Software vs. Hardware Players

[heech]

Hey guys,

This is probably a really common question, so apologies in advance if you've all seen it many times. I did a couple searches in this forum and couldn't find any relevant threads, so pointers would be appreciated.

I'm probably going to go the HTPC route. I'm trying to figure out, though, how good of a performance I'm going to get if I end up going with a software DVD player (WiNDVD) on the PC. I have the 61" Samsung DLP, and was planning to feed DVI directly from one of the common (but high-end) consumer graphics cards out there... the ATI Radeon 9600... which I believe will help somewhat in DVD rendering... but I wasn't planning to get a separate hardware DVD decoder, either.

Could someone briefly explain to me the disadvantages/advantages of this route, versus the stand-alone DVI DVD-player from Samsung?

Thanks in advance.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by heech
Could someone briefly explain to me the disadvantages/advantages of this route, versus the stand-alone DVI DVD-player from Samsung?

I'm not HTPC expert but I would imagine one of the most basic differences would be in de-interlacing. HTPCs are known for producing a stunning progressive scan picture and the standalone progressive scan DVD players are trying to keep pace. I'm not sure if one could distinguish a Denon DVD-3800, Panasonic RP-82, or Pioneer DV-47ai if all three were connected to a DLP display via DVI (none of these players support DVI, so I'm just speaking hypothetically here... ) versus a HTPC connected to that same display via DVI.

Provided the Samsung has an MPEG decoder and de-interlacer comparable to the HTPC, the HTPC would probably "win" the video performance contest.

The DVI connection will help the picture quality a LOT (as compared to analog video connections) but by the time the video is output via DVI, it will have already been de-interlaced and if the de-interlacer sucks, the progressive scan video won't be optimal.

The DVD player software (apps like WinDVD and PowerDVD) tend to be "flag readers", which means improperly flagged DVDs can "trip them up". Newer versions of these apps have cadence reading abilities which make them more "immune" to bad flags.

I suggest reading this article about DVD player software.

Peace...

[chlngr1970]

is it possible to go DVI out to the DVI in on the HDTV? I have read elsewhere that the two are not compatable...

As far as the differences between a set top DVD player and an HTPC,

well the HTPC wins hands down in the Picture quality area. Ease of use is where the set top DVD player wins out tho, so if you have someone that is technologicly challenged, you may want to re-consider...

( I have an HTPC BTW )

j

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by chlngr1970
is it possible to go DVI out to the DVI in on the HDTV? I have read elsewhere that the two are not compatable...

Leaving the HDCP issue out of the picture for the time being, I think it IS possible to directly connect a DVI capable DVD player to a DVI capable display and it will work. Again, this is only what I think.

Things get "hairy" if you have a DVI device outputting a HDCP encoded video signal via DVI to a DVI capable display that is NOT HDCP compliant.

Peace...

[chlngr1970]

I wasn't even refering to HDMI. I was refering to DVI-D VS DVI-A. Isn't one used for computers and one used for HDTV?

If not, then I am more likely to pick up a set that has DVI in and use my HTPC on it for casual movie watching...

j

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by chlngr1970
I was refering to DVI-D VS DVI-A. Isn't one used for computers and one used for HDTV?

I haven't seen the kind of DVI connection that displays (like HDTVs) have vs the kind of DVI connection DVD players are coming out with.

Given DVD player manufacturers figure people will connect their DVD player to a TV vs computer monitor, they would equip their DVi capable DVD players with the HDTV compatible DVI connection and vice-versa for HDTV manufacturers.

I'm not saying you are incorrect but only that I have NOT seen this kind of question asked or discussed when I've read discussion about DVI capable DVD players.

Great question!

Peace...

[Chromy]

I'm a big fan of HTPCs... that said, I'm pretty impressed with my new DVD player (just having been able to play with it tonight for the first time since getting it two weeks ago).

I use a HTPC for my CRT RPTV and still think that for this set is the way to go. However, I could no longer say it was for the de-interlacing/menu access speed/layer change speed. The new player has performance close to the HTPC for menu access speed, and outperforms on de-interlacing and layer changes. However, the HTPC does one thing that the standalone player does not do... and that is scaling.

I'm running my HTPC output resolution @ 1440x540p which does give a smoother picture than is possible from the standalone player. Non-anamorphic performance from the HTPC absolutely BLOWS away the standalone player (as the HTPC does a much better job of scaling than the TV scaler does). The HTPC software that I run also autoselects aspect ratio between 16x9 and 4x3.

