Now I'm Getting Nervous...

[brttlt]

...about my purchase. After reading even a lot of old threads regarding all the different ratios, the burnouts, the right cables...
Do I now need to hire an outside person to come in and calibrate my new TV? I bought the Panasonic 50" DLP #PT-50LC13 that hit me for $3000 and I'm going to drop some more $$$ on a new Progressive DVD. I can't afford another $300 for someone to come out and "calibrate" this beast!
Whoa, this is crazy!

[snipsnapsappy]

No you will be fine, I just need you to understand that your TV is LCD not DLP. Unless you have some TV no one knows about.

LCD does not have as bad of a problem with burn in that CRT does, and when you are watching 4:3 material in 4:3 mode without stretching, the gray bars on the side will not allow burn in to occur.

Please relax, you are going to be fine. You will not need to get a calibrator. Please get the Digital Video Essentials disc, though. It will take you very far in setting up your system.

By the way, do you have a surround sound system yet? Because the most difficult set up procedures are for audio. Video ones are not too big of a deal.

[I 8 Piglet]

I have to agree with Snipp, you dont have to worry much about burn in with an LCD (or DLP) TV. And you deffinatly dont need to spend $500 on ISF. Just get your self a copy of Avia or VE, and youll be just fine.

[brttlt]

oh yeah. I've had my surround sound for about 3 years now so I understand that setup

This is the tv I bought Panasonic 50" PT50LC13.
I could have sworn it was DLP, but on the website, it really doesn't say!

[brttlt]

I stand corrected. I looked on the Circuit City website where I bought it and it says LCD.

Where do i find the Digital Video Essential disc and how much $$$?
Thanks

[I 8 Piglet]

here ya go

[brttlt]

thanks guys. I can't wait for this Tv to be delivered. Nobody had it in stock so I have to wait a week. Supposedly the trucks arrive Wednesday which mean they'll deliver it Thurs/Fri. Of my DVD's I don't whicch I want to to watch first though. (probably LOTR ot Episode I)

I'm sure once I get it all I'll have more questions!

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by I 8 Piglet

And you deffinatly dont need to spend $500 on ISF.

You make it sound like ISF calibration is a "bad" thing or something....

I'm not sure how calibration with DLP, LCD, or Plasma displays differs from calibration of CRT-based displays. With CRT-based displays, the ISF techs have external devices they use to calibrate Grayscale, etc., and don't perform the calibration via "eyeball" only, which is what we do when use use Avia or (Digital) Video Essentials, etc.

Peace.....

[snipsnapsappy]

Getting an ISF guy to come out would be cool, but when you are pinching pennies enough as it is, it is hard to justify $500 on something that honestly can not change a set up that much. If you are spending ridiculous amount son your theater, than I would say get the ISF done twice a year, but if you are a college student on a tight budget who thinks he can do most calibrating on his own, then ISF seems like a little much. I am sure it would be cool to be able to afford it though.

[littlebib]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

and don't perform the calibration via "eyeball" only, which is what we do when use use Avia or (Digital) Video Essentials, etc.

But if they need external devices because your eyeball can't see the difference, then is the $500 really worth spending? Now keep in mind, I'm someone who doesn't really believe that $200 cable actually will give a better picture than a $30 cable (I can believe there's a difference to a $2 cable though)

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by littlebib

But if they need external devices because your eyeball can't see the difference, then is the $500 really worth spending?

If speaking about CRT-based rear-projection TVs, most definitely as a full ISF calibration covers a lot of stuff. As I indicated earlier, I'm not sure how calibration of DLP, LCD, or Plasma displays differs from CRT-based display calibration. Maybe the LCD, DLP, or Plasma displays don't need as much "work"or they need different kinds of work.

In this thread:

"Meet the Experts": Mr Bob Jones - ISF calibrator and HDTV expert

you can read info from a real ISF tech and learn more about the kinds of work he does to CRT-based rear-projection sets.

In some cases, ISF calibration can run $1000 or more, depending on what is done and how much is done.

Peace....

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by snipsnapsappy

Getting an ISF guy to come out would be cool, but when you are pinching pennies enough as it is, it is hard to justify $500 on something that honestly can not change a set up that much.

