DVD-Audio / SACD Player?

[markedouglas]

Anyone know of any players that are likely to be SACD/DVD-A hybrid due to come out from any companies in the near future? I have the SACD version of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON and I dont want to get stuck with a format thats ganna die... Even if it gets released on DVD-A I dont want to have to buy another player for at least a few years.

[Chromy]

There are a couple of 'universal' players now. Denon, Pioneer, and Apex are a few companies making players that play all formats now.

Chromy

[tomdkat]

If you do a search on "DV-45a" you will find discussion on the Pioneer Elite DV-45a and other DVD-A/SACD players.

Peace...

[snipsnapsappy]

I am saving my pennies for the new Denon-2900. I am hoping the price will go way down at the end of the summer. The lowest I have been able to find it is $830. I think it can only be bought at Denon authorized dealers at the moment. But this looks to be the best of the bunch put out so far. The Pioneer Elite DVD45A would be the best bet for most people, though. I just want the best if I go with another new player. (This will be my 9th personal dvd player since 1997. And I am only 21 years old). But I have never had a truly high end player, and so this time I am definitely getting a great one.

[EM3]

Next month Pioneer has a DV-563A player coming out that does SACD and DVD-A. Don't know how good it is but maybe some early reviews will come out.

[Auditor55]

Originally posted by snipsnapsappy
I am saving my pennies for the new Denon-2900. I am hoping the price will go way down at the end of the summer. The lowest I have been able to find it is $830. I think it can only be bought at Denon authorized dealers at the moment. But this looks to be the best of the bunch put out so far. The Pioneer Elite DVD45A would be the best bet for most people, though. I just want the best if I go with another new player. (This will be my 9th personal dvd player since 1997. And I am only 21 years old). But I have never had a truly high end player, and so this time I am definitely getting a great one.

I would never spend $830 on DVD player, SACD and DVD-A are turning out to be failed formats ala Quad. At 21 years old, the type of music you probably like will be scarely available in those formats. Also $830 is too much to pay for a progress scan player these days. If you spend $830 you will regret it, just ask the folks who purchased the Denon 9000 at $3,500 (without SACD).

[Wirehed]

I think it's a bit early to declair SACD and DVD-A dead. Multi-channel audio has just started to surface, and pretty much right now it's a high-end toy. You pay the price for early adoption in all areas of technology. I don't think spending $900 on a high-end peice of equipment is out of line at all. I'm sure we all know that player will be outdated in a year and something bigger and better will become available, that's the game we all play.

I spent $1500 on my second DVD player. It was pretty much just about the best you could get. And right now it's plugged into my kitchen TV because it's not progressive scan. I'm not sorry I bought it, It performed like a champ for at least three years. I just replaced it with something better (in this case a home theater PC).

[mrkeeling]

I don’t think that DVD-a and SACD are dead (they are just poorly marketed). If both of them do die, I’ll be very sad because I’ll really miss the sound quality that both formats are capable of.

It is great pleasure and joy to listen to the titles that I have and I am really looking forward for getting some recently announced.

I hardly ever listen to the CD’s. Actually I do not LISTEN to CD’s any more. They do play as background music on my system when I’m doing something else, but when I LISTEN it is always DVD-a or SACD.

[Jellodyne]

The music industry deserves P2P filesharing. The way they're running their business its a suprise any of them are still in business.

There's absolutely no reason for them to not be activley transitioning the industry to a high-def format, which would incidentally, give people a reason to buy rather than download. The Industry needs to make people say - oh, that's nice that you downloaded that album but it's not as good as my storebought copy *sniff**looks down nose*. It's a tough argument to claim the quality of an MP3 is equal to either of the HD-Formats.

But it's a tough argument to buy a $500 player for a format that may or may not make it, and the local store stocks one small section of discs for, which cost $20-30 per. The recording industry, if it wants to grow less obsolecent, needs to adopt a format everyone can agree on, start releasing all discs in hi-def (at roughly the same cost as the standard CD, maybe a buck or two higher at most), with the standard CD coming later, if at all, and regulated to the back of the store, and force everyone to upgrade. All new CD players and car decks should support that format.

While I'm on the subject, where are the HD format car desks? Isn't almost every car stereo a multi-channel setup? Downmix that 5.1 to 4.0 and you're golden!

With the cost of the dvd transports and electronics, were either format mass market, theres no reason for it to command a high premium. I'm not saying you could make a $60 SACD or DVD-Audio player that sounds as good as a $1000 player, but I am saying that (1) you could make a $60 audio only APEX-style player that sounds like crap, but plays the hi-def format and (2) you could make a really decent $150 player and (3) you could sell that $1000 player for $300 if you were moving enough units.

As for the discs themselves, they certainly don't command more than a 50 cent premium to replicate. There will be somewhat higher mastering costs, but those are and will be droping like a rock. It's just a matter of the record companies not wanting to invest a dime in their future or increasing the quality of their product, not wanting to compromise on someone else's tech (NIH syndrome), not wanting to do anything but keep raking in the money. And if the money starts slowing down a little, it's time to find someone else to blame.

