Buying Speakers – Need Advice (aka Help A Noob)

[Bonehead]

I’m ready to buy speakers to complete my home theater and would like advice from the knowledgeable gearheads around here. I already own a Denon AVR-3802 receiver which I purchased a few months back in a unique deal too good to pass up. I haven’t actually used the Denon yet, it’s still in it’s factory packaging.

These are the speakers I’m looking at:

4 x B&W DM602 S3 (two fronts, two rears)
2 x B&W LCR600 S3 (front center, rear center)
1 x Yamaha YST-SW1500 sub

1. Is the Denon + B&W + Yamaha a good combo? Any comments on any of these components, either positive or negative?

2. Obviously I’m going for 6.1 by purchasing two LCR600s. Is 6.1 really necessary? What does 6.1 really buy me (besides one extra speaker)? Are there any 6.1 converts around here who wouldn’t go back to 5.1? If that’s the case, should I consider 7.1?

3. B&W speakers can be bi-wired. What exactly does this mean and how do I do it with the Denon receiver? Any specific cable recommendations for bi-wiring?

[snipsnapsappy]

1) I would have to recommend Internet direct companies for speaker purchases. These companies have better products, better prices, and better sevice than the brick and mortar stores.

Here are some of the websites:

www.axiomaudio.com

www.rocketloudspeakers.com

I own the Axioms and know for a fact they are incredible speakers. The customer service from Axiom is mindblowingly good, too.

Here is a review that directly compares Axiom M80s to a B&W 602 setup:
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...o_Epic80c.html
The reviewer obviously prefers the Axioms since he got rid of his B&W's for the superior, and less expensive Axiom setup. Yes he is reviewing large speakers against bookshelves, but the M22 speakers, which are boookshelves, have the same exact sound as the ones he reviewed, the towers just produce more bass and do it louder.

And for subwoofers, there is no comparison, check out these companies:

www.hsuresearch.com

www.svsubwoofers.com

They are by far the best subs in their price range. And the companies completely take care of you. They will kill any Yamaha or B&W sub in their price range.

2) 6.1 is worth it if you can afford the extra speaker. I also would not recommend using a center speaker for your rear surround. Center speakers are inferior speakers because of their horizontal axis and should only be used if on top of a TV. You should use a speaker that is either identical to your side surrounds, or is a direct reflecting speaker that has the same sound as your fronts.

3) Bi wiring is not necessary. It can allow better results on a very miniscule scale, but it is unlikely anyone can hear the difference between whether or not your speakers are biwired or not.

[mrkeeling]

I am going to repeat what was said many, many times when speakers purchase is a topic – listen, listen, listen!

Selecting the right speakers is the most personal thing of all home theatre equipment.
My advice is grab your favorite CD/DVD/DVD-a/SACD, go around and listen. I suggest small, boutique type audio stores – they usually have proper setups that CAN provide meaningful listening. Narrow your list to 2-3 speaker setups that you really like and can afford and than, if anyhow possible, get all 2-3 setups to your house in your room to be powered with your receiver/amp. THEN Listen again, make a final decision and keep the ones you like the best.

B&W is well respected speaker brand and brands that Snip suggested are famous for their great bang for buck. But don’t base your decision on how famous the speaker brand is or what other people think. Get the speakers that sound best to YOU!

As far as bi-wiring goes, how much will you gain with it depends highly on speaker quality and design of its internal network. It can definitely provide meaningful sonic advantages (without much of a cost). You can use the same speaker wire for both networks, but usually best results are gained if you use lower gauge (thicker) wire for low frequency network.
Of course, the lower the quality of your speaker wire is, the less (if any) of a difference will you be able to hear. This doesn’t mean that you have to have an exotic (and ridiculously expensive) speaker wire. A decent one with proper gauge for you distance can prove to be very satisfying.