The part about "pinching pennies" I agree with wholeheartedly. That's partly why I haven't had my set ISF calibrated, it's just too expensive for me right now. However, to say it "honestly can not change a setup that much" really depends on how "bad" the set is and how much work the ISF tech needs to do to it.

I've read TONS of threads on Home Theater SPot where people who own TVs like mine (Toshiba 57HX81) and other brands comparable to mine post feedback of how "night and day" the difference was. They were impressed with their set's performance before the ISF calibration and were absolutely floored with the results afterward as they had NO IDEA of what they were actually missing, even with the same hardware they had before the calibration.

Again, the question is how does ISF calibration relate to LCD, DLP, or Plasma displays and how effective is professional calibration on those displays.

Peace...

[snipsnapsappy]

I know that my CRT set has massive oversca, I do not have the test patterns to find out exactly how much, but I know the overscan is pretty bad. I would love to learn how to get rid of it, but I do not think the picture is anywhere near unwatchable without it. It is especially not worth $500-1000.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by snipsnapsappy

I know that my CRT set has massive oversca, I do not have the test patterns to find out exactly how much, but I know the overscan is pretty bad. I would love to learn how to get rid of it, but I do not think the picture is anywhere near unwatchable without it.

My Toshiba 57HX81 has 5% overscan (according to Avia) and I simply love the video performance I get from it WITHOUT having ISF calibration. Cost is prohibiting me from getting ISF calibration. However, that doesn't mean I'm getting every bit of performance out of my TV even though I'm totally happy with it. One of the things my set could definitely benefit from is a simple internal cleaning. You've all read the story about the spider I saw on the INSIDE of my screen, so I'm sure there's a ton of dust and other stuff inside. For all I know, the CRTs could be dirty and cleaning those might improve the picture as well. Here are some things "Mr Bob" does during one of his calibration packages:

For calibrations, I charge travel plus $485 for the basic calibration package on your designated primary scanrate, $235 for each additional scanrate, and various extra charges if extras are needed. The basic cal package covers basic optics cleaning; both kinds of focussing - including the Cantilever Technique, which I wrote; - fully redone geometry - to take in the everpresent overscan, restoring the lost picture area you can't see OOB and improving the resolution markedly; high precision convergence - employing all the tricks I have learned over the years; complete D6500K grayscale; color decoder analysis - and help with your tweaking if you have installed your own attenuator for red push; and recentering of your user settings, including precision setting of the Brightness - also known as Black Level - for the look and feel of 35mm film.

That was from the link I posted above. There is more going on here than simply adjusting overscan.

As for adjusting the overscan yourself, you could give it a try if you can access the service menu of your TV and are extremely careful. Personally, I have NOT done this nor will I try. Others have and will encourage people to go ahead and do it.

ISF calibration isn't for everyone, especially given the cost, but that's different then questioning the "need" for it. For the record, the above description from "Mr Bob" applies to CRT-based TV calibration and not LCD, DLP, or Plasma. I don't know how calibration of these technology TVs differs from CRT-based calibration.

Peace...

[I 8 Piglet]

Originally Posted by tomdkat

You make it sound like ISF calibration is a "bad" thing or something....

I didnt mean that at all. I just think that compared to a good calabration disc, ISF is more expensive that it is worth for the average HT owner.

As for getting an LCD or DLP tv (or PJ for that matter) Im no expert but I would assume that only having one lense as a opsed to three, dramaticly reduces the need for professional training and equipment.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by I 8 Piglet

I didnt mean that at all. I just think that compared to a good calabration disc, ISF is more expensive that it is worth for the average HT owner.

Based on the feedback I've read, I think a LOT of people think the same way... that is until they've seen the results. I can't believe the differences people are seeing. Based on the enthusiasm in their posts, it would be as if their TV viewing experience went from watching Fifth Element on their 20" analog TV to watching it on your front projection system.

I think the value of ISF calibration is definitely there, but it's just too damned expensive for the "average" HT owner and the calibrations we can do with DVE or Avia are "good enough" to suit our needs.