The reason that I got a standalone player though, is that I am stepping up to a fixed pixel device... and I'm guessing that the de-interlacer/scaler in the display device will be similar to the performance that I get currenly from my HTPC with the added benefit of cadence reading (which my current DVD software package does not do) for the deinterlacing. With a CRT device I'm basicly scaling up to a HD resolution... and I like the way that looks as opposed to 720x480.

So, with the DLP device, I'm banking that I'll get similar/better performance with a standalone player, without the hassle of having to boot my DVD player. This is ONLY because I have a great deal of faith in the abilities of the scaler/de-interlacer in the unit that I am looking at though.

As far as hardware/software on a HTPC... your Radeon card IS the MPEG decoder hardware (if you choose to use it). Most DVD software packages will allow you to use the CPU (software) or Graphics card (hardware). No additional decoding hardware is needed for the video.

Chromy

[Dr. Evil]

Any comments on the deinterlacing properties of the Holo3D card? I noticed that those were on sale.

RD

[Chromy]

Have not seen the card in action... although it sounds like this is the creme-de-la-creme of PC video cards (for HTPC use). Interesting to see people going back to a hardware solution for deinterlacing... although they do admit that... "fully expect that some day soon dScaler will in fact surpass DCDi in video deinterlacing".

Chromy

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by Chromy
The new player has performance close to the HTPC for menu access speed, and outperforms on de-interlacing and layer changes.

Thanks for the feedback. This means that standalone progressive scan DVD players are getting better at de-interlacing, and that's great news!

So, future progressive scan DVD players should really blow us away!

However, the HTPC does one thing that the standalone player does not do... and that is scaling.

You should qualify your statement a bit. Your standalone DVD player doesn't do scaling where other progressive scan DVD players do have scaling functions.

Peace...

[MurDiddlyUrdler]

Chromy,

What is the model of your new DVD player that compares so favorably with your HTPC? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
What is the model of your new DVD player that compares so favorably with your HTPC?

I believe he's got the Denon DVD-2900.

Peace.....

[Chromy]

That is correct (2900)...

Now, as far as scaling goes... I think that I need some clarification on this one.

The only dvd players that I'm aware of that do scaling are players that will take letterboxed video, and scale/zoom so that the output looks anamorphic to the TV set. This benefits sets that lock into 16x9 mode when presented a progressive input.

However, as I understand, these sets are still outputting 480p. The advantage the HTPC has over these DVD players is in upscaling the video to a 1080i derivitive (540p).

Are there any dvd players that will scale up and output a resolution higher than 480p?

It is all about selecting the right player for the application. In the case of my upcomming set, a clean set top box will perform better than a HTPC... on my 47" Mits the HTPC is the best solution.

Chromy

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by Chromy
The only dvd players that I'm aware of that do scaling are players that will take letterboxed video, and scale/zoom so that the output looks anamorphic to the TV set. This benefits sets that lock into 16x9 mode when presented a progressive input.

The Panasonic DVD-RP91 and the Toshiba SD-4800 are two examples of DVD players that do this.

Are there any dvd players that will scale up and output a resolution higher than 480p?

There are some DVD players, like the Bravo D1 that output a 480p upconverted to 1080i video signal via DVI, if not both DVI and component video. You can find links to the Bravo D1 in the DVD player recommendation thread in this forum or in the HD-DVD thread in Soapbox.



Peace...

[Chromy]

There we go! Sounds like the Bravo player does what a HTPC does... although at $200 bucks I wonder if it does it as well.

http://www.vinc.us/level2.asp?id=31&PID=21

Interesting unit though!

[MurDiddlyUrdler]

The Samsung HD-931 DVD player also outputs a 1080i picture via DVI. I have no DVI inputs so I won't be checking out this player.

[Chromy]

I guess the other advantage of a HTPC is that you can do either component, or RGBHV outputs Not just DVI (although you can certainly do that too)

Chromy

[Dr. Evil]

Have not seen the card in action... although it sounds like this is the creme-de-la-creme of PC video cards (for HTPC use). Interesting to see people going back to a hardware solution for deinterlacing... although they do admit that... "fully expect that some day soon dScaler will in fact surpass DCDi in video deinterlacing".

That's the first model; the second one is a big leap forward, being completely self-contained in hardware, and not needing the use of any of the PC's facilities or having to send data over the PCI bus, and it also has provisions for a daughtercard that will add HD-related functionality.

Sounds like the standard for "crème de la crème" in HTPC video processing just took a big leap forward.

RD

[Chromy]

Do you have any info on the new card? All I can find (officially) is here...
http://www.immersiveinc.com/products_holo3d.html

Are they going to some other type of scaling? In the FAQ they only mention DCDi... are they moving to a different de-interlacing solution?

Chromy

[Dr. Evil]

Click here.

If I get a job, I might just buy one of these!

Cheers, RD