would expect these people to submit the lackluster reports, but that is not the case. Of course, I don't speak in absolutes.

So, you played the Toshiba demo disk on a HD-A1 and on an upconverting player? Or are you going by your "gut"? Why not do a "real world" test, like you did with Blu-Ray and compare U-571 or Last Samurai or Serenity on HD-DVD with upconverted DVD and see what you find? Why not? At least, then you would be fair and not using your Blu-Ray experiment to unfairly label HD-DVD, as you've been doing above.

That's cool, what you're saying is you're not an early adopter. If that's the case, simply say that. Prices will come down and we're already seeing sales on HD-DVD titles, etc. Additionally, with Netflix stocking both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray titles, you can rent them and spend $0 on titles to watch.

What do you expect from the studios and the machine manufacturers? This statement makes me believe you tend to take all advertisement purely at face value. Is this the case?

That is not my assertion. My statement is: give the technology a chance to mature, then we can compare a mature technology (HD-DVD/Blu-Ray) with another mature technology (DVD) and I'm sure our argument will be much different.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won't be replaced with something "better" in a year that will not go through the same maturity process we're going through right now with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Yep, it did... after a 20+ year run. Also, how long did the LD vs DVD wars rage, especially on the audio side? I know you've seen the same LD vs DVD audio threads on AVS Forum proving some LDs still had superior audio to the DVD counterparts. Remember Bjoern Roy?

Although radically reduced prices would be desired, I don't think it will happen until the players stabilize and the studios have confidence in them. A universal player is also desirable, but looks unlikely right now. I think the only thing that can save Blu-Ray is better software authoring and cleaner video processing from Sony and Pioneer players. I don't know what Toshiba has up its sleeve to counter the introduction of these Blu-Ray players.

I agree and not based on video performance. The great thing is, nor HD-DVD or Blu-Ray are "ready" for mass consumption so the masses don't have to think about these formats yet.

One question I have for you, when you watch a movie do you have the sound muted?

That's ok, there are plenty of other HD on DVD cheerleaders out there. I do agree with you on the "telling it like it is" and I wish you would start doing just that....

By the way, we have a forum dedicated to HD discussion. Find the appropriate thread in that forum and we can continue this there.

Peace....

Problem with your argument is that with machines costing $500 to $1,000(and disks north of $25) I -for one - will not accept the proposition that I should be patient and wait for the glitches to be worked out. When Microsoft, let's say, comes out with a $200 software package and it has initial problems that's one thing. But $500 to $1,000? No way, Jose.
Uh-uh. Certainly, if others wish to be patient at these price-points, more power to the Toshiba and Sony clans, but I sure won't be held up, nor suggest to friends or acquaintances that they too should be held up.

No disagreement that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are 'viable' formats but so was Beta, so was LaserDisk, so was D-VHS. So what? They're either gone or on life-support. If we're going to move on beyond standard DVD, as I think we should and will at some point, the current combination of incremental image improvement and high prices will hinder that conversion.
As of this writing, IMO based upon what I've seen so far, is a the 'big con' writ large.

The only reason I have to date always recommended a good upconverting player vs the 'native' formats so far, is that the 'natives' in my view just aren't good enough to warrant the extra expenditure, and the upcon machines are. And, I think, we're going to see this principle in spades very shortly with early adopters soon to have some very expensive doorstops with the single-format HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players(can you tell me now which format will be the survivor?)

That the professional reviewers are or are not entitled to their viewpoints is not the issue: the relevance is that the majority have found HD-DVD, for example, "unimpressive". That is significant. As to how many will return their HD-DVD players because of the purported "unimpressive" performance, these are essentially the same folks who bought LaserDisk, D-VHS and other new technologies. For most of them, and for sake of argument only, they wouldn't do such a return on principle alone. They're too embarrassed that they may have been snooked(and so far, I think this is exactly what is the case as pointed out in those "unimpressive" performance reviews).

Audio? I purposely looked all over several forums this morning looking specifically for H/D posts about the audio qualities of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, and found so few that I think it might be in the 1% category, I dunno. If representative, that would suggest that most others too are concerned overwhelmingly with image quality, and not the sound improvements offered by HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. For me, my audio is plenty loud, and the quality out of my Momitsu V880 and other equipment is more than good enough, it's excellent. Again, why spend $500 to $1,000 for audio quality described as incrementally better? Can you point out to me a professional review of HD-DVD/Blu-Ray audio characterizing it as vastly better than standard DVD? A list of my audio and video equipment has been posted earlier and you can find it if you wish on one forum or other.

In comparing the Toshiba, I do not happen to own any of the titles that were being demo'd, but I did take my standard DVD(SuperBit) of 'Hollow Man' and put it up on the 50-inch plasma and the 72-inch Toshiba DLP immediately after to try and get an idea of how the images compare. The resolution, color saturation and contrast of the 'native' HD-DVD clips was better, but once again, the difference so small as to be hardly worth mentioning. If I can get hold of a title-for-title comparison for an HD-DVD trial as I did Blu-Ray, I'm going to do so.

This, in my view, is telling it like it is all around. I'm sorry that the overall impression I've had that HD-DVD/Blu-Ray to date is 'much ado about nothing much', but that's the way it is.

Enjoy!

Milt R. Smith
mrsmith2002@yahoo.com

[tomdkat]

I'll respond to you in