Here is the simple scheme on how to bi-wire one pair of speakers (be sure to remove any kontacts between Hi/mid and low frequency binding posts on the speakers:

[I 8 Piglet]

I have to disagree with Snip, B&M stores can have very, very high quality products, and some can even have spectacular customer service (although not likely in a big chain store). The benifits of companys like Axiom and Rocket is that you get that you get the quality and service for a better price.

B&W is fine speaker, and from what I understand you can now get the 602s at a good price with the next gerneration now out, or coming out soon.

I personally plan to bi-wire my speakers when I upgrade my audio. Whether you will hear the differnce no one can really say, its one of those things that you need to go and hear for yourself (another benifit of the B&Ws is that you can find them in a store pretty easily).

I do agree that that you can do better than the Yamaha sub.

Aswell, I agree that you should not get a center channel speaker for the rear. There is no need, for reasons already mentioned, plus they tend to cost more, so its a waste of money, and when you eventually upgrade to 7.1 you will most likly want 4 matching speakers in the rear, so why not by one now that you will use then.

And I definatly agree with MrKeeling that what ever you buy you must listen to various speakers before you purchase, you can not rely on the recomendations of others. (From what I understand Axiom, has a wonderful return policy that allows you to, in effect, demo them in your home.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Bonehead

Denon AVR-3802 receiver which I purchased a few months back in a unique deal too good to pass up. I haven?t actually used the Denon yet, it?s still in it?s factory packaging.

Great receiver.

Originally Posted by Bonehead

These are the speakers I?m looking at:

4 x B&W DM602 S3 (two fronts, two rears)
2 x B&W LCR600 S3 (front center, rear center)
1 x Yamaha YST-SW1500 sub

In my opinion, nice, real nice. However, have you listened to them yet? If not, see Mr. Keelings response. It's the cardinal rule of buying speakers my friend. Again, my opinion, but do not spend the extra cash for the surrounds you've listed (put the money towards a better sub, you won't regret it). Like others have mentioned, and unless you've got the right room, spend less for the surrounds. If you're hellbent on B&W's, check out the LM1's - I use them, I think for the pair they're cheaper, and they have adjustability (swivel base for fine tuning directionality). The sub.....scrap the Yamy'. I've found a good, high output sub that's clean, tight, and powerfull will make the biggest difference in your HT. Check out the ones already suggested, and don't forget Velodyne. Yes, I'm partial to Velo's - I own the SPL-1200. Again, get a good sub.

Originally Posted by Bonehead

1. Is the Denon + B&W + Yamaha a good combo? Any comments on any of these components, either positive or negative?

Yes, they are both high quality but the Yamy' doesn't belong with them (IMHO).

Originally Posted by Bonehead

2. Obviously I?m going for 6.1 by purchasing two LCR600s. Is 6.1 really necessary? What does 6.1 really buy me (besides one extra speaker)? Are there any 6.1 converts around here who wouldn?t go back to 5.1? If that?s the case, should I consider 7.1?

I'm still 5.1, so I cant answer. However, if your into SACD and/or DVD Audio, I think 7.1 is what your after...Mr. Keeling ?????

Originally Posted by Bonehead

3. B&W speakers can be bi-wired. What exactly does this mean and how do I do it with the Denon receiver? Any specific cable recommendations for bi-wiring?

I think bi-wiring these speakers is a toss up. I think bi-wiring benifits "full range" speakers, but I could be wrong.....again, Mr. Keeling?

Bottom line is, you've picked out a good system, assuming you upgrade the sub. And I think snippy, when he mentioned the brick and mortar joints, was refering to the Best Buy, Circuit City type stores, not the real audio/video shops. Those are where I suggest you go since you seem to want more than what BB & CC have to offer. And that's not to say you can't get good stuff from those stores, it's just that I've got a sense you've already ruled them out based on your suggested setup. Hey, have fun auditioning and spend some time doing it......afterall, it's your hard earned bucks, not ours

[snipsnapsappy]

To me, one of the big diiferenced between Axiom and other brick and mortar stores is how they treat you. Axiom tells you to try out other brands against theirs. They want you to. That way you are not unsatisfied with your purchase. Because, if the Axiom sound is for you, you will likely be blown away by thier quality for their price.

