That Center Speaker sound...

[metallica50]

I was just watching THE MATRIX 2 and realizing that the center channel just doesnt sound like a full fledged speaker (and it isn't I know) but even set to SMALL and sending anything under 100hz to the sub, it still sounds like a special speaker on top of my TV where all dialogue comes from, but not actually part of the rest of the system. Let me see if I can explain further.
I HAVE CURRENTLY:
4 MTX Monitor 10's which are Full Rangers for L R LS RS.
and then I have the Center Channel, which is a JBL S-Center II.
(It's usually on top of the TV, but I've been putting under the the tv firing up, and it does improve bass response.)

now if I were to turn the center channel off, and close my eyes, i could honestly feel like I was sitting in a movie theater. it sounds pretty good. but then I turn the center on, and it gives it away, i'm listening to a small speaker. I've yet to find a center channel that can keep up with a regular speaker (full range). does anyone have one that DOESNT sound like its coming from a little box on top of the TV , or sounds nearly exactly like their L and R speakers?

oh yeah, and i know the JBL doesnt match the MTX, but I had the same experience with the MTX counterpart, and it sounded even worse.

[octopus1256]

Ditch the JBL if you think it sounds better without it. I do't use a centre channel myself as four channels is enough to fill a small room.

IMO centre channels are only good for when the stereo pair are far away from the TV.

[metallica50]

"IMO centre channels are only good for when the stereo pair are far away from the TV."

they are, and I meant that when i disconnect the Center Channel it sounds better, not when i send the Center info to the Fronts. it doesnt sound good doing that.

[SeanL]

Finding a good center channel speaker is something of an art. When you have a good one, the entire front soundstage should blend together.
You might be tempted to run without a center channel, but in the long run it will sound better having the center speaker. You mentioned that it sounded better when you unplugged the center channel.
What you can do, is if the MTX speakers you use are video shielded, just get an extra one and use it as the center speaker.

[SeanL]

There's something I forgot to ask. Is your audio system Pro Logic or 5.1?

If it's Pro Logic you could get away with losing the center speaker. Many PL receivers have a setting called "phantom" that simulates a center speaker. If you're running a 5.1 setup then even a bad center channel speaker will be better than none at all. Any soundtrack info that is intended for the center would not be heard.

This may be info you're quite aware of, if so, just ignore me.

[metallica50]

I've got a 5.1 reciever.
JVC, well dont have the model handy. it was as I remember it, the one below their flagship a couple years ago.
and i have an extra MTX, but it isnt shielded. and its huge. i dont think it'll fit on or below the tv.
guess Im just complaining too much.

[RaceTripper]

It helps to have matched speakers all around. I also have my center under the TV, yet I don't experience what you do. But I have speakers that are all the same brand and line, so they are very well balanced between each other, and I spent a lot on them to get excellent overall quality.

Also you might not have the right balance set. You could try backing off a few db on the center, and maybe increasing the rears a few db.

I don't know anything about the MTX speakers, but if they are on the low end, it may be you'll be stuck with the effect you describe until you go with a higher quality setup. And that could be the difference between us. Sort of the old adage, you get what you pay for. If you spend $500 on speakers you can't get what a $5000 set will bring.

[metallica50]

yeah, I know you get what you pay for.

what are you running dwette?
with your center, presuming it is a regular center channel, does it sound like a center channel? or does it sound exactly like the rest of your system? even if the channel is timbre matched with the rest of the system, I can always hear the center channel standing out from the rest of the channels, instead of blending together (like in a movie theater, you can't tell that, for example, the dialogue comes from this channel, the effects come from this channel, etc. it just sounds more cohesive. of course, they probably spent a little more on their system than I did on mine.)

[RaceTripper]

Originally Posted by metallica50

yeah, I know you get what you pay for.

what are you running dwette?
with your center, presuming it is a regular center channel, does it sound like a center channel? or does it sound exactly like the rest of your system? even if the channel is timbre matched with the rest of the system, I can always hear the center channel standing out from the rest of the channels, instead of blending together (like in a movie theater, you can't tell that, for example, the dialogue comes from this channel, the effects come from this channel, etc. it just sounds more cohesive. of course, they probably spent a little more on their system than I did on mine.)

Receiver: Arcam AVR200 (DD5.1, DTS)
Speakers: Dynaudio
Front: Audience 72
Center: Audience 122C
Reaer: Audience 62
Sub: Audience SUB-30A
Cable/Interconnects: Transparent Cable

My room is 14' x 22' x 8.5'

The center is a true center (version of the Audience 122 tower), so it's shielded (though not an issue for my DLP).

Everything sounds very well blended. When I play a DD or DTS sound source it sounds better than anything I hear in theaters. No speaker stands out in particular and the soundstage is even across the front and to the rear. But I spend about $5K just on the speakers.

You can check out the line of Dynaudio speakers at Dynaudio USA, but they don't come cheap and they need good equipment to drive them properly at their 4 Ohm rating.

[metallica50]

well at 5FRIGGINK they better sound pretty damn good.
that's a hell of a system you got there.
anyone with a lower budgeted HT know what I'm talking about?