For 40 years they've managed to run a cartel with a non-scarce commodity, mostly by keeping the barriers to entry artifically high and controlling the means of distribution in radio (payola, still after all these years, where the big money is in radio) and retail. The Internet changes all that. But they have at least one round of bumping the barriers and ensuring the 'product' is too fat to fit the available sharing medium (see recording CDs onto cassette tape -- it worked but it wasn't the same, same with SACD onto MP3). It'll give them another 10 years or so, but they're pissing it away.

[tomdkat]

Great post, Jellodyne!

Peace...

[Wirehed]

Originally posted by tomdkat
Great post, Jellodyne!

Peace...

Ditto.

In fact it should almost be snipped and made into its own thread.

I totally agree with your thoughts on the state of the internet and MP3s. But I think the whole industry is going to crash and burn before they give in.

[mrkeeling]

Jellodyne

My thoughts on MP3:

A while ago I burned a CD using only 320 Kbps MP3 files. It sounded just fine on my computer on work and on my kid’s boom box, but when I put it in my main system it sounded WORSE than CD. That was the end of my attempts in “stealing” music.

I still do listen to MP3 music, in the way of sampling and finding out what I like. If I find a music that I like and it is available on SACD or DVD-a, I’ll run to store to buy it! (I do not buy CD’s any more. Just can’t justify spending money on something that sounds inferior – I always hope it’ll be released on SACD or DVD-a, like latest Gabriel’s “Up”)

In other words MP3 is a great promotional medium and maybe, someday, somebody will figure that out.

[snipsnapsappy]

Someone said that I would not be happy with a DVDaudio player becuase I am only 21. But I currently have a DVDaudio player and currently own 12 DVD Audio discs. They range from Fleetwood Mac and Eagles to Metallica and Linkin Park. The reason I only own 12 is because, like you said, there just are not enough titles yet. However, with an SACD player, I would have access to a whole lot more discs. I already own Pink Floyd and 3 Doors Down Hybrid discs waiting to be able to hear them in High Resolution. And yes, my system is more than capable of telling a huge difference between the merits of CD and High Res music. Just check out my theater setup in this forum, not your typical college student apartment. But I personally find my current JVC progressive/DVDAudio player to be weak in its picture quality and (from what I have read) weak in the sound quality vs. a Denon 1600, 2900 or Panasonic RP91 (players I am interested in).

One thing I agree with you on is that high res music will never catch on to the extent of DVD-V or CD because it is not that big of a step up from the previous format. The same will be true of HD-DVD. The only people who will notice a difference are the people with fancy setups. CD and DVD-V were a giant step forward from VHS and Casette without the need of high end equipment to notice a major inprovement. Alot of people think high res music is dead because it did not explode like DVD-V did. It never will. Neither will HD-DVD. Just know that high res music sounds amazing and if amazing sound interests you, look into it.

Like I said in my post earlier, I am sick of finding severe problems with these brand name inexpensive players. My current JVC cost me $360 (not exactly inexpensive), yet it is not of very high quality. So I am ready for another step in quality and I think the Denon looks like the best available product now or announced down the road.

If Denon came out with a player similar to the 1600 that had SACD, I would definitely rather get that one because it would be cheaper but still very high quality.

[snipsnapsappy]

I found the Pioneer Elite DV45A for only $333.00 at www.50topsellers.com. This seems to be the best deal I can find for it.
Pretty damn tempting, but I have heard the audio/video performance leaves much to be desired. Ah the debate rages on.

[octopus1256]

I would like to invest in a SACD player, either today or tomorrow. Looking at the Sony SCDXE670 for £120, which is less than what my Sony CDP-XB930 CD player cost.

My question is, will I see a difference in sound quality?

My amp doesn't quote itself as being SACD compatible - but does say it can handle that sort of bandwidth (i.e. 100kHz). And I found out today that my speakers have the same woofers as in some £2k Ruark speakers (not really relevant...).

[snipsnapsappy]

Your amp would need a 6 channel external input. It is 6 RCA cables to make up the 6 channels of sound.

[snipsnapsappy]

You will need a reciever with a 6 channel external in. Shown in the photo below. 6 RCA cables from the dvd player to the reciever. 1 cable for each of the 6 channels.

[Jellodyne]

Can you believe in the entire rant above I failed to mention the fact that (with a couple of propietary exceptions) there's no digital transport between SACD/DVD-A players and your receiver?

Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick people, do you want to sell us music or would you rather screw everything up to the point that stealing it is more convenient!?

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by Jellodyne
Can you believe in the entire rant above I failed to mention the fact that (with a couple of propietary exceptions) there's no digital transport between SACD/DVD-A players and your receiver?