Yes, speaker sound is objective, but I personally prefer sound that is realistic and revealing of the source material. I believe a guitar should sound like a guitar and a womans voice should dound like a womans voice. Axiom speakers are very accurate sounding speakers with a lot of detail. With Axiom, you do not just hear the guitar, you hear the fingers sliding on the guitar along with it. Axiom speakers are like HDTV's. With them, you really learn which CDs and DVD's are recorded well. Similar to how, when you get an HDTV, you really learn about which titles have really good transfers. With many other speakers, they do not have as much detail so that poor recordings still sound okay.

But I would personally recommend getting a pair of Axioms and a pair of B&W's in your home and do a side by side comparison. That way you will know exactly what speakers are right for you.

It also looks like those B&W's will have limited midrange. When a bookshelf speaker has that large of a woofer, it will tend to have more highs and bass than highs and midrange. Because you will have a sub, the ability for a bookshelf to produce notes lower than 60Hz is uneccesary. You want a bookshelf to produce all the frequencies between 60Hz and 22kHz accurately. I am guessing that the B&W 602's will have difficulty with the midrange while the M22's produce that midrange flawlessly. Although the 602's will likely have more bass, that will not be necessary because the sub will take over below 80Hz.

I could be wrong, but that is what I would guess with the looks of the speaker. It looks similar to the Axiom M3, which has more bass, but less midrange than the M22.

[Bonehead]

Thanks for all the input.

Based on the feedback I'll think I'll stick with B&W. I have listened to them in the store and I thought they sounded great. As far as price goes, the Axiom M22s are $400/pair while I can get the B&W DM602 S3s from my local brick and mortar for slightly less than that.

The Yammy sub is out. Of all the components that was the one I felt most uneasy about. Thanks for the confirmation.

Thanks also for the info about a center speaker being unsuitable as a rear center channel, I was completely unaware of that. I think what I'll do instead is purchase an extra pair of DM602 S3s and go with a 7.1 configuration. So the new speaker configuration looks like this:

6 x B&W DM602 S3 (two front FX, two rear FX, two rear centers)
1 x B&W LCR600 S3 (front center)
1 x ?? Sub

Oh, and thanks mrkeeling for the bi-wiring diagram.

[SilentBob]

Check out the ones already suggested, and don't forget Velodyne. Yes, I'm partial to Velo's - I own the SPL-1200. Again, get a good sub.

Have to agree with Iguana Man. I too am a Velodyne owner and would recommend them to anyone. I don't think i have heard the Yamaha Sub you are talking about but i did hear some last year when i was shopping around and they didn't really work for me.

My area just place my sub onsale for the week and might be happening state side as well. My CHT-8 sub is only $300 now instead of its regular $500 Cnd. Can't beat the price.


As for speakers. I saw you have Denon for your receiver and if you can i would get some Mission Speakers for it. Mission is supossibly a sub division speaker compnay of Denon itself. So you would think they would work out nicely together. I have a pari of M70i Mission speakers and work nicely as my front mains. I have moved them to my surrounds as i was able to get some $450 JBL N28 II speakers for $200 a few weeks ago (couldn't pass it up) They aren't bad either



Or you could get them as the big floor standing kind (M74)




Crrently i'm in the hunt (when i have the money) for a new Center Speaker and would love to see what Mission offers down the road.

[mrkeeling]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

I'm still 5.1, so I cant answer. However, if your into SACD and/or DVD Audio, I think 7.1 is what your after...Mr. Keeling ?????

--------

I think bi-wiring these speakers is a toss up. I think bi-wiring benifits "full range" speakers, but I could be wrong.....again, Mr. Keeling?

