Order of speaker upgrades

[EM3]

Ok I was reading another forum today and I got to thinking since I am still planning to upgrade my speakers I was planning on doing the fronts including the center channel first, center, subwoofer and then surrounds. Would you make any changes to that order and if so why?

[firestorm]

Sounds like a good upgrade path to me. I did the center channel first, subwoofer, then front mains. My own mains were relegated to rears. Much was dictated by what I had at the time of each purchase.

The subwoofer was a DIY job to tied me over for a while, and only costed $300 ($200 + materials). Technically, that is last on the upgrade list, since I still have intentions to get the Rythmik Audio 15" kit (~$500 + materials). I was using 18 year old Fisher 3 ways, with 15" woofers, for LFE; had them laying down behind furniture. Those definately had to go.

Also, I believe my front mains (Paradigm Monitor 7 floorstanders) are good enough that I could have happily gone with a phantom center (center image is matrixed to the front mains, and no center speaker used). If the front mains you're interested in produce sufficient imaging, you might want to consider that option. Some argue that it's actually better, as the image would be centered horizontally and vertically in front of the video display, rather than coming from above or below the display (save transparent screens). The old Boston HD-8 bookshelves did not have nearly as good imaging, and lacked somewhat in the midrange. That's why I ended up with a new center first, aside from the lower cost for one speaker.

[zepplongfellow]

I too have struggled with this. When I upgraded from a Yamaha HTIB speakers and sub the first think I upgraded was the Sub. I bought a SVS-PB10. Then I bought my Athena .5 system to finish it off. Now I am going to upgrade again but not the sub. So for strictly speakers I am going to upgrade the Mains first with a bookshelf from the B&W 600 series new or gently used. Then a few months later after saving money up I will upgrade the center and keep my Athena for surrounds.
Reasoning:
I am upgrading the main for music listening. Then the center for front stage matching. I don't mind buy the center used because IMO it is hard to trash a center. I also fell my Athena's are adequate for the info the rear sound stage since not a whole lot of info goes there.
My advise is build it slowly like you are doing. Also listen to alot of speakers with your own listening material if the dealer will let you. I have considered using Internet direct for speakers and use there 30 in home listening period but that to me is pain in the ass to ship them back.
Also I don't plan to upgrade my sub until the amp fry's or driver breaks and out of warranty.

[SilentBob]

Well when i started to upgrade my RCA HTiB the first things i got were new Front L&R speakers, but as a Xmas gift. The next thing i needed was a new sub because the RCA one was a passive sub and not a powered one. I did an impulse buy for 2 more speakers which became my new Fronts and Xmas gift ones became my rear channel speakers. Sadly the last i upgraded was my Center channel and i kind o wished i had updated it before my rears but again they were and impuilse buy. I still need one for my Center Rear channel but if i get some money i might upgrade to the new Onkyo receiver this year and i would need 2 more speakers and who knows where they might turn up in the end.

[EM3]

Well I have decided on speaker choice and wished I could get floorstanders to run a phantom center but alas I am unable do to floor space. I plan on getting Klipsch RB 61's for the fronts and that includes placement of one on it's side to match the left and right. Can be seen here http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rb-61.aspx The reason being is because I have a small area to put a center channel and the only Klipsch that would fit would be the RC 10 and it's not big enough. Center channel here http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rc-10.aspx I have contacted Klipsch about doing this and they informed that placing the 3rd bookshelf on it's side would not produce any distortion so all front 3 will be perfectly timber matched. I am leaning toward the HSU VTF2 MK3 for the sub. Can be found here http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html I am going to have to rearrange a few things to make it fit.

The big unknown is do I keep my current HTiB surrounds or delegate the Onkyo fronts to the rear for new assignments. This would require a shelf for each speaker or buy these Klipsch rears http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rc-10.aspx

Yes I have heard the Klipsch and was sold on them almost instantly when I heard them as 2 channel speakers that sealed the deal. The sad part is I won't be able to get any speakers until the end of summer if all goes well.