Actually, the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi uses a standard IEEE 1394 (Firewire) connection for digital audio in and the Pioneer Elite DV-47ai has a Firewire output for digital audio, which also supports DVD-A and SACD I think. Provided my info is correct, the Pioneer solution isn't proprietary at all. If another vendor produced a DVD-A and/or SACD player that used Firewire for it's digital audio output, then the Pioneer receiver _should_ accept that input just fine.

I haven't seen this config first hand so I'm guessing, at this point.

Peace...

[3DMan]

Originally posted by mrkeeling
Jellodyne

My thoughts on MP3:

A while ago I burned a CD using only 320 Kbps MP3 files. It sounded just fine on my computer on work and on my kid’s boom box, but when I put it in my main system it sounded WORSE than CD. That was the end of my attempts in “stealing” music.

Hmm! I read somewhere that MP3s that were >192Kbps WERE CD quality. Not so, I guess?

[MurDiddlyUrdler]

Still, Jellodyne has a good point that the vast majority of DVD-A/SACD options are analog only. You'd think there would be a way to output a digital signal through a typical player's optical or coax digital output.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by MurDiddlyUrdler
Still, Jellodyne has a good point that the vast majority of DVD-A/SACD options are analog only.

Yeah, I'm with BOTH of you on that. I'm guessing someone determined it was best to "get to market" with a DVD-A and/or SACD player offering multi-channel output via analog connections because that could be done "faster" than designing a digital output. At least initially. In the case of the Pioneer DV-47a and the DV-47ai, the DV-47ai come out VERY shortly after the DV-47a did and offered the Firewire solution. I would hope the next round of DVD-A/SACD players offer digital and analog mlti-channel outputs for DVD-A/SACD output as well as offering digital and analog outputs for DD and dts audio (if the player has built-in DD and dts decoders).

We shall see....

Peace...

[Jellodyne]

Tomdkat: How does the Pioneer combo send the signal? Surely not unencrypted! Does it just send the raw data from the disc and let the receiver decode it, or is it a proprietary connection? If there's a standard and only one company supports it, does it matter that it's not propietary? I suppose if everyone jumps on the bandwagon it does, time will tell.

MurDiddlyUrdler: the standard S/PDIF and toslink conectors haven't got the bandwidth for either format. You need something like Firewire. Or Gigabit ethernet.

3DMan: If your starting point is a CD and you apply a lossy compression algorythm, by definition you end up with less than CD quality. I burn MP3s using a VBR between 128 and 224 kbps and they sound pretty close to CD to me. But then my speakers are terrible, so what do I know.

Incidentally, for all the playa-hating I've been doing, I may actually be jumping on the DVD-Audio bandwagon. My trusty (not) Sony DVD-S560D is giving up the ghost and I'm likely going to be picking up the Panasonic DVDF85S, which is a slim 5 disc changer with progressive scan, DVD-Audio, and its on sale at Circuit City for $129... so I guess never mind my complaints about DVD-Audio being too expensive. Looks to me at that price they're positioning it as something that can be included 'free', which is exactly the right approach. SACD still looks pretty steep. Sony's new $150 5 disc changer doesn't have it. The first one which does looks to be ~$250, though I could be mistaken.

[snipsnapsappy]

I got into DVD-A because it was an extra feature on the dvd player I bought. Now I love the product, but the software selection is still lacking.

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by Jellodyne
Tomdkat: How does the Pioneer combo send the signal? Surely not unencrypted! Does it just send the raw data from the disc and let the receiver decode it, or is it a proprietary connection?

Sorry for the delay, but I've been off gathering info.

It looks like the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi will decode DD, dts, DVD-Audio audio, SACD audio signals received via the Firewire connection (called "iLink"). I'm still gathering MORE info, and I'll post that when I have it.

Here is a quote from the Pioneer website:

VSX-49TXi
THX Ultra 2 A/V Receiver with i-Link
Our flagship VSX-49TXi has been upgraded with an i.Link digital interface-a world's first-to handle multi-channel DVD-A, SACD, and other digital audio signal transmissions between a DVD player and receiver. The benefit: unmatched audio processing, using ONE wire.

If there's a standard and only one company supports it, does it matter that it's not propietary?

Yup, because if the technology used becomes "the standard", the first company to implement it has an advantage in the marketplace. If a DVD manufacturer now makes a DVD player with a Firewire output, theorhetically they can connect it to the VSX-49TXi via "iLink" and get digital audio reproduction. I'm researching/confirming this now.

I suppose if everyone jumps on the bandwagon it does, time will tell.

Yup, you're right about that. Time will tell...

Peace...

[tomdkat]

Originally posted by tomdkat
It looks like the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi will decode DD, dts, DVD-Audio audio, SACD audio signals received via the Firewire connection (called "iLink"). I'm still gathering MORE info, and I'll post that when I have it.

I just exchanged e-mail messages with a VSX-49TXi owner who also owns the Pioneer Elite DV-47ai. He says he passes DVD-Audio, SACD, DD, dts, and CD audio (including CD-R, CD-RW) audio all through his iLink (Firewire) connection to his VSX-49TXi receiver.

Peace...