Actually it’s 5.1 (unless you are Chesky 6.0 fan).
If you want perfect SACD/DVD-a setup, you want five identical full range speakers (and a sub) positioned equidistant from your listening position as follows: FL – 30 degrees to the left from Centre position; SL – 110 degrees to the left and the same degrees to the right for FR and SR, all speakers aiming to the listening spot.
Now I do not know how many of us have a room that can actually accommodate this setup, not to mention how many of us have 5 identical full range speakers.
But if you want it ideal – this is it (and I can’t see it being ‘not good’ for movies).

Bi-wiring benefits all the speakers that have divided internal network.

[snipsnapsappy]

Although the Axioms are $400. That price includes tax and 2 day shipping. So remember to factor in tax at your local store into the price. When you are spending that much money, tax will amount to quite a few hundred dollars. Also, if you look at the surround speakers from Axiom. You will notice just from the design, they are far superior to the B&W as surrounds. I just hope you will try out some speakers before you completely commit to B&W. Trying out speakers using music you prefer is important. Many speakers will sound great when playing store demo discs. Only when you compare the sound of a speaker with different CDs and movies will you be able to truly tell if a speaker really sounds great. You will really need to ry speakers out or you will feel buyers remorse.

Remember, a lot of Bose customers end up with Bose because they just listen to Bose and do not try out other brands. When if they did, they would realize how inferior their sound is.

If B&W still wins out for you. Remember to try out some of the subs I recommended. I personally own a Velodyne (VLF-810) like Iguana man and Silent Bob. But the subs from HSU and SVS have been found to be superior musically to the Velodynes, and that is what is important in a sub. If a sub can reach down to 20Hz during movie explosions, the quality of sound is not as important. But when music needs the sub to move quickly and smoothly, that is where a sub can really shine.

[snipsnapsappy]

I think what Iguanaman meant by 7.1 for DVD-A and SACD is becuase many people with 7.1 use at least bipolar speakers on the sides and direct speakers in the rear. Since DVD-A and SACD are better with direct radiating surrounds, many people with 8 channel inputs in their reciever plug the surround channels from their DVD-A/SACD player into the back surround inputs in the reciever, thus bypassing the side surrounds and only using the direct radiating surrounds. An excellent trick if you have the ability to do it.

[snipsnapsappy]

Here is a great review between many speaker manufacturers:

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_a.php

It clearly votes the Axiom apeakers over the B&W's and they cost more.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by snipsnapsappy

Here is a great review between many speaker manufacturers:

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...faceoff3_a.php

It clearly votes the Axiom apeakers over the B&W's and they cost more.

With all due respect snip, they clearly state in the review that the B&W's were not one, but two generations back.....hardly fair imo.

"We realize that the DM602S1 is two generations old compared to B&W's current offering and have heard the S3 and S2 series in other systems before. They are a marked improvement over the S1's,"

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by Bonehead

1 x ?? Sub

Oh, and thanks mrkeeling for the bi-wiring diagram.

How much moolah you wanna spend? You'll get a lot of SVS, HSU, Paradigm, and Velodyne suggestions. If you're handy, do-it-yourself subs come into play too.

And MrKeeling knows his stuff

How big is the room? How much can you shell out? These questions are important and need answers . (then again, I'll probably recommend the Velodyne SPL-1200 anyways, or better yet, one of their new digital subs )

[Bonehead]

Well, I bought the speakers yesterday afternoon. I picked up 3 pairs of DM602 S3s and 1 LCR600 S3. Total price was $1400 cash (the DM602s were $360/pr and the LCR600 was $320/ea, no tax). So now I've got the "7" but not a ".1"

Based on the feedback in this thread I decided against the Yammy sub. I will look at the other suggestions, notably Velodyne and SVS, but that will have to wait until I get back from Thailand.

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

How big is the room?

As vague as this is gonna sound, it's just an average-sized living room. (Translation: I don't know the exact dimensions ) Isn't it better to have a more powerful sub than you actually need? Are there any rule-of-thumb guidelines?