[Iguana Man]

Are you sure you want to put a 3rd bookshelf on it's side as a center?

I wouldn't. But hey, that's me...and trust me, you don't wanna be me.

I'd consider the smaller driver RC-10 and just bump the volume via your avr.

[EM3]

Well I asked the same question on the Klipsch forum and one of their reps chimed in and said it could be done without any ill effects or sound distortion etc. I've thought about the RC 10 and just ramping it up. I mean the center channel on my Onkyo works pretty decent and it is smaller. I was kind of thinking about timber matching all 3 in the front stage and that is why I had that idea. Actually I wanted to use 5 RB 61's all the way around with the HSU sub but that is too costly.

Actually here is the reply I got "In a surround sound setup ideally you want the speakers to all blend with each other as perfectly as possible. In most surround setups, compromises are made in that area due to several reasons. The ideal setup would be to have 5 or 7 or however many speakers you need to be identical to each other.

That being said, you would have a very nice setup if you went with 5 RB-61 speakers. The horns on Klipsch speakers definitely give more detailed sound and certainly are a more efficient design so that allows your amplifier/receiver to not have to push as many watts through them to get them very loud.

If you're worried about the center channel, the RC-52 or 62 might be a good choice if you have space limitations and have to lay an RB-61 on its side." Both the 52 and 62 are too big and there is no way I am taking a saw to a new tv stand. I may have to take my chances. Oh yeah in case you are wondering I dropped the idea of using the 61's as rears. They would be too big to hang on the wall and like an idiot I didn't leave enough wire to set them on stands.

[Iguana Man]

Interesting reply. Well, if he's a Klipsch rep' then I guess that's that, but when I look at the horns in the RB61, it seems the design is for an upright setup, not on it's side. Looking at their dedicated centers, they too have the same type horn layout so you are clearly turning that layout 90degrees one way or another.

I gotta believe that changes things but hey, maybe it's really no different than me suggesting the smaller RC10.

[EM3]

Well I keep asking around to see what others say. I am sure opinions will vary. I wonder if I am just trying to complicate things?

[EM3]

See what happens when you ask questions!

"The RB-61 has 1" Titanium diaphragm compression
driver mated to 90x60 square Tractrix Horn. The
horn it self is square but the dispersion pattern
is not square, the 90x60. If you lay the speakers
on its side you will not physically damage the
speaker but the dispersion pattern will change.
The change may or may not be noticeable to every
ear."

They went on to suggest a larger center channel and I stated that I only had room for the RC 10 or RB 61 on it's side.

Why oh why do I keep doing this to myself?

Ok I just looked and both the RB 61 and RC 10 have the same 90 by 60 horn in the same orientation. 90 tall by 60 wide. So if I turn the RB 61 on it's side wouldn't that make it 60 tall and 90 wide for a wider dispersion field?

Ok I may be grasping at straws.

[firestorm]

The dispersion pattern is exactly what I've always heard as the con for changing the orientation of a speaker. I'm not a speaker designer though, so I don't know how orientation truely effects the sound field.

Have you considered placing the center above your TV? I have mine on a shelf, which has long legs in the back to support the rear. If that's not an option, a wall mounted shelf would work just as well. My Paradigm center is enormous, and there were virtually no cabinets that could accomodate it.

Also, an "equivalent" bookshelf can do imaging just as well, for a phantom center. The Monitor 5 isn't much different than my 7s, and my uncles Studio 20 bookshelves have better imaging than my floorstanders. Just depends on the speaker. You do need a pretty darn good speaker to seamlessly pull off a phantom center though.

[Iguana Man]

Originally Posted by EM3

Ok I just looked and both the RB 61 and RC 10 have the same 90 by 60 horn in the same orientation. 90 tall by 60 wide. So if I turn the RB 61 on it's side wouldn't that make it 60 tall and 90 wide for a wider dispersion field?

Ok I may be grasping at straws.

Well, the dimensions aren't the issue, to me. If you look, the flared outer section of the horns 'appear' to be flared (for lack of a better term) for left/right dispersion in the RB61's. Same for the dedicated centers.