As for getting an LCD or DLP tv (or PJ for that matter) Im no expert but I would assume that only having one lense as a opsed to three, dramaticly reduces the need for professional training and equipment.

I'm sure having one lense definitely changes the process of professional calibration, but the "need"? I'm not sure.... We can use DVE or Avia to set grayscale levels as best as we can by "eyeballing" it, but that's a difference process than using a color temperature meter to calibrate grayscale levels more accurately, etc., etc....

I really haven't read enough feedback from LCD, DLP, Plasma TV or PJ (respectively) owners to know how professional calibration changes with these technology displays. I guess that's the current "assignment" for me.... Conversely, unless we have more info we really can't say these technology displays don't "need" professional calibration either.

Peace...

[snipsnapsappy]

After going through the forums at AVS and The Spot, I found out how to access my service menus. I also got a print out that told me how to do it. Although, It was still way too confusing and I almost screwed some stuff up. I got to a menu that has test patterns, and they were way off center. It makes me wonder, why am I not allowed to do these changes with my TV without having to spend a fortune on an ISF technician?

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by snipsnapsappy

It makes me wonder, why am I not allowed to do these changes with my TV without having to spend a fortune on an ISF technician?

Well, I don't think you need an ISF tech to perform the calibration, but if you're gonna have a professional do it, it should be an ISF tech. Kind of like progressive scan DVD players. You don't need a Faroudja equipped progressive scan DVD player to produce progressive video output, but if you want the BEST progressive scan output you should seek out a player with a Faroudja or Silicon Image de-interlacer.

I think the service menu is "hidden" from non-trained people so they won't screw up the TV by mistake. If you make the wrong change, you can render the set NOT viewable at all and I don't know what the cost is to fix it. Just like how ISF calibration isn't for everyone, performing calibrations from the service menu isn't for everyone.

As for spending the "fortune", you're spending the money for much MORE than just knowing how to access the geometry grid. You're paying for their knowledge and expertise and, most importantly, their experience with these kinds of components. Sure you can do a 56-pt convergence and align the geometry as best as you can but that's not to say the results will match what an ISF tech can do, especially if they know your particular set well and know of other things to do, which you won't know, to obtain the optimum performance from your TV.

Yes, ISF calibration can be expensive and in most cases it's prohibitively expensive. This is much different than questioning the "value" of having the display professionally calibrated. I've also been scouring threads at AVS Forum and Home Theater SPot to read what others had to say about ISF calibration on their LCD or other "fixed pixel" displays and Im finding, generally speaking, that ISF calibration hasn't been "ruled out" as a general consensus. I'll post more later after I've had a chance to digest what I've found thus far as well as finding MORE pertinent threads.

I doubt brttlt would be very interested in getting ISF calibration, at this point, since he's still trying to find a progressive scan DVD player to "mate" with his new Panasonic LCD HDTV. He's asking about it since he's read other discussion about it. It's great that he's aware of ISF calibration and knows he can have it done later on, if he so desires, but that's not to say he doesn't "need it". We don't know what his "needs" are and for all we know the absolute MAXIMUM performance from his TV might be something he "needs". Conversely, if he doesn't get maximum performance from his set but enough performance to make his and his family's jaws drop, more power to him. Like I've said before, I'm very happy with the performance of my Toshiba 57HX81, which has NOT been calibrated by anyone except me, Chromy, and 1138. Does that mean I'm getting the "most" out of my set? Nope. If I accessed the service menu and "tuned" the set myself, would I get the "most" out of my set? Probably not but I might see an improvement over what I have now (provided I don't screw anything up... ).

If you're comfortable accessing the service menu and performing those tasks yourself, that's great. If you're ok with the risk involved, you've got more guts than I. Does that mean ISF calibration isn't worthwhile? Nope, not at all.....

Peace....

[snipsnapsappy]

Do not worry, I am not going back into the service menu, it scared me.

[tomdkat]

Originally Posted by snipsnapsappy

Do not worry, I am not going back into the service menu, it scared me.

Out of curiosity, I accessed my service menu ONCE on my set and got scared and left immediately...



Peace...