[wynterfire]

i know what you're talking about (at least i think). the issue i had with my center was that it sounded along the lines like a transistor radio speaker ...not really full like the other speakers, kinda like there was NO bass response and very little midrange to the speaker, only the higher end of an EQ band. is that what you're experiencing?

i have a kenwood HTIB ($400.00) that has a VR-407 receiver and the whole 5.1 speaker package.

now my problem with my front sound stage was that the mains are mid sized bookshelfs (15" tall) and the center about the same dimensions as the fronts, BUT the mains had 2 4" drivers and a 3" horn in between them while the center only had 1 4" driver ...and that was it. so there was a HUGE lack of balance to the center as there was only one 4" driver smack dab in the middle of a 15" long cabinet. it sounded like a sort of spacial void of sound in the distance between the mains and the center as well as the transistory sound of the center (the timbre of the center was awful compared to the mains ...like i said, think pink noise from a transistor radio).

now i upgraded my center to an Axiom VP100 (for $190.00 at their outlet store) that had the same speaker placement as my mains and it made a MASSIVE difference. granted the freq. response was wider and the speakers are much higher quality (aluminum woofers as opposed to paper), but the fact that the speakers were placed symmetrically in the cabinet made the world of difference and balanced the front stage much nicer. i suggest you try them (Axiom that is), i wasn't dissapointed and they have a 30 day money back guarantee PLUS free shipping.

does this clarify your issue?

[SeanL]

If your frequency ranges differ alot, you may have a hole in your bass frequency response, which could bring attention to the center channel. You might want to check what the crossover setting of your sub is set at.
For sake of argument, lets say the freq. response of your center speaker is 90hz-20,000hz, your mains: 60hz-20,000hz, and the sub's crossover is set to 80hz. With that setting, every signal 80hz and below will get sent to the sub. Well, your center channel only goes down to 90hz. That difference will result in a frequency dead spot. If you have an adjustable crossover setting, set it to cover the speaker/s with the highest (low end) freq number. That might not make any difference, but it can't hurt.

Also, you might want to fiddle with some more placement options before ponying up for another center channel speaker. Try angling your center speaker to where it aims right at your seating position. Next, check to see where the center speaker sits in relation to the mains. The guideline is that the tweeters in your mains should be right around ear level when you are seated. The center channel should not be more than 12-14 inches (up or down) from the tweeters in the mains. Don't measure diagonally from the L/R speaker over to where the center channel is sitting. Just measure up or down (depending on whether your center speaker is on top of the tv or below it). If it is more than 12 or 14", then it can become detached from the front soundstage, drawing attention to itself.

I hope this helps.

[metallica50]

"i know what you're talking about (at least i think). the issue i had with my center was that it sounded along the lines like a transistor radio speaker ...not really full like the other speakers, kinda like there was NO bass response and very little midrange to the speaker, only the higher end of an EQ band. is that what you're experiencing?"

thats pretty much exactly what I was experiencing. not that bad, of course, as the JBL is a bit better than the HTIB center i'm thinking, but that's along the lines of what I was hearing.
My Mains and Rears (same speaker) go down to (they say) 27hz, and they've got a huge port on the back, so in my room I could probably get em even lower than that. the JBL (they say) goes down to 75hz, but when placed on top of the TV, virtually loses all bass response. so I place it below, closer to the floor, and it probably goes down that far. Crossover on the reciever is set to 80hz. I have a JBL PB10 with the LFE switch on, turning the subs XO off. The sub sits off to the side of the Front soundstage, in between the L and C speakers. phase set to 0.

Ive tried somethings that helped:
placing the speaker under the TV on a stand does give me more bass. Center channels are always a compromise (IMO i guess.) because whenever you place a speaker off the floor (or close to it) I think it loses alot of bass response. I put one of those MTX suckers on top of the TV just for kicks, and all of that monsterous bass was completely gone. am I right about that?
also I had my mains set to LARGE as were the REARS. and center to SMALL, so i changed them all to small XO at 80hz, and it blended better that way. but aren't I putting strain on the sub to handle all that bass, plus the LFE? I dont wanna start hearing it wheezing and bottoming out when I play action movies.

[PunkMunkey]

Have you tried calibrating your speaker levels? I didn't see this option mentioned yet and IMO it's VERY important to have the actual levels matched so that one speaker doesn't "stand out"more than any other...perhaps in your case the center speaker signal is a bit "hot" or "cranked up" this could explain why its standing out to you ...maybe you need to get an SPL meter and set the sound levels before considering getting new speakers or anything equally drastic...

[metallica50]

ive got an SPL, and I've calibrated. everything to 75.

[SeanL]

If I understand you correctly, its the lack of bass response that your are most concerned with. On my system, I have all my speakers set to small, and I don't notice a lack of bass anywhere. Whenever there's an explosion or anything, you can't tell where the bass is coming from, it sounds like its coming from everywhere. You've got your sub placed in a good spot (or what is ordinarily a good spot), but maybe your sub doesn't have the oomph necessary. How far apart are your mains from each other? Maybe your sub is too far away, coupled with the fact that it might not be a very powerful unit?

Also...
Don't worry about your sub being able to handle all the bass. In 5.1 soundtracks, most of the bass is meant specifically for the LFE channel anyway. Most sound mixers don't direct lots of bass to the other channels.

[metallica50]

yeah, it was lack of bass from the JBL, which they state can go down to 75hz. but I wasnt getting any bass on top of the TV. but since I moved it under it on a stand, it sounds a hell of a lot better.
about the PB10, its not THAT powerful, but it does okay. I might get me an SVS one day.

[Iguana Man]

You've got a center that doesn't sound anything like your mains. I would get the MTX Monitor 6C, or if you really want your center to have more "meat" get one of the Monitor 6's for your center. At least they have matching tweeters.

Just my 2 cents !