Rotating 90 degrees makes that dispersion up/down, not left/right. To me, and for crying out loud I truely doubt most would hear a difference, that is what could cause less of a seemless transition between L C R.

The centers are designed the way they are for a reason, I'd like to think, so I think I'll go back and suggest the smaller center with a bump from the avr instead of turning a speaker on its side just so it fits.

Honestly EM3, I may be WAY off base here, but thats the way I see it.

[EM3]

Originally Posted by firestorm

The dispersion pattern is exactly what I've always heard as the con for changing the orientation of a speaker. I'm not a speaker designer though, so I don't know how orientation truely effects the sound field.

Have you considered placing the center above your TV? I have mine on a shelf, which has long legs in the back to support the rear. If that's not an option, a wall mounted shelf would work just as well. My Paradigm center is enormous, and there were virtually no cabinets that could accomodate it.

Also, an "equivalent" bookshelf can do imaging just as well, for a phantom center. The Monitor 5 isn't much different than my 7s, and my uncles Studio 20 bookshelves have better imaging than my floorstanders. Just depends on the speaker. You do need a pretty darn good speaker to seamlessly pull off a phantom center though.

Well I haven't thought about placing the center channel above the tv because I figure the wife would kill me. I am trying to keep the system appearance on a low key.

Man I wish there was an answer about the dispersion pattern.

[EM3]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

Well, the dimensions aren't the issue, to me. If you look, the flared outer section of the horns 'appear' to be flared (for lack of a better term) for left/right dispersion in the RB61's. Same for the dedicated centers.

Rotating 90 degrees makes that dispersion up/down, not left/right. To me, and for crying out loud I truely doubt most would hear a difference, that is what could cause less of a seemless transition between L C R.

The centers are designed the way they are for a reason, I'd like to think, so I think I'll go back and suggest the smaller center with a bump from the avr instead of turning a speaker on its side just so it fits.

Honestly EM3, I may be WAY off base here, but thats the way I see it.

That's what has me perplexed also.

Does anyone know a sound engineer?

[EM3]

I found this site if anyone is interested

http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics6.html

I need to read it tomorrow when I have time.

[firestorm]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

To me, and for crying out loud I truely doubt most would hear a difference, that is what could cause less of a seemless transition between L C R.

I would tend to agree with that. When sitting in the sweet spot, it's possible that nobody would hear a difference. Sitting off-axis is where you might (or will) notice a difference. I would still prefer a purpose built center for anything in a horizontal orientation, but it'd be worth trying a bookshelf on its side. Especially if you can return/exchange it. There are benefits to having all the same speakers up front. Timbre will not only match, it'll be exact. My center doesn't have any of the same specs (i.e. different sensitivity and different range). It'd be even better if your dealer would allow you to take both home, and do a comparison. If not, perhaps they can do an in store demo?

[EM3]

Well the center and bookshelf have the same sensitivity but the bookshelf has the wider frequecy response. I will ask about the return policy. I asked if they had the RB Series in store and they don't so the in store demo is out. I hate driving an hour and a half to return things.

[EM3]

I quit it shouldn't be this stressful! I will keep reading and listening until September.

[Iguana Man]

Relax man. Take the 61, flip it, and if you don't like it, you now have a 'rear upright center'.

Don't stress.

[EM3]

Originally Posted by Iguana Man

Relax man. Take the 61, flip it, and if you don't like it, you now have a 'rear upright center'.

Don't stress.

Nope I would have an extra speaker. My receiver only handles 5.1 It's all good I quit stressing because I am going to check the specs on my current speakers to see if the center matches what I have now and if it does I will buy the RC 10 since the specs match up with the 61. My current set up doesn't sound too bad but I want better.

[EM3]

Well I checked the specs on my HTiB system and the sensitivity ratings are different between the front's and center channel and I am happy about how they perform so the step up to the Klipsch's RB 61's and RC 10 should be even better since they match.

Thanks for the insight!