[chipmac]

Hey guys I haven't been back in while since works keeping me busy but I'd like to comment on this ISF thing. I'll say right up front that I agree with Tomkat on everything he's said here on the subject.

Now for my opinions. Every set sent from the factory is going to be setup differently in number of areas so even if you chose which TV to buy from making a judgement based on what you saw in the store the one they ship you might not match it at all. So now you've got it home and you're not happy with the picture so what do you do? You can call the store and take your chances on an exchange, you can call for a tech to come out and try to fix it but he'll likely say it's in spec, or you can try getting the info to tweak it yourself, and finally you can get it professionally calibrated. IMO buying a digital HDTV is a lot different than it used to be when we bought analog TVs since these HDTVs are more computer than TV and since they're high definition they show every flaw that was never noticed before.

Now when I bought my 55" Mits I found the Spot which has a very large forum dedicated to tweaking Mits TVs to look their best. I studied these tweaks for months and then when I felt comfortable I dove in one weekend and did everything all at once. I was very happy with my PQ when I bought it and let me say that when I was done tweaking I noticed a very big improvement. Without going into to much detail I'll list the tweaks I did. I started by removing the screen so I could take off the lens barrels to clean the factory dirt left in there. I found wood chips, bugs dust, you name it I found it in the lens barrels. While I was in there I lined the inside of the cabinet with a material called Duvutyne which eliminates internal reflections of light. I put the lenses back and I put the screen back on without the protective shield to remove the glare. With the lenses and the screen back on I next did a manual focus and the electrical focus.

Now it was time to enter the service menu. I adjusted my overscan to 4.5% all around and this makes a dramatic improvement because if your overscan is too much the stretch modes are stretching more than they should and the scan lines are spread farther than they should be. By doing this simple step I improved the stetch modes and tightened the scan lines which decreases jaggies and gives a more filmlike picture rather than a TV picture with lines. Next I made sure the convergence grid was evenly spaced and smoothed out any grid lines that weren't completely straight. To make sure these changes didn't muck up what I did earlier I rechecked the focus and fine tuned it.

Now I had done the basic Avia cal when I bought the TV so I pulled it out again and redid the cal but this time I also adjusted my Gamma as well as the basics. When I was done I popped in the DVD of Training Day and I thought I was watching a HD feed it look that good.

Now I feel I did a very good job and I know it could be done better by a pro. I probably did everything a normal calibration consists of with the exception of greyscale which is very difficult to do by eye and needs expensive equiptment to do right. Anyone can try to make something look grey but is it the right shade of grey and that's what's important to a great looking picture.

So after all this I feel I'm as close as can be without hiring a pro and I still wish I could afford to just to get that greyscale nailed and know it's running at it's peak and greyscale is they most important thing to have set correctly. I have an eye for greyscale from my DTP background so I know mine is close but not 100%.

Now most people would have been more than happy with the way it was delivered but when I got done with mine it doesn't look like it just came from the store anymore like every other TV. Now others come by me and ask why their's doesn't look that good. So you really don't know how far off your picture is until you've tweaked it or had it calibrated. You can buy a nice sports car but until you tune it up and add some after market goodies to it you don't really know how it can perfom.

I should mention that all of this took me two days to do on top of the 3 months of studying the tweaks. So when you hire a pro to do it you're also paying to have it done right and in a much shorter amount of time. You're paying for his skill and experience that we lack. If you find value in his service then what's $500 when you dropped $3000 on a TV. Some people drop that $500 on an extended warranty and never use it so there is no value. I did it because I wanted to and I felt I could but I still want a pro cal done. Not everyone will feel comfortable doing the things I did and should hire a pro if they want to make sure it's done right.

[Iguana Man]

LCD - Avia or the new Digital Video Essentials. I think for now, if you purchase the DVE disc and calibrate you tv, you'll be fine. It's easier to calibrate the LCD's (at least my LCD front projector was), than most others (CRT's, etc..) from what I've seen. Anyway, for 30 or 40 bucks, you should get great results. Then, later on when the videophile in you arises, save up and go for a professional calibration.

That's MY 2 cents !

PS. I can't wait to your setup in the "Your Home Theater" forum.